BEF Evaluations

[Onlooker]

I am not personally in favour of double entries at these events. I think we should be restricted to entering for one category only and then if those evaluating consider the animal would be better suited to a different discipline then it should be discussed with the owner/handler and moved accordingly.

I know its hard to be certain on which avenue these youngsters are going to go down but surely there is no gain for them to be dual evaluated. If you win an Elite, first, second or third why do some breeders want two awards for the same animal?

How many top horses are competing at top level in two sports at the same time! I am talking "top level" only and this is the area we are trying hit with our breeding, is it not.

 

[scotsmare]

I see your point but I think restricting them to one entry would be a mistake.

Most breeders sell their youngsters on - who is to say that the person who buys them wouldn't compete them in either of the disciplines that they have been awarded premiums for.

The evaluators do already have the ability to discuss the possibility of moving categories within the evaluations.

 

[eventrider23]

I have to disagree with this - many young horses are bred with an idea of a future in mind, however the resulting foal that comes out has it's own ideas and whilst being bred for one thing, it may well end up excelling in another. One of our guys this year is a perfect example...he is by a SJ stallion whose bloodlines include Argentinus, Ladykiller, Gotthard and Nimmerdor and out of a Beachtime/Sussex Diamond mare....so just about as SJ bred as a foal can get. However...the resulting foal is an out and out eventer at this stage and so we entered him in both sections of the futurity.
Not to mention, whilst as you say, there are no two horses competing at the top level in two sport's, however there are a lot that still do well at 2.
For example, I know quite a few 4 star eventers, who are also very decen and respected Grade B and even A show jumpers, as well as competing up to Advanced level dressage. Whilst yes, these are not the elite levels of these sports, they are still very respectable and definitely qualify.

 

[Onlooker]

Eventers are multi tasking animals in themselves and a lot do show jump in the winter months and in the last three years with the change of the way the money is graded any horse getting to Grade A has certainly produced an impressive record, but prior to these changes horses could get to Grade A quicker and could be achieved competing in small opens.

What I was wondering though was to the benefit of having two premiums awarded to the same animal in the same year. Are buyers that easily lead that they will feel the horse in question is twice as good as one which obtained just one premium?

Or is it owners want two rosettes to hang up and the BEF are happy to take another £25 from these people as it easy money for very little work!

Those of us trying to breed to the highest level must be able to assess our own youngsters - if we cannot how can we market them successfully. Maybe there is a need for informative lectures to be run by the BEF with our top riders telling us the breeder what they are actually looking for in their perfect mount.

.

 

[Bananaman]

[ QUOTE ]


Are buyers that easily lead that they will feel the horse in question is twice as good as one which obtained just one premium?

.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not!

However if you are intending to sell or market your horse, you are doubling your potential market if your horse scores highly in two sections.
For me, and I stand to be corrected by the far more knowledgeable folks on here if I'm wrong, I feel that the requirements conformationally for a show jumper and a dressage horse aren't worlds apart. They both need the ability to be able to transfer weight to the hind leg and propel that weight upwards.

Also, not all the people entering youngstock in the series are experienced breeders. A lot are hobby breeders or owners and are possibly looking for an expert opinion on which of two disciplines their youngster is most suited. I see nothing wrong with this as a form of education.

 

[Anastasia]

I can see where you are coming from Onlooker, but like the others would also disagree.

Yes we all know as breeders what we are hoping to produce, but a lot of the horses could go either towards showjumping or dressage (as an example), so its sometimes good to get another persons expert opinion as to the area they see them in.

A 2 year old colt we bred was the top 2 year old colt in both the dressage and jumping phases, and went through to the Elite show in the showjumping section, as that was the area he got slightly higher marks in, even though he got 1st Premiums in both sections.

His owner did not enter him into two sections just to have a pretty rossette hanging up. She wanted to see what the experts thought of him as both a dressage horse and showjumping horse.

The fact that one of the judges stood him in front of the audience and said "This is what people should look for in a showjumping horse" said it all, but he equally has excellent movement, so could easily do dressage as well.

 

[Onlooker]

Well wouldnt it be nice for each horse to be entered into one section only, with a space being made on the evaluation papers for judges comments - so in the case of your colt, he is awarded the premium for SJ and then in the comments have it in writing that in their opinion on the day this colt would certainly be a candidate for a potential dressage horse.

It is all very well having lovely comments being said about your animals, however an overall comment written down on the forms would be there for ever.

This way, breeders only have to pay to enter the one section but may well have comments relating to suitability in another. It will also open the way to swap on the day say if you enter as a SJ and they consider more event type. On the comments section they can write in there reasons for changing. On the day they speak to you whilst you are in the arenas, whilst another is on the load speaker telling the audience. Not all of these comments are written down so the advice is lost.

 

[_jetset_]

I think being able to enter more than one discipline is a great idea for young horses because until they are backed and ridden away, I don't think any of us truly know what that horse will be like at the discipline for which it was intended.

