jules89
Well-Known Member
But then it can be argued about whether it's "seeing a stride" or "keeping a rhythm" as Lucinda Green famously has never seen a stride (I kid you not)
But I do agree
But I do agree
BE Safety vid - info, and suggestions wanted please.
- Thread starter kerilli
- Start date
oofadoofa
Well-Known Member
I'm not an eventer so I hope you don't mind me joining in!
I wonder whether having a system where you have to have so many lessons per year from any accredited trainer or coach and a record is kept, a bit like solicitors etc do with their Continued Professional Development. Attending any demos/lectures etc could also count towards this.
I wonder whether having a system where you have to have so many lessons per year from any accredited trainer or coach and a record is kept, a bit like solicitors etc do with their Continued Professional Development. Attending any demos/lectures etc could also count towards this.
legend
Well-Known Member
ps I'd also quite happily go for accreditation- I cannot see the difference from a litigation point of view between doing this and asking your regular instructor/trainer/whatever for their advice on whether you are ready to go BE, and how many of those posts do we see on here?
And one last one (that'll probably be unpopular but hey ho)...
There should be some sort of system in place for reviewing 'bad days', ie eliminations or falls. I've been eliminated before and not been spoken to by the TA or anyone, (which I hope/assume means I wasn't dangerous, just that my horse was being a tit that day!). However, theres nothing in place to make me learn from that experience (apart from the shame factor!) and therefore nothing in place to stop me going and and making the same mistake over and over again. IN which case it would only be a matter of time before something unsafe happened. Again, how many times have we seen/or made posts saying 'Help me, it all went horribly wrong at XXX?'
Most courses open for schooling the day after an event, how about a reduced rate for schooling and or lessons for those that got decked/eliminated the day before? I appreciate that theres only so much a nanny state can do and that people ultimately need to have the sense to make those sort of training decisions themselves, but perhaps a helping hand in the right direction would be good sometimes?
And one last one (that'll probably be unpopular but hey ho)...
There should be some sort of system in place for reviewing 'bad days', ie eliminations or falls. I've been eliminated before and not been spoken to by the TA or anyone, (which I hope/assume means I wasn't dangerous, just that my horse was being a tit that day!). However, theres nothing in place to make me learn from that experience (apart from the shame factor!) and therefore nothing in place to stop me going and and making the same mistake over and over again. IN which case it would only be a matter of time before something unsafe happened. Again, how many times have we seen/or made posts saying 'Help me, it all went horribly wrong at XXX?'
Most courses open for schooling the day after an event, how about a reduced rate for schooling and or lessons for those that got decked/eliminated the day before? I appreciate that theres only so much a nanny state can do and that people ultimately need to have the sense to make those sort of training decisions themselves, but perhaps a helping hand in the right direction would be good sometimes?
jumptoit
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
And one last one (that'll probably be unpopular but hey ho)...
There should be some sort of system in place for reviewing 'bad days', ie eliminations or falls. I've been eliminated before and not been spoken to by the TA or anyone, (which I hope/assume means I wasn't dangerous, just that my horse was being a tit that day!). However, theres nothing in place to make me learn from that experience (apart from the shame factor!) and therefore nothing in place to stop me going and and making the same mistake over and over again. IN which case it would only be a matter of time before something unsafe happened. Again, how many times have we seen/or made posts saying 'Help me, it all went horribly wrong at XXX?'
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, when I was stopped I spoke to the TD at length along with my Mum, we went through bitting etc checking I hadn't changed anything since my last run and I found it very helpful and also reassuring to be told that it was a freak incident and I think they were also pleased to hear that I thought I should have retired. They had my previous results to hand which was also helpful. Also at my next run when I was unofficially observed I spoke to them at the end and it was again reassuring to know that they thought I was perfectly safe.
Personally I agree that people need help analysing their bad days whether they were stopped or not.
And one last one (that'll probably be unpopular but hey ho)...
There should be some sort of system in place for reviewing 'bad days', ie eliminations or falls. I've been eliminated before and not been spoken to by the TA or anyone, (which I hope/assume means I wasn't dangerous, just that my horse was being a tit that day!). However, theres nothing in place to make me learn from that experience (apart from the shame factor!) and therefore nothing in place to stop me going and and making the same mistake over and over again. IN which case it would only be a matter of time before something unsafe happened. Again, how many times have we seen/or made posts saying 'Help me, it all went horribly wrong at XXX?'
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, when I was stopped I spoke to the TD at length along with my Mum, we went through bitting etc checking I hadn't changed anything since my last run and I found it very helpful and also reassuring to be told that it was a freak incident and I think they were also pleased to hear that I thought I should have retired. They had my previous results to hand which was also helpful. Also at my next run when I was unofficially observed I spoke to them at the end and it was again reassuring to know that they thought I was perfectly safe.
Personally I agree that people need help analysing their bad days whether they were stopped or not.
connie1288
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I liked the old junior accreditation system.
