Been booted...some advice please?

thanks all (and thanks for the pm's)! :)

faracat - my mare will tell her off when it comes to food....my older mares ears will go back and she will go for her (occasinally kick) youngster looks terrified and runs off.

If i act aggressive and flap she takes no notice and still comes at me etc.
 
Are you angry? Sounds odd but I had an absolute baggage of a mare a few years back, the owner was terrified of her and this (big) mare knew she was boss. I had smacked her a few times but never in anger, until one day she went too far with me and I lost it and yes she got a real pasting with me yelling at her for good measure. She was still a baggage after that but a lot better than before because she finally respected me.
 
I can get very angry when needed - and with her now yes im fuming and perhaps act like that round her as the past week ive just got no time or patience for her attitude (wrong thing to be like with a youngster i know!) but being booted in the stomach and even now sat in pain isnt my idea of fun!

i expected a few plants when backing/breaking but not from groundwork :o


Thinking about it though ive never truly yelled at her....mabey thats worth a shot? ive normally just gone "oi" loudly and thats it....
 
Hmmm im not sure about this one tbh.
While im not averse to giving a crack on the arse if needed
Id need to see the horse and look for other signs to be sure thats what id want to try with this horse as i agree with some posters that its a wrong move with some horses and can exaccerbate the behaviour youre trying to eliminate.
I would work her in hand to respect boundries and space in all circumstances
 
Thanks all

safety is my biggest thing....nothing normally ever phases me on the ground, but this little mare has literally got to my weak point since booting me!....

My oldest mare is a sweetheart and if i could have her twin i would! :D this youngster was supposed to replace her ridden wise....
 
I have a young NF pon y that started turning very difficult when he was three and a bit. We were starting to get a bit wary of him(he was only 13 hh )
We stuck him in with our shettie cross 11hh and she soon sorted him out. He got above himself with her one day and she kicked the poop out of him. he had hoof marks all over him. Although we felt sorry for him and tended to the bruises he was as good as gold after then.
Is it possible to get this youngster in with others ?
Could you borrow a companion in the meantime ?
whereabouts are you perhaps somebody local can help ?

Our NF is still with us and will never be sold, we love him to bits .
 
I think this is a situation that could easily get even worse & shes too much for you (& probably most people). Couldnt you call out a professional to get their opinion before you start cracking her with the whip? Im not against a good smack but if that doesnt work youve left yourself with no where to go. Personally i used my local intelligent horsemanship recommended associate (google intelligent horsemanship) when my youngster was getting bargy & kicked me. They use natural techniques but dont pussy foot about either. Charged me £30. Was soooo helpful to get someone elses point of view & let them take over.& theyre always there for further support. They can advise you how to carry on. I think you should cut your losses & sell if you can find a kind knowledgable home who'll take her! & groundwork groundwork groundwork. I really wouldnt go using a bit and hawling on her mouth, à rope halter or the chain in-hand thing the earlier poster mentioned. Plus hat,gloves. Good luck, we're all rooting for you!

Ps: when she does let you handle her move away where as if she tries to move away from you try to stick with her-so shes rewarded for standing nicely. & if youre working with her feet-i use an old wooden walking stick with the curvy end covered on foam. Use this to rub her legs & even hook & lift her feet...without putting you too close! An idea from my I.H. R.À. & it worked a treat!
 
WE ALL tend to take libertys and cut corners handling our horses, habit etc. Noodle, you are clearly putting your self in harms way ,even if unintentionaly.I was extremely lucky as a kid ,to be taught by some real old school horsemen how to handle the equine gits of this world. And I must confess that whenever I have come unstuck ,it is because I have done somthing daft. With a kicker ,you must always have full controll of the head. Dont attempt to handle the horse until you have tied him up (short rack)Keep a broom handle or(in the good old days ) a pitch fork with you. Not to beat him , but for that moment when he swings towards you then you can use it it warn him off at a safe distance. Watch his body language. When you go in to put on the head collar you are at your most vunerable,so tell him in no uncertain terms to stand as you want him to . Be aware of the signs of submission, this is very important . A horse will "mouth"as a sign of submission. If he doesnt , WATCH OUT!.Till you have control of the head ,he can boot you as he pleases ,and HE KNOWS THIS. It is not easy,and some horses are just not worth the effort . Have you considered selling him to a good profesional dealer .?
 
