Flowerofthefen
Well-Known Member
What do you have to do? I've just read a little about it and I'm sure I've missed something!! Seems a little 'easy' to become an unaffiliated judge?
Becoming a dressage judge
- Thread starter Flowerofthefen
- Start date
OrangeAndLemon
Afraid of exorcism
Following with interest because I'd like to know too.
I'm pretty sure you need to be riding and competing now as part of the criteria to be a judge.
I volunteer as a dressage writer quite a bit and I think that's an excellent way to learn more. I really should ask one of the judges next time I'm writing for them.
I'm pretty sure you need to be riding and competing now as part of the criteria to be a judge.
I volunteer as a dressage writer quite a bit and I think that's an excellent way to learn more. I really should ask one of the judges next time I'm writing for them.
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
Well, you don't need to do anything to become an unaffiliated judge - it's unaffiliated.
A lot of unaffiliated venues will only use BD listed judges, and some will use trainees. Trainees are BD full members who have signed up for the judge education programme, but have yet to complete the requirements to become listed. I started it during one of the lockdowns, but have changed my mind and since stopped - have way too much other stuff on to have the time to do so much sitting in, writing and test judging. And I found judging at intro/prelim level to just be a rather demoralising exercise, so stopped.
Flowerofthefen
Well-Known Member
This is what I read and I'm feeling a little grumpy now I know. We have been competing unaff for ages, some listed judges but many not. I thought the unaff judges would be well trained. The reason I asked is because a loveIy lady i know said little while ago she was going to do the judges training and now she is permitted to do it. Its only been about a month. So would this lady be sitting in with a listed judge?
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
There are more unaffiliated competitions than listed judges willing to watch a day of prelim and intro classes for very little money.
daffy44
Well-Known Member
As RF said you do not need to have any training whatsoever to judge unaffiliated, you could pull a random passerby off the street and they could judge. Fortunately most venues are pretty sensible and frequently use listed judges or at least people who are already enlisted in the BD judging programme and are therefore trainees.
I dont know all the details because it really doesnt appeal to me, but I have friends who are listed judges and they have quite a lot to do before they become listed; sitting in with listed judges, in person and online training, seminars and of course, passing the relevant exams for each level.
Its why, unless you know the qualifications of who has judged you at an unaffiliated competition, the marks can be taken with a pinch of salt.
I dont know all the details because it really doesnt appeal to me, but I have friends who are listed judges and they have quite a lot to do before they become listed; sitting in with listed judges, in person and online training, seminars and of course, passing the relevant exams for each level.
Its why, unless you know the qualifications of who has judged you at an unaffiliated competition, the marks can be taken with a pinch of salt.
Flowerofthefen
Well-Known Member
I can totally appreciate that!!
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
As someone who writes at unaffiliated competitions they get listed judges when they can but if not sometimes use people who regularly compete at a higher level than the class.
Flowerofthefen
Well-Known Member
I know listed judges are rigorously trained. I'm just really disappointed I didn't know about unaff judging. I'm trying not to think about the money I may have wasted over the years!!
daffy44
Well-Known Member
You dont need to think of it like that! You have had invaluable competition experience, you have ridden tests away from home, you have learnt ringcraft, and you may well have been judged a lot of the time by listed judges, so its not all bad.
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
Just because they are not listed doesn't mean you've wasted your money. They are more likely than not still experienced dressage people who know what to look for, especially at a lower level.
Flowerofthefen
Well-Known Member
True. I have enjoyed getting out and about. I just need to enquire about who is judging before I enter. I am aware of one unaff judge that dishes out scores to most over 70%. I never did enter any comps with that judge as I felt it was pointless.
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
As Daffy's post points out, you haven't lost out entirely - there are plenty of positives to take away.
But this is the crux of the really boring things I keep going on about unaffiliated competition - it is unregulated, and the money that you save from not taking part in affiliated does mean that you have no guarantee of consistent standards etc.
Flowerofthefen
Well-Known Member
Definitely food for thought. Round my area most aff stuff takes place in the week. Unfortunately I work all week which is why we compete unaff as there are more choice of venues. Perhaps we seriously need to up our game and try aff, perhaps on a ticket first!
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
Round here at unaff it’s a mix of BHSAIs, listed and trainees. Tbh I don’t really have an issue with it. Most of them are pretty experienced and though sometimes I think slightly generous, on whole fine. I have dr judged before, I don’t do it much but as a last minute emergency cover. A lot of the AIs don’t mind doing it especially those with a strong interest in dr as gets their name out there.