I'm in favour of everyone having to be assessed by a BE accredited trainer before being allowed to start BE.
I remember my accreditation with Caroline Creighton- it taught me a huge amount and she was able to recommened what level I should start at and where good runs would be.
[/ QUOTE ]
i totally agree with this. it came up at the Safety Meeting, and believe it or not was firmly vetoed, because IF someone passed a rider as, say, "good enough to go and do BE100 in their opinion" and then that rider went and had an accident at BE100, they would be able to sue the accrediting trainer, as somehow responsible for what happened...
*wanders off muttering about this ridiculously litigous society where nobody seems capable of taking the blame for their own cock-ups or misfortunes any more...*
it's a miracle we're all allowed to go xc at all any more...!
[/ QUOTE ]
When I 1st did JRNs I went to be accredited even though I was old enough to go without, friend was going any, so good xc schooling session.
I can see that in this blame culture why it doesnt work, BUT if someone has a car crash, do they go and blame the examiner??
Is there not a system on the continent that is along the lines of a certificate of competence?
For one year they also ran a system with the Pony Club? why did that fall through?
I think the FEI rule that was proposed for four star riders should be brought in across all levels, if you have a horse fall (may have been 2) you HAVE to drop back down a level, until you have qualified again. If this happens in intro/PN/N (where there are currently no qualifications (maybe this should be rethought?) then you have to go and have lessons/advice from an accredited trainer.
Sorry lots of rambles! Brain been scrambled by the number of plaits I have just inflicted on poor Tink!!
[ QUOTE ]
I liked the old junior accreditation system.
I'm in favour of everyone having to be assessed by a BE accredited trainer before being allowed to start BE.
I remember my accreditation with Caroline Creighton- it taught me a huge amount and she was able to recommened what level I should start at and where good runs would be.
[/ QUOTE ]
i totally agree with this. it came up at the Safety Meeting, and believe it or not was firmly vetoed, because IF someone passed a rider as, say, "good enough to go and do BE100 in their opinion" and then that rider went and had an accident at BE100, they would be able to sue the accrediting trainer, as somehow responsible for what happened...
*wanders off muttering about this ridiculously litigous society where nobody seems capable of taking the blame for their own cock-ups or misfortunes any more...*
it's a miracle we're all allowed to go xc at all any more...!
[/ QUOTE ]
When I 1st did JRNs I went to be accredited even though I was old enough to go without, friend was going any, so good xc schooling session.
I can see that in this blame culture why it doesnt work, BUT if someone has a car crash, do they go and blame the examiner??
Is there not a system on the continent that is along the lines of a certificate of competence?
For one year they also ran a system with the Pony Club? why did that fall through?
I think the FEI rule that was proposed for four star riders should be brought in across all levels, if you have a horse fall (may have been 2) you HAVE to drop back down a level, until you have qualified again. If this happens in intro/PN/N (where there are currently no qualifications (maybe this should be rethought?) then you have to go and have lessons/advice from an accredited trainer.
Sorry lots of rambles! Brain been scrambled by the number of plaits I have just inflicted on poor Tink!!
camilla4
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
i totally agree with this. it came up at the Safety Meeting, and believe it or not was firmly vetoed, because IF someone passed a rider as, say, "good enough to go and do BE100 in their opinion" and then that rider went and had an accident at BE100, they would be able to sue the accrediting trainer, as somehow responsible for what happened...
*wanders off muttering about this ridiculously litigous society where nobody seems capable of taking the blame for their own cock-ups or misfortunes any more...*
it's a miracle we're all allowed to go xc at all any more...!
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to say, I'm staggered at this!! Isn't this a bit like suing a university for awarding a medical degree to someone who is then guilty of incompetence?!! Marymoo's analogy with driving instructors is also good. Agree that this litigious cultture has gone waaaaaaay too far!
i totally agree with this. it came up at the Safety Meeting, and believe it or not was firmly vetoed, because IF someone passed a rider as, say, "good enough to go and do BE100 in their opinion" and then that rider went and had an accident at BE100, they would be able to sue the accrediting trainer, as somehow responsible for what happened...
*wanders off muttering about this ridiculously litigous society where nobody seems capable of taking the blame for their own cock-ups or misfortunes any more...*
it's a miracle we're all allowed to go xc at all any more...!
