BE trialling stopwatches at all levels next season

EventingMum

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What are your thoughts?

Personally I don't like the idea, I can see a lot of issues with inexperienced riders chasing the time and riding dangerously when doing so especially towards the end of the course instead of riding in a consistent rhythm. To use a stop watch effectively xc you really need to have wheeled the course and identified your minute markers and not many people will do that. A lot of people only walk the course once at 1 day events, many on the day of competitions so it wouldn't be feasible to measure when the course is in use with a previous section or class and wheeling it on your first walk is impracticable as then you're still comparing approaches to fences and deciding on best lines. Inexperienced riders need to be focussing on the job in hand and monitoring a stop watch distracts from other more important aspects of riding xc. Those riding inexperienced horses shoould be focussed on giving the horse a confidence building round and not pushing them too much . I imagine most experienced riders won't bother with them and will rely on their own judgement of pace too. I wouldn't mind seeing them allowed at the Grassroots finals where riders tend to have some experience under their belts but otherwise I think the current rules should stand. I'm interested to know what others think?
 

Arniebear

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i have to admit i feel the same, ive only just started BE and next season will be on a 4 yr old as my 8 yr old is broken, i wont bother purchasing one as i know i wont look at it anyway!! id rather ride my horse in a constant rhythm then chase the clock, i do fear there may be some clock chasers who appear at 80 and 90 which wont do the image of the sport any good in my eyes, at that level you should be concentrating on the fences and your horse not your wrist
 

Casey76

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Minute markers are not usually placed on British xc courses?

They are standard in French Poney and Club Classes, and there is always a minimum and maximum time posted on the schedule, outside of either will gain you time penalties.
 

smja

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Being able to use a stopwatch at lower levels would have helped me...in the sense that I wouldn't have to wait around to find out what my time was, I could just look at my watch :)
I generally don't look at my stopwatch on the way round (yet, anyway, I'm only at Nov) but it's useful to see immediately how far under/over you are, it helps me refine my judgement of pace.

TBH I think that if you can't read how your horse is feeling and go at an appropriate speed for them and the ground conditions, you have no business to be riding at all.
 

EventingMum

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Minute markers are not usually placed on British xc courses?

They are standard in French Poney and Club Classes, and there is always a minimum and maximum time posted on the schedule, outside of either will gain you time penalties.

No, you have to wheel the course and decide where they are yourself, although optimum time is posted. So ideally you need to walk the course several times, first to know where you are going and what alternatives are available, second to refine your lines, third to measure and decide on minute markers and fourth to cement it in your mind. This is what was our minimum when my son was doing 3 day events - at one day events he always tried to walk courses twice if at all possible though many don't, my Pony Club kids often object when I get them to walk more than once! I understand that if you just use it to get an idea of your finishing time it's easy to use but equally then a helper could just click a stop watch as you cross the start and finish line, there's nothing to be gained wearing it during the round.
 

Goldenstar

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Well if it stops the madness of being expected to hand over your Rolex in the collecting ringI am all for it .
When I started you chose to wear stop watch if wished ,I see no evidence that people ride better without at the lower levels.
Let people chose .
 

PorkChop

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Well if it stops the madness of being expected to hand over your Rolex in the collecting ringI am all for it .

This! Ridiculous!

My teenage daughter started eventing last year at the lower levels - I actually would have no problem with her wearing one.

I actually think only a few would ride to the time - I think it would be really useful to know at the end of your round if you were close to the optimum time :)
 

EventingMum

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Well if it stops the madness of being expected to hand over your Rolex in the collecting ringI am all for it .
When I started you chose to wear stop watch if wished ,I see no evidence that people ride better without at the lower levels.
Let people chose .

I honestly don't think that's madness just a rule, leave your Rolex at home or in the lorry before going xc - if you're lucky enough to own one rather than a Timex! It just becomes a habit - watch off, stock pin off, xc top, body protector and medical card (when you needed them) on and the rider's ready for xc.
 

NaeNae87

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We have been able to use watches in Aus for 11 or so years at all levels.

We walk the course and use minute markers that day before... a lot of the courses don't change drastically at all each year, so you roughly know where the markers are anyway if you have ridden the course at least once previously.

Just because you can use a watch, doesn't mean you need to use it. EventingMum, as you said... those inexperienced riders can have a watch, but that doesn't mean they have to ride for time. It just means that they have more of an idea how fast they need to go. I have only just started riding for time myself (I started eventing in 2012) and have had inexperienced horses, so it was a case of the blind leading the blind. Only in the last 12 months have I felt confident on my pony to ride at the required time and previously, although I had a watch, I found if I wasn't listening for the beeps, the adrenaline blocked it out as I was focused on riding safely.
My TB just upgraded and this whole season I focused on building his confidence. This upcoming season, I will be attacking the courses more with him and aiming to come home clean rather than too slow and boost confidence, as he doesn't really need it any more. He is fine with the questions and with the speed.

It's more about common sense. Sometimes the conditions might not allow you to ride to time, so you go around safe, you or your horse could be green... whatever. It's up to the riders how they choose to use their watch. It's not a bad thing at all. :)

Over here though, any instances of dangerous riding (too fast, out of control, etc) are dealt with swiftly (thankfully they are very few and far between).
 