marydoll said:
Hmmm im not sure about this one tbh.
While im not averse to giving a crack on the arse if needed
Id need to see the horse and look for other signs to be sure thats what id want to try with this horse as i agree with some posters that its a wrong move with some horses and can exaccerbate the behaviour youre trying to eliminate.
I would work her in hand to respect boundries and space in all circumstances
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This absolutely! I get the feeling from what you have said that with this filly you would be putting yourself in danger in that particular situation, she is likely to fly backwards at you, kicking out repeatedly, and possibly seriously injuring you. I think even if you sent her away on a long line you would still be at risk if she is not afraid of you and she could still whip around and kick you. For now I think you need to keep yourself safe and keep her front end under control and close to you. It could be that you need to stand back and think about how you are with her, is the way you feel at the moment making her worse because she can sense it? Intensive groundwork is needed but you also need to control your feelings about her whilst doing it. I feel a bit sorry for her tbh, you don't like her, your mother hates her and she is still a baby and getting it very wrong. I hope you manage to get her sorted without too much difficulty and without further injury.
 
Not a good situation for you or her.
I am totally against using whips or sticks to sort this as it just leads to further problems, a lack of respect and confidence in you, contrary to popular belief.
Basically, it's feedback from the horse giving you some idea of how she feels about you.
You need to do some groundwork with her and teach her to yield her hind quarters and face you when you ask, by pointing at her hind end. If she's facing you she cannot kick you.
She also needs to respect your personal space. You must get her to back up away from you and stand patiently at the end of the lead rope, I use a 12 foot one.
 
Have you had any medical checkup? I really think you should if you haven't already. I knew someone who sustained a similar injury and they wound up in hospital for some time and had to have major surgery. So get checked out first and then sort the little brat out.
 
I am very interested in this thread as I have a horse exactly the same. I got him as a 4year old 20mths ago and although he goes through times when he seems better, he can be very grumpy, bossy and bargy. Now I know he is also handy with his back legs. He double barrelled me in the field last summer, left me unable to walk properly for 3 days and left me black and blue (he is shod). Whilst I was laying on the ground he turned and gave me a look as if he was going to do it again so I managed to crawl to the edge of the field. When I tried to check him over again, thinking it was a one off he tried exactly the same thing (I was a bit quicker to move) and he caught a glancing blow on elbow and ribs. I tried carrying a whip, try to stay at his front end while tied up (but he also has a funny cow kick action so back leg comes towards the front), giving him a good wallop when he tries it but nothing works. I have also had a couple of different people out to do some stuff with him thinking that may help and it didnt, one was scared of him. I would never be able to sell him on because I wouldnt have a clue where he would end up. Back, teeth, saddle everything checked regularly so kind of at a loose end to :(
 
Giving a horse that has kicked you a wallop often exacerbates the problem.
If you think about it in the terms of two animals jockeying for position, he will hurt you far more than you him. The result is you will feel apprehensive around him all the while. He will pick up your feelings in a nanosecond.
You have therefore, lost.
Groundwork is the only real lasting solution.
Whoever controls space is in control. You have to be able to control his forequarters, and importantly hindquarters.
It's a psychological solution to a very physical problem.
 
my youngster did it last year but she did when she was tied up and managed to corner me and double barrel at my face but i put my arms in front of my face and she kicked them instead and got an impressive bruise from it. at the time she had really frightened me and i didnt tell her off and just led her down to the field again as i wasnt in a fit state to deal with her tbh (bad i know)

she started trying to do it in the field then and when ever she was on the yard and i actually found that my gelding helped so much with her manners

hes very protective and if he sees her about to do something he usually steps in either ears pinned back teeth bared and bites her (often removing hair and skin) or he will chase her off with ears back and then will walk backwards at her. when she kicked me she was incharge in the field i think my gelding was just so happy to have a new buddy he forgot he was the leader but that soon changed especially after he noticed how nervous i was around her... that was about a year ago and she now doesnt try it at all shes actually really well mannered and friendly.

also found that doing something scary just as they do it like kick out.. so littrally as they kick out burst a balloon or bag with air in it scares them half to death and they think twice about doing it again :)
 
Tbh......if I have ever had an animal that's tried to kick/bite (dog bites included), it's only ever done it once, because I've hurt it worse back. One thing I do not believe you can tolerate is an animal trying to hurt you, because at the end of the day if it crossed it's mind, they could kill you.

All my animals are my friends and I am very kind to them. But there is a line and because of my swift and harsh retribution, we all know where the line is and co exist very happily together.