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to say, I'm staggered at this!! Isn't this a bit like suing a university for awarding a medical degree to someone who is then guilty of incompetence?!! Marymoo's analogy with driving instructors is also good. Agree that this litigious cultture has gone waaaaaaay too far!
teddyt
Well-Known Member
Surely someone could accredit a rider as being of a certain standard, as with a driving test, pony club test, bhs exam, etc, etc. This doesnt mean someone has passed a rider as safe in all situations, just that they are at least a minimum standard. Saying they could get sued is taking it a bit far. A vet vets a horse as suitable for purpose on that day- he cant help it if the new owner then gallops it on hard ground and jarrs it up! Ditto someone could see if a rider is capable of a certain standard or not but they then cant be sued if the said rider then rides in a way that is outside of the accreditors control
camilla4
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Surely someone could accredit a rider as being of a certain standard, as with a driving test, pony club test, bhs exam, etc, etc. This doesnt mean someone has passed a rider as safe in all situations, just that they are at least a minimum standard. Saying they could get sued is taking it a bit far. A vet vets a horse as suitable for purpose on that day- he cant help it if the new owner then gallops it on hard ground and jarrs it up! Ditto someone could see if a rider is capable of a certain standard or not but they then cant be sued if the said rider then rides in a way that is outside of the accreditors control
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly - well put!!
Surely someone could accredit a rider as being of a certain standard, as with a driving test, pony club test, bhs exam, etc, etc. This doesnt mean someone has passed a rider as safe in all situations, just that they are at least a minimum standard. Saying they could get sued is taking it a bit far. A vet vets a horse as suitable for purpose on that day- he cant help it if the new owner then gallops it on hard ground and jarrs it up! Ditto someone could see if a rider is capable of a certain standard or not but they then cant be sued if the said rider then rides in a way that is outside of the accreditors control
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly - well put!!
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
My thoughts are that new people coming into the sport and maybe even current competitors at 90/100 should have to attend a compulsory safety seminar possibly at different training venues with a trainer and riders of different abilities .I would not have the people trying to qualify mounted as I think they would learn more from watching the other riders.This could then be run relatively cheaply with just the trainer cost being offset by the charge made to those attending.I would hope that some of the establishments who run events through the year may have the foresight to offer their facilities for a minimal rate as only a small number of horses would be using the tracks.
Just another thought I think fence judges could help a lot by being prepared to draw controls attention to people they have doubts about ,most seem to not have the confidence to report incidents.I called in a rider I thought was out of control at a cci 1* only for the three previous fences to come on the radio and back me up .If a fence judge makes this sort of call the TD will try and get out to watch the rest of the round.At the end of the day everybody involved in BE wants safety as number one priority.
Just another thought I think fence judges could help a lot by being prepared to draw controls attention to people they have doubts about ,most seem to not have the confidence to report incidents.I called in a rider I thought was out of control at a cci 1* only for the three previous fences to come on the radio and back me up .If a fence judge makes this sort of call the TD will try and get out to watch the rest of the round.At the end of the day everybody involved in BE wants safety as number one priority.
connie1288
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Just another thought I think fence judges could help a lot by being prepared to draw controls attention to people they have doubts about ,most seem to not have the confidence to report incidents.I called in a rider I thought was out of control at a cci 1* only for the three previous fences to come on the radio and back me up .If a fence judge makes this sort of call the TD will try and get out to watch the rest of the round.At the end of the day everybody involved in BE wants safety as number one priority.
[/ QUOTE ]
I see where you are coming from, but some fence judges (note the some, not moaning just stating a fact) have a fairly limited knowledge of what they are watching, in terms of correctness, some of them have very little eventing (riding at any rate) experience and are simply horsey people. I think this may come out wrong, I am not trying to be rude but just what I have seen/heard.
Just another thought I think fence judges could help a lot by being prepared to draw controls attention to people they have doubts about ,most seem to not have the confidence to report incidents.I called in a rider I thought was out of control at a cci 1* only for the three previous fences to come on the radio and back me up .If a fence judge makes this sort of call the TD will try and get out to watch the rest of the round.At the end of the day everybody involved in BE wants safety as number one priority.
[/ QUOTE ]
I see where you are coming from, but some fence judges (note the some, not moaning just stating a fact) have a fairly limited knowledge of what they are watching, in terms of correctness, some of them have very little eventing (riding at any rate) experience and are simply horsey people. I think this may come out wrong, I am not trying to be rude but just what I have seen/heard.
VRIN
Well-Known Member
.. and still I wonder why we are focusing on safety at the lower levels to the exclusion of all else .. when will we address the issues where the fatalities occur..
This discussion is all very well and rightly has a place but my strong belief is this will not translate in to fewer disasters at the top end..
This discussion is all very well and rightly has a place but my strong belief is this will not translate in to fewer disasters at the top end..
teddyt
Well-Known Member
Todays grass roots riders are potentially tomorrows top riders
VRIN
Well-Known Member
but I don't think anyone would question the experience, talent, competence etc... of most of the riders involved in these tragic incidents..
Would 'accreditation' or any of our other suggestions have prevented any of the incidents that have occurred? Would anyone really suggest that perhaps if they had attended a 'safety meeting' early in their careers that there may have been a different outcome?