Branna

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I compete at 90 on a quick mare and tend to make the time easily.

I don't plan to look at a stopwatch on the way around but am excited about borrowing my oh's garmin watch so I can assess speed changes/incline and the route on the way back! I have used it at clear round xc before and found it was a really useful tool to assess your round and where you loose time. For example you can assess what speed you need to go in between fences in order to make up for setting up for coffins/turning questions etc.

I think more riders would be better to look at that sort of thing rather than just look at a stopwatch, I'd be worried people would be more inclined to chase the clock towards the end of the course!
 

Lyle

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Just a perspective from a country that uses watches at all levels... I don't understand how not having a watch makes it safer? Don't riders just ride at a cracking pace to ensure they are under? I think watches are excellent for the inexperienced, if they use them with minute markers. An experienced rider will be able to judge and adjust their pace around a course more easily than a less experienced rider. Watches are useless and dangerous if riders don't look at them until they are near then end, then panic and fang home. If you use minute markers, Riders learn to ride to, and adjust pace from the outset over little fences. With things like the XC course app, you can get your minute markers as you walk the course without needing to wheel. I think it's great, riders learn to judge the course sections which will chew up time, and therefore identify the areas of course where the pace needs to be upped. Learning this skill over 95cm is a much better option than turning up to your first CCI1* and having a crack!
In out EA 80 and EA95 classes, there is a XC rule whereby you can only come in, no faster than 20 seconds under the optimum time. So if a course has an optimum time of 4.20, you have to arrive somewhere between 4.00 and 4.20. if you are less than 4.00 you will receive .4 of a penalty per second under. This stops riders belting home on their TB's, therefore riders use their watches and ride within the course limits.
 

NaeNae87

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Just a perspective from a country that uses watches at all levels... I don't understand how not having a watch makes it safer? Don't riders just ride at a cracking pace to ensure they are under? I think watches are excellent for the inexperienced, if they use them with minute markers. An experienced rider will be able to judge and adjust their pace around a course more easily than a less experienced rider. Watches are useless and dangerous if riders don't look at them until they are near then end, then panic and fang home. If you use minute markers, Riders learn to ride to, and adjust pace from the outset over little fences. With things like the XC course app, you can get your minute markers as you walk the course without needing to wheel. I think it's great, riders learn to judge the course sections which will chew up time, and therefore identify the areas of course where the pace needs to be upped. Learning this skill over 95cm is a much better option than turning up to your first CCI1* and having a crack!
In out EA 80 and EA95 classes, there is a XC rule whereby you can only come in, no faster than 20 seconds under the optimum time. So if a course has an optimum time of 4.20, you have to arrive somewhere between 4.00 and 4.20. if you are less than 4.00 you will receive .4 of a penalty per second under. This stops riders belting home on their TB's, therefore riders use their watches and ride within the course limits.

^^^^^
This :)
 

Goldenstar

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Personally I think the earlier you learn to use a watch while riding the easier it will be.
I was not a watch wearer when I was competing and always struggled with using one when I was doing a three day .
I might have been better to wear one all the time so handling it became second nature , at least this way people have a choice of how they train themselves .
Rules already exist to deal with bad riding they just need to find efficient not to heavy handled ways of making the system work and be tireless in working all the time to ensure that the competitions ( courses )themselves are constantly training the riders to do the right things at every level , just because courses are at the lower level does not mean that accuracy questions can not be asked at key points to slow riders down .
Of course the emphasis in course designing is at the top end of the sport , that's where most people are killed so it's logical but it would be interesting to know how much thought goes into how you use the course to influence the riders at the lower level .
The vast majority of the really bad falls are at the higher levels anyway .
 

ihatework

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Where on earth is the evidence that riding with a stopwatch would make someone ride more recklessly?

IME poor riders will always be poor riders.

I think stopwatches should be allowed at all levels and riders given the information they need to be able to use them, and judge pace correctly.
 

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Personally there is no way at this stage I would be able to also monitor the time, all I'm worried about is going the right way, staying in a good consistent rhythm and getting from one side of the jump to the other in one piece and with the horse...!!!
 

Welly

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At last some sense from BE This is not a new idea in the old days we all wore watches. How can you work out what speed to go at if don't know how fast you are going! As for those that think it might be difficult these watches peep at you every 60seconds so you don't have to even look at them.
 

MissTyc

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I grew up/learnt to ride in France and had a stop-watch for XC from age 12 ish. I think it's an important skill to learn to use. Disaster if people get one just for the day, but would be great to see people using them more in training and really learning how to use to it help develop and maintain a good pace. Going round my little courses here in the UK I still occasionally expect the beepbeep.
 

FfionWinnie

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I think it would help me. We aren't that fast due to me not being fit enough. Reckon we could go a bit faster next year, which would be no where near dangerous. I use a sports tracker all the time when riding and I am getting better at estimating how long things will take due to that. I'm sure a stop watch would be similar for XC.
 