I have actually had far bigger issues out eventing doing BE but they have tightened up on it all now using proper judges. I remember getting a 47 once and thinking but the horse did some good pieces of work!
I have actually had far bigger issues out eventing doing BE but they have tightened up on it all now using proper judges. I remember getting a 47 once and thinking but the horse did some good pieces of work!
Gamebird
Well-Known Member
If they've tightened up then I might technically be out Damn! It always made me laugh out loud that because I'd competed badly at BE Int I was qualified to dressage judge at BE90. Trust me, if you'd seen my dressage scores you would not want me judging your test! Oddly enough having the balls/stupidity to jump a really-not-Int-level horse round an Int did not confer upon me magic dressage judging skills!
toppedoff
Well-Known Member
Apologies for hijacking (I seem to do that alot here sorry!) Do you need be riding to be a judge for unaff or is it more so having a keen and critical eye?
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
You just need the people running the competition to think "you'll do"
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
Actually you are still Q but not for your eventing, but your Dressage as done BD Medium
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Gamebird
Well-Known Member
oldie48
Well-Known Member
I know several people who judge UA dressage comps who are not BD listed, however everyone one of them competes, trains and is a "good pair of eyes on the ground". I'd actually prefer to be judged by them than some of the listed judges.
ihatework
Well-Known Member
Having been through the BD judge training process, sitting in or writing for countless tests, under a variety of judges and having judged myself unaff, RC quals under dispensation and BE - quite frankly the variety of judging I witnessed left me rather bemused. In a way it disillusioned me sufficiently to decide not to continue to pursue judging. On the other hand it’s definitely given me a more c’est la vie to judging of my own horses - I take the judging far less to heart and go far more on my gut feel for the horses progress.
Fieldlife
Well-Known Member
She can’t have completed all the components of BD judge training even at lowest level 6 in a month. But she could be listed as a trainee judge in a month.
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
I'm kind of glad to read this. Having got about 2/3rds the way through the judge training process, I was finding myself going to endless online judge training where various already listed judges couldn't agree with each other on marks for novice tests. And realising that fundamentally, judging is really inconsistent, and that different judges have different 'things' they get very focused on. There's a list 4 judge locally who gives my TB astronmically good scores (75% at BD novice) but who always hammers the young horse with low 60s. The young horse goes much better - the difference is that the TB gives the impression of being very secure in the contact (he's actually much *too* secure in the contact and pulls like a train) - the young horse is a little weaker and isn't always 100% through to the contact, but who's overall quality of work is much much higher. Just have to shrug and take it really.
Madali
Well-Known Member
As previous posters have said it takes a lot of work, time and money to become a listed judge.
It would be physically impossible to complete this in a short period of time because if starting from scratch there are a number of on line modules to complete, writing x30 horses, sitting in for 30 horses, practice judging for 20 horses as well all at Novice level.
I am fairly motivated and it will have taken me 12 months to fit it in around competing my own horses.
I also agree that some unlisted judges have a fantastic eye and I think they will On the whole give worthwhile feedback
It would be physically impossible to complete this in a short period of time because if starting from scratch there are a number of on line modules to complete, writing x30 horses, sitting in for 30 horses, practice judging for 20 horses as well all at Novice level.
I am fairly motivated and it will have taken me 12 months to fit it in around competing my own horses.
I also agree that some unlisted judges have a fantastic eye and I think they will On the whole give worthwhile feedback
DressageCob
Well-Known Member
I have also got part way through training and run out of time/enthusiasm. I've passed all the online modules but now need to do the sitting in, writing and practice judging.
What frustrated me is the judges freely admitting that they give extra marks to flashier horses. To me, dressage is about training and presenting the horse you have, not being priced out of the game by horses you can't afford. So to hear a list 1 judge saying "well this horse trots for an 8 so I'm going to start on an 8 and see if they lose marks" and then we get to the next horse and "this horse trots for a 6 so I will start on 6 and see if it loses marks from there" when about to start the centre line. The comment was related to the type of horse and natural flashiness, rather than the way it was being ridden before the movement began, evidenced by the fact that just before the centre line the flashy one was on its hind legs and then cantering sideways. It only trotted for a moment before her comment. Then later the cob did a lovely accurate circle, which she commented, but it only got a 6. Whereas the flashy horse did a big spook at E, halfway round the circle, and had outside flexion but because it started on an 8 that also got a 6.