Would 'accreditation' or any of our other suggestions have prevented any of the incidents that have occurred? Would anyone really suggest that perhaps if they had attended a 'safety meeting' early in their careers that there may have been a different outcome?
daisycrazy
Well-Known Member
I think XC clinics should be monitored/observed and should always have two trainers present, particularly expensive clinics run by BE accredited trainers. I think there should be full accident reporting at clinics and also in lessons by BE trainers. I also think that after every clinic or lesson the BE trainer(s) should have to write a brief report (even if it is mostly just a tick sheet/multiple choice questionnaire) on each combination and state what advice has been given. These could be logged by BE and should be available to the rider and owner. Given the price of most clinics I think this is the least that should be done.
I won't be going to another XC clinic. I'd rather have one to one XC training, read it in a book, learn by watching other riders and learn by experience, whether it be on the hunting field or out eventing or teamchasing. Just because it's a clinic, doesn't make it safer than competing. On the contrary, you have somebody telling you (and everybody else in the clinic) how to do things differently and telling you what to jump and the fences are just as solid as they are on competition day.
With regard to safety generally and the difficulties in ensuring a minimum standard, I think the rider licensing system such as exists in France is a very good idea.
I won't be going to another XC clinic. I'd rather have one to one XC training, read it in a book, learn by watching other riders and learn by experience, whether it be on the hunting field or out eventing or teamchasing. Just because it's a clinic, doesn't make it safer than competing. On the contrary, you have somebody telling you (and everybody else in the clinic) how to do things differently and telling you what to jump and the fences are just as solid as they are on competition day.
With regard to safety generally and the difficulties in ensuring a minimum standard, I think the rider licensing system such as exists in France is a very good idea.
teddyt
Well-Known Member
Good point but i see nothing wrong in trying to improve safety for everyone, not just the top riders. The OP wanted no cost ideas. To improve safety at the top end will likely require ideas that cost money- fence design, research into trajectories, etc.
Who knows? This conversation may save a life or it may set the ball rolling on an idea that could help the top riders too. nothing wrong with that
Who knows? This conversation may save a life or it may set the ball rolling on an idea that could help the top riders too. nothing wrong with that
camilla4
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[
I see where you are coming from, but some fence judges (note the some, not moaning just stating a fact) have a fairly limited knowledge of what they are watching, in terms of correctness, some of them have very little eventing (riding at any rate) experience and are simply horsey people. I think this may come out wrong, I am not trying to be rude but just what I have seen/heard.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd say that was fair comment Marymoo - I know a lot of people who fence judge and I think many of them would be the first to doubt their competence to make this call. The idea would be great in principle, but IM(V)HO opinion, probably not entirely workable.
[
I see where you are coming from, but some fence judges (note the some, not moaning just stating a fact) have a fairly limited knowledge of what they are watching, in terms of correctness, some of them have very little eventing (riding at any rate) experience and are simply horsey people. I think this may come out wrong, I am not trying to be rude but just what I have seen/heard.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd say that was fair comment Marymoo - I know a lot of people who fence judge and I think many of them would be the first to doubt their competence to make this call. The idea would be great in principle, but IM(V)HO opinion, probably not entirely workable.
Fiona
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Todays grass roots riders are potentially tomorrows top riders
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about this statement, am tending to agree with whoever said that addressing riding standards at intro will not affect accidents at the top level. One of the irish fatalities came up through the whole junior/joung rider system and trained/stayed with Ginny Leng's trainer. No-one can say that she wasn't a fantastic rider with great family and technical back up. It didn't stop her having a rotational fall.
There are so many variables to consider as well as the horse and rider combination ie time of day, shadows/distractions on fence etc.
Sorry - gone of on a bit of a ramble there
******
This post really is fantastic - plenty of great ideas for K to take back to BE.
My favourite suggestions are the course walks taken by pro riders (one of these ran at Necarne for the * last year and was really well received even at that level), and the suggestion that after a horse fall the horse/rider must move down a level for a run and/or have an assessment lesson.
Fiona
Todays grass roots riders are potentially tomorrows top riders
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about this statement, am tending to agree with whoever said that addressing riding standards at intro will not affect accidents at the top level. One of the irish fatalities came up through the whole junior/joung rider system and trained/stayed with Ginny Leng's trainer. No-one can say that she wasn't a fantastic rider with great family and technical back up. It didn't stop her having a rotational fall.
There are so many variables to consider as well as the horse and rider combination ie time of day, shadows/distractions on fence etc.
Sorry - gone of on a bit of a ramble there
******
This post really is fantastic - plenty of great ideas for K to take back to BE.
My favourite suggestions are the course walks taken by pro riders (one of these ran at Necarne for the * last year and was really well received even at that level), and the suggestion that after a horse fall the horse/rider must move down a level for a run and/or have an assessment lesson.
Fiona
lucretia
Well-Known Member
QR
Havent read the whole thread Kerilli but here are my thoughts
1. Any rider in a BE video of any sort should be DEMONSTRABLY safely attired or else people who dont know wont know that Angus' BP was 'under his shirt'. I must have been psycic (sp?) about that btw.
