Beating a horse who refuses?

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Rollin

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This is a bit of a rant. My Shagya stallion is as honest as the day is long. In the UK he was trained by Seb. Poirier, his second BS Novice was at Felbridge, where he had a refusal in the clear round and then went on to jump two clear rounds. It is very rare for him to stop.

This season, he had one refusal in the spring, 7 strides between first and second fence, my partner said to the jockey, 'he might need 8' although he is not particularly short striding, the rider misjudged the distance and he refused, then went on to jump a clear round.

On Saturday, he refused in a Grand Prix class, and was beaten. When we were able to look at the video in slow motion we could see he was not looking at the fence and on the wrong stride again, he refused another fence and was beaten again.

On Sunday in warm up he refused the oxer and was beaten, another horse also refused the oxer, the lady rider turned her horse around and took it again.

The end of all this is that he refused 3 times in the next class and was eliminated. In three seasons of SJ he has never refused more than once in a season.

I also think he is sore after the first refusal when he skidded into the fence and went down on his knees.

I don't jump but would NEVER whack a horse who has umped so beautifully all summer. Thoughts from those of you who jump? I am really concerned that his confidence has been destroyed.
 
Quite simply, I would never beat an Arab - they are sensitive (as you are very well aware) and any I have trained have tried very hard to please. Some horses need a swift reminder, but Arabs take it to heart. Is he perhaps hurting somewhere?

To add: I have never actually beaten a horse BTW; that's rider's temper, and does not work either.
 
Hitting a horse for refusing tends to be the approach taken by many riders, if it has stopped because it's mind was not focused on the job in hand then it can be the correct thing to do at the time, a swift slap and come straight back round may mean it then gets it's mind back on what it should be doing, beating however is something else. there is never an excuse for taking your temper out on the horse and in this case it has had a detrimental effect on the horses confidence.

Part of the riders job, in fact the main part, is to assess the course and to know where the horse may struggle for distances, your arab may be a little shorter striding than the optimum so the rider needs to be very aware of this and if they end up on the wrong stride the horse needs to be given the benefit of the doubt, a simple slap to open up the stride on the approach or a well timed half halt may have made all the difference BEFORE the first stop, there is no point in taking action after the event, the horse cannot be punished for being put in the wrong place.

We were working a green pony at home yesterday and he put in his first stop because he just wasn't concentrating on the approach, saw the filler then backed off and ground to a halt, I immediately told the rider to NOT hit him because he hadn't quite understood the question, she turned back into it and he flew over looking very pleased with himself so his confidence had grown by being left to work it out rather than being punished because he had not understood, if he had refused a fence he had already jumped then he would have been given a quick reprimand.

When you are employing a rider they need to be professional in their thinking, I would be very wary about putting your rider back on unless he will listen to your wishes, if you don't want your horse treated in the way the rider did yesterday then make that clear before he rides again or find a rider who will ride the way you want, he is such a lovely horse he doesn't deserve to be treated unfairly, not that any horse does.
 
I'm not sure I understand your post. Have you sold the horse and he is being hit by the new rider or is he still yours? If he's still yours why are you allowing the rider to hit him. I think for a horse that never usually stops and is basically nice and honest, he's hurting somewhere or he has lost confidence in the rider.
 
I think it would be worth talking this through with the rider and understanding their reasons for their reaction. It is so easy to sit here without feeling what is going on and make a judgment, that being said a beating is never a good judgment. One of my previous horses was very sensitive and you could feel a stop coming from a mile away- it was always a very genuine, 'I'm not sure what to do' stop. My reaction was pretty much always to let her look, pat and bring her back round with an encouraging slap on the way back into the fence. She went onto compete BSJA for many years happily with very few stops to her name. My current horse is the exact opposite, he can be a ****** for not concentrating, despite being very experienced. He has a decent amount of scope which he gets a bit cocky about and doesn't think he has to listen and then has a 'oh sh***' moment when he realises what he has to do and puts the stoppers on. When I first had him I would just bring him back round and go again but this gradually became more of an issue when he seemed to get the idea that it was quite easy to stop. I then had to get after him more- he used to get a sharp slap and immediately and then another on the way into the fence. Basically there's no hard and fast rule but it does depend on the horse. I personally think a beating is unacceptable and certainly would be surprised if this was a pro doing it at a BS show and even more surprised if the judges hadn't pullled him up for it as there's quite strict rules about how much you can hit a horse. Hope this helps in some way!
 
some sensitive horses just lose faith in their rider very easily and hitting them makes it work. If a horse is usually genuine and has no physical reason why it should refuse then i'd change riders and take it back a level or two to get its confidence back.
 