Disagree if you like but I have never had s vicious animal, and nothings ever tried it twice, so it obviously works.

:)
 
Firstly, hope you start to feel less sore soon! She sounds like a proper baggage at the minute! You've had lots of advice already but having turned round my share of 'nasties' this is what I'd be tempted to do.

Keep her in a Fieldsafe headcollar so there is no faffing when you get in the field - less time to put yourself in danger. Always have a long lead rope (as PR says a 12' or use a lunge line). You need to be able to keep hold whilst be able to get out of harm.

Personally I would carry a whip or a long stick with a bag on the end. In an ideal world you should be able to ask her to move away without using them but it doesn't sound like you're there at the minute. You have to get her out of your space when you ask.

I don't like lunging babies lots but it could be worth teaching her (if you haven't already) and then if she does have a go send her away and make her work until she's knackered, not necessarily lunging on a circle but just keep her moving away from you until she drops her head and gives you the genuine impression she's given up the fight.

Most importantly keep yourself safe - hat and body protector could be useful.

I would say though that you need to be in control to really make this work. And by that I mean being calm and no nonsense and only forceful when you need to. If she senses you're scared she may well use this to her advantage so if you don't feel that you can do this it may be worth getting some outside help.

Good luck!
 
patterdale said:
Tbh......if I have ever had an animal that's tried to kick/bite (dog bites included), it's only ever done it once, because I've hurt it worse back. One thing I do not believe you can tolerate is an animal trying to hurt you, because at the end of the day if it crossed it's mind, they could kill you.

All my animals are my friends and I am very kind to them. But there is a line and because of my swift and harsh retribution, we all know where the line is and co exist very happily together.

Disagree if you like but I have never had s vicious animal, and nothings ever tried it twice, so it obviously works.

:)
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I'm the same - BUT I've found it's all about presence and expectations. I walk into the field like I own the place, and they automatically go 'oh ok, here's the boss'. With my youngster she came thinking she was in charge - an hour or so later, without actually having to hurt her at all (all growls, threats etc) she was quite sure that I was. I expect absolute obedience and politeness at all times. Any hint of stepping out of line and they're in trouble - so they'd never dare consider kicking me! At one point when pregnant I lost that sense of presence for a bit - became worried of being kicked while catching in. As soon as I lost MY confidence in me being invincible, they lost theirs in me and started trying it on...
 
I don't like the idea of frightening a horse, a frightened horse is unpredictable, potentially more dangerous.
Patterdale, I see where you are coming from and would guess you are comfortable around your animals, naturally exuding leadership qualities which are rarely challenged by both dogs and horses.
Where I feel people get confused is being dominant rather than a leader. Many horses will challenge a dominant, but none a leader.
You can get away with being a dominant around horses for a long time, but there will always be a horse that decides to take you on. That's when not being a leader let's you down.
 
StormyMoments said:
she started trying to do it in the field then and when ever she was on the yard and i actually found that my gelding helped so much with her manners

hes very protective and if he sees her about to do something he usually steps in either ears pinned back teeth bared and bites her (often removing hair and skin) or he will chase her off with ears back and then will walk backwards at her. when she kicked me she was incharge in the field i think my gelding was just so happy to have a new buddy he forgot he was the leader but that soon changed especially after he noticed how nervous i was around her... that was about a year ago and she now doesnt try it at all shes actually really well mannered and friendly.

:)
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Had a very similar experience to this.

Do you think the issue is frustration ? Shes not 2 yet, and only has the company of one sweet mare ? Youngsters need to be in a herd where they learn manners, and play so they use up their energy.

When mine where both 2 and acting up our little pony would sort them out and put them back in there box. Saying that they have never tried to kick me.

Agree with the comments about keeping control of her head, and keeping a broom with you to keep her hindquarters at bay.

I have a sensitive yearling, and i know if i tried to 'batter her' it would make matters worse. The best thing with her, is patience, keeping hold of head, positive reinforcement and plenty of playtime with her pals.

Over the past few months she has changed from being a handful, to actually quite sweet now.

Could you send her away for a bit to a yard that specialises in youngsters?

Good luck:D
 
Thanks all :)

appreciate the different opinions and views. Ive done nothing with her yesterday i needed time to think!

Id like to cut my losses and sell BUT that would leave my mare alone (only my two and they live out)!! so im a big stuck!

Land in winter wouldnt take 3.... even temporarily. Nothing normally phases me, ive had ex-racers, psycho broncing horses etc, but being belted on the ground is something new to me!