And so should their horse.
2. Even if they are going to use a model and as i said yesterday i can see why they did, then lets have one of the accredited trainers teaching/commentating so the mistakes are identified and then rectified.
3. I do believe it would be better to use real models and i bet if you offered a training session with yogi for example on condition that you would be filmed you would get a few takers.
4. The riders in the above should be of the standard the video is being aimed at. perhaps it could be divided into beginner, int and adv?
and i agree with Teddyt about todays riders being tommorows stars and that is why i firmly believe correct practise need to be instilled early. As i also said in meetings and letters, when BE intorduced Intro and then training classes they took people away from the traditional training grounds of hunter trials and riding clubs in a great many cases, which did provide a certain amount of 'on the job' training and they have to take responsibility for that.
Affiliated eventing used to be something to aspire too once you had been through the Pony Club or had a bit of training or whatever but now the level of entry has been dropped that is not the case and i feel the standard of riding is currently suffering and not just at basic level either. A well made video would help address this but perhaps having the riders asssessed (and they used to have to be assessed for JRN's didnt they?) by a competent panel. I do not believe there would be a case for litigation any more than there currently is, because horses are a risk, everyone involved with them knows that and you cannot possible prepare for every eventuality when BOTH parts of the partnership have minds of their own.
Hope thats constructive enough Paul
.
Havent read the whole thread Kerilli but here are my thoughts
1. Any rider in a BE video of any sort should be DEMONSTRABLY safely attired or else people who dont know wont know that Angus' BP was 'under his shirt'. I must have been psycic (sp?) about that btw.
2. Even if they are going to use a model and as i said yesterday i can see why they did, then lets have one of the accredited trainers teaching/commentating so the mistakes are identified and then rectified.
3. I do believe it would be better to use real models and i bet if you offered a training session with yogi for example on condition that you would be filmed you would get a few takers.
4. The riders in the above should be of the standard the video is being aimed at. perhaps it could be divided into beginner, int and adv?
and i agree with Teddyt about todays riders being tommorows stars and that is why i firmly believe correct practise need to be instilled early. As i also said in meetings and letters, when BE intorduced Intro and then training classes they took people away from the traditional training grounds of hunter trials and riding clubs in a great many cases, which did provide a certain amount of 'on the job' training and they have to take responsibility for that.
Affiliated eventing used to be something to aspire too once you had been through the Pony Club or had a bit of training or whatever but now the level of entry has been dropped that is not the case and i feel the standard of riding is currently suffering and not just at basic level either. A well made video would help address this but perhaps having the riders asssessed (and they used to have to be assessed for JRN's didnt they?) by a competent panel. I do not believe there would be a case for litigation any more than there currently is, because horses are a risk, everyone involved with them knows that and you cannot possible prepare for every eventuality when BOTH parts of the partnership have minds of their own.
Hope thats constructive enough Paul
tigers_eye
Well-Known Member
Chloe and others' idea of local training, forming a pool of riders who know each other, all strikes me as everything having come full circle and (if BE adopted this) TOTALLY replacing the RC movement. When I was a tiddler and my mum evented I remember everybody was a member of an RC - if you had a horse that was what you did! And if you were really good and wanted to jump massive stuff you went and joined the BHS
, yes it was that long ago, and went affiliated eventing. I'm not saying it's right, and that the sport hasn't progressed, I'm just bemoaning the encroachment of the RC's remit.
On another point, I know BE events are very hectic and usually run absolutely to capacity, but I would think there are enough people involved to make it very clear to riders, at every level, that anyone seen riding unacceptably (which includes a tired or overfaced horse) will be pulled up and reprimanded, for the good of the sport. At every FEI event I have been to for the last two seasons this has been impressed upon the riders with the utmost gravity at the rider meetings.
On another point, I know BE events are very hectic and usually run absolutely to capacity, but I would think there are enough people involved to make it very clear to riders, at every level, that anyone seen riding unacceptably (which includes a tired or overfaced horse) will be pulled up and reprimanded, for the good of the sport. At every FEI event I have been to for the last two seasons this has been impressed upon the riders with the utmost gravity at the rider meetings.
teddyt
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Todays grass roots riders are potentially tomorrows top riders
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about this statement, am tending to agree with whoever said that addressing riding standards at intro will not affect accidents at the top level. One of the irish fatalities came up through the whole junior/joung rider system and trained/stayed with Ginny Leng's trainer. No-one can say that she wasn't a fantastic rider with great family and technical back up. It didn't stop her having a rotational fall.
There are so many variables to consider as well as the horse and rider combination ie time of day, shadows/distractions on fence etc.
Sorry - gone of on a bit of a ramble there
******
This post really is fantastic - plenty of great ideas for K to take back to BE.