I should explain, the rider is a professional who has been riding him all season. He jumps very well. This is only the second time my horse has refused in competition. He has never been whipped before.

In warm up yesterday, I could see his fear. It is quite common for horses to be whipped in France for refusing, new English neighbours who SJ are shocked by what they see. I have no problem with giving a horse a sharp slap to pay attention but this was not the case.

I have the vet coming to check my boy, because I am sure he was 'short' on Sunday because he was sore and that was shy he refused the second element of the triple. I have to look at previous video and yesterday in slow motion.

I am minded to find another rider for next year. As for discussion with the rider - this is much more difficult when you are speaking in a second language. He is an excellent rider and experienced SJ.
 
9tails said:
If you say so. I don't see the French riders going around walloping their horses when over here though.
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No, it is very common. One trainer who comes to our yard regularly leaves welts on horses he is "schooling," and there are at least two horses who are absolutely terrified of him (and no, he doesn't go anywhere near my horses!)

I stopped having lessons with another SJer because he wanted me to "chastise" T for breaking canter on a small circle, which in actual fact she had no balance and at the time the ground was slippy.
 
Rollin said:
He is an excellent rider and experienced SJ.
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some people can be experienced and techincally good riders, and still handle a situation wrongly. I would never beata horse for refusing a fence if it was usually a genuine jumper. I've one who loves jumping, and i respect his judgement that if we mess up a stride and he doesn't think he can make it, then he is well within his rights to refuse and not crash himself through poles. I've no issue giving a horse a tap to get its attention back or encourage it into a jump. But you want the horse to enjoy jumping and be happy in its job, and beating it doesn't encourage that. I would switch riders immediately and get the horses confidence back.
 
Personally I wouldn't care if the rider in question was experienced or not. If I as an owner disagreed with the way they treated my horse I wouldn't keep them with them. I regularly allow professionals to ride my horses but I wouldn't have them ride them if I didn't feel their style suited either my way of training my horse or my horses own styles.

All riders will do things differently but it's about finding a rider who does things the way you would like them doing whilst bringing the best out of your horse.
 
Language barrier aside I'm sure the rider will understand being told to eff off.

From what you have said then, if it were me, he'd be coming nowhere near the horse again. End of.
 
I don't know why people do this. If you beat a horse in front of a fence it will associate jumps with being beaten. I'm constantly amazed at what many horses put up with and we therefore pass off as "that larned him".
 
I don't jump but I have 2 Arabs and if you were to hit them more than once quite hard with a stick you would be dumped on the floor, they would have a complete meltdown and if this were to happen regularly I would end up with two nervous wrecks, if he were my horse I would be ditching the rider and getting him checked over, being as the refusing is a new thing and out of character for him I suspect something is wrong he is more than likely feeling pain,
 
Rider aside, how old is he? Is it likely he's changed shape and his tack is pinching? This is way happened to my sisters horse, new saddle and he was back to himself.

I certainly haven't hit a horse for refusing in recent years. Yes when I was an uneducated teen I would have done probably! These days my half luso gets very uppity if he gets a tap, and likes to please. If he stops I'm more likely to give him a little pat and come at it again. At least in my case he's likely stopped because I've set it up wrong!
 
Presumably as you have started the thread you are not happy with the way your horse is being treated - I can't see why you would raise the question otherwise. Therefore surely the solution is fairly straight forward - move him to a different rider.
 
hitting a horse going into a fence is a total distraction, for the horse and unbalancing, yet i have seen this a international level

i think a rider who wallops a horse for refusing is totally wrong, i would have felt like walloping him personally, in a competition you have to accept that things may not go to plan, its not like schooling, under competition pressure the rider`s skill is to set the horse up correctly not get wound up and wallop it for a mistake that could well be rider error.

i think he should have given the horse the benefit of the doubt and tried to figure out where he is going wrong, or if the horse has a problem, as it has happened more than once
 
Your stallion has been going very well. I've watched your posts throughout the year. IME, once a stallion has lost confidence in his rider, things won't improve. Have you not got a nice lady rider who could compete him? Men quite often feel they have to be very forceful with stallions. Not a good idea IMO. he probably needs looking over for soreness and have a time out from jumping. Maybe just do endurance for a while?
 
cundlegreen said:
Your stallion has been going very well. I've watched your posts throughout the year. IME, once a stallion has lost confidence in his rider, things won't improve. Have you not got a nice lady rider who could compete him? Men quite often feel they have to be very forceful with stallions. Not a good idea IMO. he probably needs looking over for soreness and have a time out from jumping. Maybe just do endurance for a while?
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Thank you Cundlegreen and other people who have commented. I think this too.