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EventingMum

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Just a perspective from a country that uses watches at all levels... I don't understand how not having a watch makes it safer? Don't riders just ride at a cracking pace to ensure they are under? I think watches are excellent for the inexperienced, if they use them with minute markers. An experienced rider will be able to judge and adjust their pace around a course more easily than a less experienced rider. Watches are useless and dangerous if riders don't look at them until they are near then end, then panic and fang home. If you use minute markers, Riders learn to ride to, and adjust pace from the outset over little fences. With things like the XC course app, you can get your minute markers as you walk the course without needing to wheel. I think it's great, riders learn to judge the course sections which will chew up time, and therefore identify the areas of course where the pace needs to be upped. Learning this skill over 95cm is a much better option than turning up to your first CCI1* and having a crack!
In out EA 80 and EA95 classes, there is a XC rule whereby you can only come in, no faster than 20 seconds under the optimum time. So if a course has an optimum time of 4.20, you have to arrive somewhere between 4.00 and 4.20. if you are less than 4.00 you will receive .4 of a penalty per second under. This stops riders belting home on their TB's, therefore riders use their watches and ride within the course limits.

I agree but my concern is that many riders turn up at events on the day they are competing and walk the course for the first time then. There are no "official" minute markers in the UK, you have to measure and decide on them for yourself so there's no way that's feasible if you just see the course for the first time an hour or two before your dressage and at most events the xc starts at 9 or 9.30am. My point was many riders will be tempted to go flat out over the final part of the course if they suddenly see they are down on the clock. Obviously if it slows down those that ride flat out it would be a good thing. I'm all for learning to use them at lower levels if there were "official" minute markers but I feel time constraints will prevent many riders being able to measure their own on the day. Far better to practice over a set measured distance at home to develop a feel for the correct pace and then focus on the other technicalities of riding xc when at the event such as where to go steady set up carefully for a fence and where time can be made up. Too fast time plenalties do exist here in the UK too. I do appreciate many riders have excellent trainers who will keep them right and educate them correctly but a minority sadly don't have and they are the ones I fear for. My view is that time should be the last consideration when learning the ropes eventing - safe, balanced rounds demonstrating an understanding of different terrain and fence types should be the priority, once this is established then the speed element can be addressed. I do, however understand others may be of a different opinion.
 

kassieg

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I agree about not having to worry about taking my watch off to go xc haha

I personally won't be using 1 as will be on a 4 year old next year

I think for being on an older horse it will be good for people who struggle to judge their speed on different types of track & in different ground conditions :)

Personally I think they will be a good reflecting tool but I think there is a danger to them that people chase the clock & cause problems for their horses. However jump judges can report people for riding dangerously and even pull them up so you would hope that would be in people's minds to not be silly with it
 

Lyle

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I agree but my concern is that many riders turn up at events on the day they are competing and walk the course for the first time then. There are no "official" minute markers in the UK, you have to measure and decide on them for yourself so there's no way that's feasible if you just see the course for the first time an hour or two before your dressage and at most events the xc starts at 9 or 9.30am. My point was many riders will be tempted to go flat out over the final part of the course if they suddenly see they are down on the clock. Obviously if it slows down those that ride flat out it would be a good thing. I'm all for learning to use them at lower levels if there were "official" minute markers but I feel time constraints will prevent many riders being able to measure their own on the day. Far better to practice over a set measured distance at home to develop a feel for the correct pace and then focus on the other technicalities of riding xc when at the event such as where to go steady set up carefully for a fence and where time can be made up. Too fast time plenalties do exist here in the UK too. I do appreciate many riders have excellent trainers who will keep them right and educate them correctly but a minority sadly don't have and they are the ones I fear for. My view is that time should be the last consideration when learning the ropes eventing - safe, balanced rounds demonstrating an understanding of different terrain and fence types should be the priority, once this is established then the speed element can be addressed. I do, however understand others may be of a different opinion.

In Australia we certainly don't have official minute markers! Most lower level courses are walked once a few hours before you go round. That's why I suggested the XC course walk App for phones. You give the app the speed, the distance of the course, and then start walking, the app tracks you via GPs and is super accurate. You can take photos of each fence, and the app will alert you when you've reached a minute marker so you can stop walking and look around you for a landmark. That said, it's not hard to wheel while you do your course walk, done that many times when the stakes have been high! At least you end up with a general idea of where you're mean to be. ☺
 

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I don't think that the addition of stopwatches to the lower levels of BE will make it any more scary than it already is! I have experienced low level eventing, BE and BRC, both as a competitor and fence judge and there are some pretty shocking sights.
 

Sammy1983

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In Australia we certainly don't have official minute markers! Most lower level courses are walked once a few hours before you go round. That's why I suggested the XC course walk App for phones. You give the app the speed, the distance of the course, and then start walking, the app tracks you via GPs and is super accurate. You can take photos of each fence, and the app will alert you when you've reached a minute marker so you can stop walking and look around you for a landmark. That said, it's not hard to wheel while you do your course walk, done that many times when the stakes have been high! At least you end up with a general idea of where you're mean to be. ☺
Lyle which app is this it sounds very useful but I can't seem to find it
 
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