My favourite suggestions are the course walks taken by pro riders (one of these ran at Necarne for the * last year and was really well received even at that level), and the suggestion that after a horse fall the horse/rider must move down a level for a run and/or have an assessment lesson.
Fiona
[/ QUOTE ]
I think people are misunderstanding my point. I never said or meant that the riders who have had such awful falls werent experienced/lacked background/knowledge, etc. But if every grass roots rider has a good background then it will reduce accidents. Not stop them but reduce them or their severity.
To put it another way- you cant say its not worth accrediting lower level riders or them attending a safety meeting because they arent riding at the top level. One day they might be and these practices may have helped them to stay safe on their way to the higher level, or even at the level they are at. I dont see that as worthless.
[ QUOTE ]
Todays grass roots riders are potentially tomorrows top riders
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about this statement, am tending to agree with whoever said that addressing riding standards at intro will not affect accidents at the top level. One of the irish fatalities came up through the whole junior/joung rider system and trained/stayed with Ginny Leng's trainer. No-one can say that she wasn't a fantastic rider with great family and technical back up. It didn't stop her having a rotational fall.
There are so many variables to consider as well as the horse and rider combination ie time of day, shadows/distractions on fence etc.
Sorry - gone of on a bit of a ramble there
******
This post really is fantastic - plenty of great ideas for K to take back to BE.
My favourite suggestions are the course walks taken by pro riders (one of these ran at Necarne for the * last year and was really well received even at that level), and the suggestion that after a horse fall the horse/rider must move down a level for a run and/or have an assessment lesson.
Fiona
[/ QUOTE ]
I think people are misunderstanding my point. I never said or meant that the riders who have had such awful falls werent experienced/lacked background/knowledge, etc. But if every grass roots rider has a good background then it will reduce accidents. Not stop them but reduce them or their severity.
To put it another way- you cant say its not worth accrediting lower level riders or them attending a safety meeting because they arent riding at the top level. One day they might be and these practices may have helped them to stay safe on their way to the higher level, or even at the level they are at. I dont see that as worthless.
lucretia
Well-Known Member
and here's a radical idea. How about asking the membership BEFORE the videos are made, what approach they think might best help them..........
coedcae
Well-Known Member
Having done a few BE80T's and one BE90 with training this season, I think BE should have more of these classes, even up to Novice level.
I wouldn't class myself as particularly novice but I haven't done that much competing. Having someone on the ground, you know is an accredited trainer, has been invaluable for me this season whilst competing my young horse.
We all know what its like at a competition when the nerves set in, or you are concentrating so hard on remembering the course that you forget the minor details like approach, pace and rhythm.
At these events the trainer has been available at all three phases, helping you to warm up for dressage, sjing and xc. At Bricky, we had xc course and sjing course walks and an opportunity to discuss our dressage tests afterwards with the judge.
I learnt so much about approaching jumps on the xc, what to look out for on different ground etc it was fantastic.
Anyone of the trainers, I'm sure could have alerted the appropriate official and stated their concerns over any of the riders.
This could go further to having a trainer or someone in xc control, purely for safety concerns, who could then approach any rider afterwards if they felt they were riding dangerously etc.
I think its assumed that you are at a certain level if you compete BE but I was staggered listening to the dressage judge go through the tests with people and they asking her what 'hollow' and 'not tracking up' meant
You wonder if some people have any lessons before competing
I wouldn't class myself as particularly novice but I haven't done that much competing. Having someone on the ground, you know is an accredited trainer, has been invaluable for me this season whilst competing my young horse.
We all know what its like at a competition when the nerves set in, or you are concentrating so hard on remembering the course that you forget the minor details like approach, pace and rhythm.
At these events the trainer has been available at all three phases, helping you to warm up for dressage, sjing and xc. At Bricky, we had xc course and sjing course walks and an opportunity to discuss our dressage tests afterwards with the judge.
I learnt so much about approaching jumps on the xc, what to look out for on different ground etc it was fantastic.
Anyone of the trainers, I'm sure could have alerted the appropriate official and stated their concerns over any of the riders.
This could go further to having a trainer or someone in xc control, purely for safety concerns, who could then approach any rider afterwards if they felt they were riding dangerously etc.
I think its assumed that you are at a certain level if you compete BE but I was staggered listening to the dressage judge go through the tests with people and they asking her what 'hollow' and 'not tracking up' meant
Fiona
Well-Known Member
Hi Teddyt - I do understand the point you are making.
However I think most people on HHO seem to accept that there are two seperate issues, one bad/unsafe riding at lower levels (which generally lead to only a minor injury) and secondly the very low incidence of very serious or fatal falls at the top level.
Have British Eventing categorically said though that they ARE treating these as two seperate issues, or is the recent focus on safety by BE/EI (mostly aimed at newbies or lower level riders meant to convince us that they are taking safety (at higher levels) seriously.