To me, collectives are the moment to reward the natural way of going (in addition to the rhythm etc). The centre line is about accuracy, straightness, impulsion. Any horse should be able to start at 10 and lose marks, if that's the way you want to approach it. Otherwise wait until the movement is over and then decide whether it was satisfactory, good, very good etc. But I feel like my way of thinking doesn't match what they are saying so I'm concerned that I wouldn't pass the final assessment.
What frustrated me is the judges freely admitting that they give extra marks to flashier horses. To me, dressage is about training and presenting the horse you have, not being priced out of the game by horses you can't afford. So to hear a list 1 judge saying "well this horse trots for an 8 so I'm going to start on an 8 and see if they lose marks" and then we get to the next horse and "this horse trots for a 6 so I will start on 6 and see if it loses marks from there" when about to start the centre line. The comment was related to the type of horse and natural flashiness, rather than the way it was being ridden before the movement began, evidenced by the fact that just before the centre line the flashy one was on its hind legs and then cantering sideways. It only trotted for a moment before her comment. Then later the cob did a lovely accurate circle, which she commented, but it only got a 6. Whereas the flashy horse did a big spook at E, halfway round the circle, and had outside flexion but because it started on an 8 that also got a 6.
To me, collectives are the moment to reward the natural way of going (in addition to the rhythm etc). The centre line is about accuracy, straightness, impulsion. Any horse should be able to start at 10 and lose marks, if that's the way you want to approach it. Otherwise wait until the movement is over and then decide whether it was satisfactory, good, very good etc. But I feel like my way of thinking doesn't match what they are saying so I'm concerned that I wouldn't pass the final assessment.
ihatework
Well-Known Member
And this is why there is so much variation DC.
I actually disagree with you that all horses start on a 10. I think the quality of the gaits does play a part.
But any horse in my mind that has a correct gait, is going forwards in a nice way of going should be an 8.0 (good) as a starting point. Even if they are not world beaters. A 6.0 in my mind is actually saying there is something a bit wrong with the way of going, even if the movement was performed as per the sheet.
And this folks, it why stressage is sometimes a bit of a mind-feck!
Eta - if a dressage judge says to you ‘well this trots for a 6’, I would interpret that as overall way of going - E.g. tight back, hocks out, not forwards etc. It’s a kind of overall evaluation of the little things.
I actually disagree with you that all horses start on a 10. I think the quality of the gaits does play a part.
But any horse in my mind that has a correct gait, is going forwards in a nice way of going should be an 8.0 (good) as a starting point. Even if they are not world beaters. A 6.0 in my mind is actually saying there is something a bit wrong with the way of going, even if the movement was performed as per the sheet.
And this folks, it why stressage is sometimes a bit of a mind-feck!
Eta - if a dressage judge says to you ‘well this trots for a 6’, I would interpret that as overall way of going - E.g. tight back, hocks out, not forwards etc. It’s a kind of overall evaluation of the little things.
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
I think this is where my issue with competitive dressage (which I don't enjoy) vs. dressage training (which I do enjoy) happens. If the point of dressage is to improve what the horse naturally offers, it is very hard for a judge to telepathically understand what the horse's genuine starting point is, and whether the rider and training is impacting it for the better or worse. And that teaching a horse who's a bit compromised in their way of going to trot for a 7 when the starting point was a 6, is much more skilled than taking a horse who trots for an 8 and riding it in an unbalanced way so that it gets a 7. But how is the judge meant to know whether that compromised way of going is the fault of bad training, or physical limitations or just the way the horse is?
ihatework
Well-Known Member
Well theoretically they can only judge what they see. (Or which name they see … naughty IHW), and shouldn’t be trying to second guess the reason why. It’s just what it is at that moment in time. In a year it could look completely different.
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
I had a big moving flashy horse for eventing who would trot round the outside for a 8 as he was huge and it was easy round the outside. Go in the arena and he would be slaughtered (rightfully) but you could almost read the frustration from the judge that this super looking horse was going so badly! He just took a long time to establish in the contact and be balanced and with eventing sometimes you crack on if they jump before they are established in 20x40. Now though I rarely will go eventing until I think they can get a decent score. I think I also learnt a lot from him and much better in my training.