I have thought for a few weeks that this rider was too tough. In France, riders have to have a licence at the level my horses compete they need Amateur which means Gallop7 qualifications in France. I actually have an English friend who has a Gallop 5 and Club licence, who is going to help with my 3 YO Cleveland filly, who will start jumping Club next year at 60cm. Under the French system a rider with an Amateur licence cannot jump club and Amateur classes for 4 year olds start at 95cm!!

My visiting trainer comes tomorrow, He is a BHSAI but French and lived in the UK for 25 years. I will show him the video freeze framed. Two weeks ago I told him I thought Woody needed a break, as you say some endurance or just hacking out. This boy loves jumping and I want him to stay that way. No pressure to do anything until next spring.

This stallion will never be sold, I bred him, love him and he is my baby.
 
You can jump prep classes on an Am license. OK, there is no prize money and they don't "count" as rounds for the nationals, but your Am rider could enter prep 60, 70,80,90 classes for exposure and experience. :)
 
I don't understand why riders, when things go wrong, will always punish the horse first instead of looking to themselves. You see it all the time - the rider gets it wrong (or doesn't notice things are going wrong) and the horse gets blamed. Not just in show jumping either!

If the horse isn't paying attention, then that is up to the rider to correct. If the horse has the stride wrong, or the bend or is dropping a shoulder or whatever, it is up to the rider to correct it. As a rider, that's our end of the bargain.
 
Cortez posted this recently:

"Actually there is a sort of guideline for using the whip to correct;

Never more than 2 seconds after the behaviour.
Never more than 3 times.
Never in anger.

This was taught to me in Germany by a very eminent trainer, and is also found in some of the old classical texts.
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?739020-Girl-Hitting-Grey-Pony/page8#7eVU3Lm74myr5cwP.99"

It pretty much sums it up for me. If the rider was hitting him repeatedly, in anger, or not immediately after the stop then he'd be off the horse for good. If it was one or two smacks straight after the stop then it might be worth trying to talk to him? I do understand about the language barrier though. If hitting is very much the norm, he may feel under pressure to do that - I've known owners actually complain that their horse hasn't been hit. As you say, some investigations and a bit of time off sounds like a good plan either way.
 
cundlegreen said:
Your stallion has been going very well. I've watched your posts throughout the year. IME, once a stallion has lost confidence in his rider, things won't improve. Have you not got a nice lady rider who could compete him? Men quite often feel they have to be very forceful with stallions. Not a good idea IMO. he probably needs looking over for soreness and have a time out from jumping. Maybe just do endurance for a while?
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I'm late to the discussion here, but I was thinking exactly this. (Except for the endurance part! :)) What this rider does might be common in France, but to me it sounds like a bunch of macho bullcrap that doesn't gel with the horse. It does sound like he's lost confidence in the rider.

Rollin, I'm glad you are giving this so much thought and not being "When in Rome..." about it. You clearly love this boy.
 
I have two arabs, one loves jumping, and one is ok, but spooky and its not really her thing. If the little mare stopped at a fence, I would be leaving the arena. She has had three lifetime runouts, but to actually come to a halt in front of the fence would be so out of character that I would retire. I would not beat her for refusing, she wouldn't tolerate it anyway.
 
I have known professionals even in Britain who will tell students to give the horse 3 smacks with the stick for refusing IF there was no reason they should have done (ie the rider set them up for the jump properly and the horse wasn't in pain although I would hope they would spot that before jumping).

I don't really agree with this. I can't see how 3 smacks is more effective than 1. I will give my horse a tap on the shoulder if he is ignoring me because otherwise he will probably start napping and spinning so one light tap is preferred to him thinking he is in charge. But if I smacked him 3 times on the bum? He would probably buck. He wouldn't appreciate that nor listen to it and one of the professionals who goes by that method knows this so doesn't tell me to do it if he refuses.

Refusals are usually my fault though to be fair. Had one recently where it wasn't and i just laughed and took him back round to do it again. He had a fright so what? Not the end of the world and when he tried again he was fine and went over.

Being beaten by a rider isn't right no matter how good the rider is. The better they are the worse the problem is I think because they should know better.
 
I think I would not continue with a rider behaving as you describe .
IME horses who are honest and then start stopping do so for a reason horses don't suddenly become ungenerous something drives a change in behaviour .
There's no point IMO hitting a horse who stops after a 'miss ' I would change the rider and consider giving the horse a break before he stops enjoying his job .
 
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