I would have more faith that they were taking safety seriously if the use of frangible pins and/or the US collapsible table type fence were being introduced more generally ie why was the wishing well fence after the water at Bramham not equiped with frangible pins.
Fiona
However I think most people on HHO seem to accept that there are two seperate issues, one bad/unsafe riding at lower levels (which generally lead to only a minor injury) and secondly the very low incidence of very serious or fatal falls at the top level.
Have British Eventing categorically said though that they ARE treating these as two seperate issues, or is the recent focus on safety by BE/EI (mostly aimed at newbies or lower level riders meant to convince us that they are taking safety (at higher levels) seriously.
I would have more faith that they were taking safety seriously if the use of frangible pins and/or the US collapsible table type fence were being introduced more generally ie why was the wishing well fence after the water at Bramham not equiped with frangible pins.
Fiona
kerilli
Well-Known Member
coedcae, glad to hear you had such a positive experience at Training events. i've heard very good and bad of them... someone pm'd me to tell me about one they did, where the Trainers were standing around drinking coffee and chatting and totally ignoring the riders in sj warm-up, some of whom were not exactly competent, allegedly. i'm sure some are brilliant and enthusiastic, others less so, as in everything...
not sure about having a trainer in xc control, i've helped out in there and often you can only see the first and last couple of fences, not always indicative enough.
afaik the trainers at BE T classes are not paid for the day. If this was going to become more widespread they would have to be i think, say £100 per day each (as it is usually a weekend, a day when they could be teaching or competing etc). would riders be prepared to pay an additional fee for this?
not sure about having a trainer in xc control, i've helped out in there and often you can only see the first and last couple of fences, not always indicative enough.
afaik the trainers at BE T classes are not paid for the day. If this was going to become more widespread they would have to be i think, say £100 per day each (as it is usually a weekend, a day when they could be teaching or competing etc). would riders be prepared to pay an additional fee for this?
VRIN
Well-Known Member
''..Have British Eventing categorically said though that they ARE treating these as two seperate issues, or is the recent focus on safety by BE/EI (mostly aimed at newbies or lower level riders meant to convince us that they are taking safety (at higher levels) seriously...'
(don't know how to do quotes)
But... my concern too
(don't know how to do quotes)
But... my concern too
coedcae
Well-Known Member
Yes, I had wondered about the cost. I think you are right I doubt competitors would be willing to pay even more to enter. And I expect BE will say there isnt any funding for it, but if they are really concerned about safety and improving riding, I do think having trainers on the ground is the way forward. Maybe I am more proactive than other riders but I actually appraoached the trainers and asked their opinion. They wouldn't have had a chance to stand around and chat with each other when I was warming up
I haven't been in xc control so was unaware of how little they see but I did feel one thing that was missing from the BE80T's was the trainer being around when you returned from the xc. They could quickly assess if the horse was blowing too hard, if you were out of control or in front of the movement, by seeing you over the last couple of fences.
The other thing I thought of was asking BE accredited trainers to be more assertive when teaching if they think someone isnt up to doing BE. We have one trainer round here who has told someone I know they aren't ready to do an Intro. Which I think is good, might not get them many happy customers though
I haven't been in xc control so was unaware of how little they see but I did feel one thing that was missing from the BE80T's was the trainer being around when you returned from the xc. They could quickly assess if the horse was blowing too hard, if you were out of control or in front of the movement, by seeing you over the last couple of fences.
The other thing I thought of was asking BE accredited trainers to be more assertive when teaching if they think someone isnt up to doing BE. We have one trainer round here who has told someone I know they aren't ready to do an Intro. Which I think is good, might not get them many happy customers though
charliebo
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
and here's a radical idea. How about asking the membership BEFORE the videos are made, what approach they think might best help them..........
[/ QUOTE ]
That might be a bit too radical for BE!
On a safety note, could they remind riders that their stirrup bars should be in the unlocked position (met a saddler the other day who was amazed that I rode with the stirrup bars open!) and also that it is safer not to tuck your stirrup leather ends into the little loop on the side of the saddle flap (The loops were origionaly designed for surcingles, to keep them away from the stirrup bars). If your foot gets stuck in the stirrup when falling, having the leathers through those loops could keep you attached to the horse for a second too long.
and here's a radical idea. How about asking the membership BEFORE the videos are made, what approach they think might best help them..........
[/ QUOTE ]
That might be a bit too radical for BE!
On a safety note, could they remind riders that their stirrup bars should be in the unlocked position (met a saddler the other day who was amazed that I rode with the stirrup bars open!) and also that it is safer not to tuck your stirrup leather ends into the little loop on the side of the saddle flap (The loops were origionaly designed for surcingles, to keep them away from the stirrup bars). If your foot gets stuck in the stirrup when falling, having the leathers through those loops could keep you attached to the horse for a second too long.
Maizy
Well-Known Member
I've not read everyones posts so forgive me if someone has already said this and it does echo along Chloes community idea.