Im feeling better than i was - cant shift this feeling of keeping feeling sick, and have a smashing yellow bruise...but i'll live, i have too...im in work tomorow!

If i can find another horse i like, i could possibly buy it, and shift them around so the little **** of a youngster is elsewhere on grass livery until i can sell her - or ask a dealer to take her and cut my losses.

She will actually be a lovely ridden horse, (she moves lovely), but i think something older (even a green 3/4 year old) i can and have brought on and schooled before would be better right now! :)
 
noodle_ said:
Thanks all :)

If i can find another horse i like, i could possibly buy it, and shift them around so the little **** of a youngster is elsewhere on grass livery until i can sell her - or ask a dealer to take her and cut my losses.

She will actually be a lovely ridden horse, (she moves lovely), but i think something older (even a green 3/4 year old) i can and have brought on and schooled before would be better right now! :)
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I think speaking to a dealer is probably a good idea if you decide you want to sell her, you may well be able to do a part exchange type thing so that your other mare is not on her own for more than a day or so.
 
patterdale said:
Tbh......if I have ever had an animal that's tried to kick/bite (dog bites included), it's only ever done it once, because I've hurt it worse back. One thing I do not believe you can tolerate is an animal trying to hurt you, because at the end of the day if it crossed it's mind, they could kill you.

All my animals are my friends and I am very kind to them. But there is a line and because of my swift and harsh retribution, we all know where the line is and co exist very happily together.

Disagree if you like but I have never had s vicious animal, and nothings ever tried it twice, so it obviously works.

:)
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I would've agreed with this until i met my gelding, when i first got him as a 2yo and he started pratting around, he got his arse cracked or a sharp slap on the shoulder when he became a twonk, which had always put the others in their place.... he came back twice as hard,:eek: i had to be very quick to avoid his feet, both front, he would strike out, and back, he even once managed to rear and came down on me, by sucking me under, when leading him initially he would quite literally bounce me to the side and try to run over me, i was advised to get rid of him as he was dangerous.
I quickly changed my tactics with him or one of us was going to end up dead
:( i know that sounds dramatic, but that was where it was going, I started working him in hand using a rope halter, long line and Richard Maxwell techniques and never looked back, that was 11 years ago and i do think it saved us both, he is such a chilled sweetie now, he can still get a bit antsy if hes scared, but respects the halter, and me, i dont know if he would still be here if i hadnt changed tactics tbh.
So i do agree it works for a some horses, but not all of them.
 
I would've agreed with this until i met my gelding, when i first got him as a 2yo and he started pratting around, he got his arse cracked or a sharp slap on the shoulder when he became a twonk, which had always put the others in their place.... he came back twice as hard, i had to be very quick to avoid his feet, both front, he would strike out, and back, he even once managed to rear and came down on me, by sucking me under, when leading him initially he would quite literally bounce me to the side and try to run over me, i was advised to get rid of him as he was dangerous.
I quickly changed my tactics with him or one of us was going to end up dead
i know that sounds dramatic, but that was where it was going
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This is exactly what worries me (that Noodle_'s filly fits this category).

I know that I possibly come over as a super-soft bunny hugger, but I have very well behaved horses. I'm not steady on my feet and I suffer from a lot of pain so they have to be well trained and that includes the hot-headed two year old.

The last thing that Noodle_ needs is for her filly to make the association between kicking at humans and them going away/stopping handing her or for her to think that humans = pain.

Associations like these need very few repetitions to form in the horse's mind and take a long, long time to break.

Punishment can be an effective training tool, but you have to time the punishment perfectly or the animal will not associate the punishment with the bad behaviour. Also punishment is not the best training tool (as mentioned above, you don't want the horse to link pain and humans together).

I think that keeping safe is the number one issue here. A field safe headcollar is a good idea, I would possibly even give her a handfull of chaff in a bucket so that you can clip a leadrope on safely (unless she is more aggressive with food around). I still think that if the filly is better behaved in a bit (no pulling, only light aids needed to control her) then this is an option. A headcollar and chain or rope halter are other options too, but Noodle_ must be able to keep the filly from turning her back on her.

I would suggest distracting the filly by doing ground work (don't give her the opportunity to even *think* about kicking you by keeping her busy) and don't forget to praise her when she does something right. Reinforce good behaviour, don't let the bad behaviour happen at all.

I hope that you feel much better soon.
 
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