First I should also point out I've never ridden BE but would like to think it's in the pipeline - now I've got the right horse in the making, and in a year or two having more time and money will hopefully allow a little indulgence!
Only who's going to say 'I think you're (horse &rider) ready now?' For an 'outsider'/ avid unmounted eventing follower, how will I know? Apart from a decent instructor (as mentioned not enough time/money is spent on lessons) or being brave enough to ask for cc on here. I'm waffling but...
Back in my days of Pony Club and camps, before we could compete at certain levels we had to attend a certain number of relevant Rallies!
We met new friends, gained knowledge and confidence. If BE could introduce 'rallies' making it compulsory for riders to attend say a min. two per year relevant to the level they complete at I believe this would go along way to help riders and improve safety and provide a point of contact for local help.
In my profession we have to do a certain number of hours CPD Continued Practical Development or LLL Life Long Learning, which in essence is what Im suggesting.
Also finally, a lot is in the name bring back the Pre Novice, Novice, .Advanced levels, BE90, BE100 has no context.
First I should also point out I've never ridden BE but would like to think it's in the pipeline - now I've got the right horse in the making, and in a year or two having more time and money will hopefully allow a little indulgence!
Only who's going to say 'I think you're (horse &rider) ready now?' For an 'outsider'/ avid unmounted eventing follower, how will I know? Apart from a decent instructor (as mentioned not enough time/money is spent on lessons) or being brave enough to ask for cc on here. I'm waffling but...
Back in my days of Pony Club and camps, before we could compete at certain levels we had to attend a certain number of relevant Rallies!
We met new friends, gained knowledge and confidence. If BE could introduce 'rallies' making it compulsory for riders to attend say a min. two per year relevant to the level they complete at I believe this would go along way to help riders and improve safety and provide a point of contact for local help.
In my profession we have to do a certain number of hours CPD Continued Practical Development or LLL Life Long Learning, which in essence is what Im suggesting.
Also finally, a lot is in the name bring back the Pre Novice, Novice, .Advanced levels, BE90, BE100 has no context.
NeilM
Well-Known Member
I am not an eventer but a very interested bystander. From the HT's and XC's I have watched, it strikes me that there are two types of riders. Those, such as myself, who are novices, make mistakes, know it, acknowledge it and will happily attend training sessions / courses to rectify those mistakes and improve. Then there are those who are blissfully unaware of just how dreadful their riding is (and we have all seen them). Therefore in order to identify those who would not attend training courses, because they think they do not need training, a combination approach of monitoring, training and mentoring would help scoop up all who need intervention.
I don't know what is involved in jump judging, but if it were possible for the jump judges to be given a tick box or brief comment page, they would be the ideal people to monitor. If those comments were analysed at the end of each event, it would quickly become apparent if a rider was having a poor days riding or was making the same errors on a regular basis. Training could then be offered / suggested and a mentoring system put in place.
As well as being a rider, I am an archer. Training is compulsory across all archery disciplines, before a new shooter is allowed to take part in competition and in certain associations there is a requirement to have competed in a number of regional competitions before a person is allowed to compete at larger National competitions. In my dim and distant past I drove single seater racing cars for a hobby. Again training is compulsory. It seems logical that at the very least, training should be recommended prior to a person starting to compete at any level.
I don't know what is involved in jump judging, but if it were possible for the jump judges to be given a tick box or brief comment page, they would be the ideal people to monitor. If those comments were analysed at the end of each event, it would quickly become apparent if a rider was having a poor days riding or was making the same errors on a regular basis. Training could then be offered / suggested and a mentoring system put in place.
As well as being a rider, I am an archer. Training is compulsory across all archery disciplines, before a new shooter is allowed to take part in competition and in certain associations there is a requirement to have competed in a number of regional competitions before a person is allowed to compete at larger National competitions. In my dim and distant past I drove single seater racing cars for a hobby. Again training is compulsory. It seems logical that at the very least, training should be recommended prior to a person starting to compete at any level.
oldvic
Well-Known Member
Rallies, training or seminars - compulsory or not - are only of value to those who WANT to learn. There are many that are quite happy doing what they are doing and totally unaware of the need/desire to improve. These are hopefully at a low level and the horses they ride will probably have developed a heightened sense of survival - hence they are still competing! Scarey to watch and not really what we want but some people just want to enjoy doing what they are doing.
Perhaps the more dangerous ones are those whose ambitions - or those of their parents or owners - overtake their ability and the ability/level of their horse. These are probably the ones that need attention. They will have trainers but just because they are qualified to ride at a level doesn't mean that they are ready or possibly ever will be.
Perhaps the more dangerous ones are those whose ambitions - or those of their parents or owners - overtake their ability and the ability/level of their horse. These are probably the ones that need attention. They will have trainers but just because they are qualified to ride at a level doesn't mean that they are ready or possibly ever will be.