I myself bred my first foal for dressage, and entered him last year for that category. I do not have any intention of selling him unless he really will not do the job in hand, however, I have plans to breed from the same mare and stallion and this foal will be for sale. I received premiums for both the eventing and the dressage sections and will be entering him again this year for the same sections, because when it comes to selling his full sibling, I have written proof and results on the BEF website which show how he did.

Plus, although I can see your point about just having comments on the horse for the 2nd discipline, I found the comments on the day that were actually spoken through the eveluations incredibly valuable to me as a first time breeder. I do not think they would go as in depth unless you were competing in the two disciplines on the same level.

 

[Anastasia]

[ QUOTE ]
Well wouldnt it be nice for each horse to be entered into one section only, with a space being made on the evaluation papers for judges comments - so in the case of your colt, he is awarded the premium for SJ and then in the comments have it in writing that in their opinion on the day this colt would certainly be a candidate for a potential dressage horse.

It is all very well having lovely comments being said about your animals, however an overall comment written down on the forms would be there for ever.

This way, breeders only have to pay to enter the one section but may well have comments relating to suitability in another. It will also open the way to swap on the day say if you enter as a SJ and they consider more event type. On the comments section they can write in there reasons for changing. On the day they speak to you whilst you are in the arenas, whilst another is on the load speaker telling the audience. Not all of these comments are written down so the advice is lost.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess at the end of the day it is up to the individual owner to decide whether they wish to enter one or two sections. We only entered one section for each of our foals because I knew what each foal was more suited to.

However, you also have to remember that the evaluations are to educate owners, and through this education people can then start to get more of an understanding of what to look for in each of the disciplines, through an unbiased view of their horses, which IMHO is a good idea.

Many people in the UK are not used to the grading systems of the continent, which is what the evaluations are based upon. So this is new to a lot of people and it is only through these kind of developments that people then start to learn what to look for in a specific type of horse.

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
Well wouldnt it be nice for each horse to be entered into one section only, with a space being made on the evaluation papers for judges comments - so in the case of your colt, he is awarded the premium for SJ and then in the comments have it in writing that in their opinion on the day this colt would certainly be a candidate for a potential dressage horse.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is actually much easier to do it the way it was done last year -- a separate form for each discipline plus comments appropriate to that discipline both in the verbal and written critiques.

[ QUOTE ]
It is all very well having lovely comments being said about your animals, however an overall comment written down on the forms would be there for ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what the mark sheets are designed to do and why a different form is used for each discipline -- even if the marks are pretty similar.

[ QUOTE ]
This way, breeders only have to pay to enter the one section but may well have comments relating to suitability in another. It will also open the way to swap on the day say if you enter as a SJ and they consider more event type. On the comments section they can write in there reasons for changing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Evaluators swop disciplines for the horses all the time provided the owner allows it (and some don't) and always explain why the horse would gain higher marks in the discioline it is being transferred to, becuase -- as has been said several times by posters to this thread -- not everyone is an expert breeder and even some expert breeders turn to the evaluators for an independent informed analysis of the horse related to the various disciplines.

If you did not see / hear about this happening at the venue(s) that you/ your horse attended -- or did not manage to see the two sets of marks for a horse evaluated in two different disciplines on the same day -- you were probably just unlucky in your timing. OTOH, perhaps if your only experience of how the marking system works is from watching the H&C video then I can understand your question as this particular issue did not come up in any of the horses selected for the feature. BTW, most owners who wonder about what their horses should be aimed for in the future appreciate that an extra £25 is a very small sum to pay for the sort of feedback the Futurity gives on this. Some breeders with animals that will mature between 148 cm and 158 cm even present them as sports ponies and in one of the horse specialities too to make doubly sure that they have a relevant assessment for when the animal matures.

As far as the general type requirements are concerned, these are covered in the slide show that can be downloaded from the BEF Futurity web site. A series of PSHP roadshows are also planned for later in the year and this subject will also probably be addressed there as well.

[ QUOTE ]
On the day they speak to you whilst you are in the arenas, whilst another is on the load speaker telling the audience. Not all of these comments are written down so the advice is lost.

[/ QUOTE ]
Most of what is said on the loud speaker is a more concise form of what is on the mark sheet and any other comments made directly to the owner/handler in the arena tend to be of a more informal nature that would not be apposite to a long-term record for the horse.

 

[BSM456]

[ QUOTE ]
However...the resulting foal is an out and out eventer at this stage

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why there has to be any kind of category for these events. Regardless of how the horse is bred, I'd prefer to see an athletic horse with an amount of blood (which is required in all three disciplines), capable of doing a great job in the sport for which it's bred, but able to do a decent job of the other two, which ever they may be.

What I saw happening a couple of times, was the judges changing the category for the foal from jumping to dressage etc. i couldn't understand why, but as I said, I don't understand why the categories exist in the first place.

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why there has to be any kind of category for these events. Regardless of how the horse is bred, I'd prefer to see an athletic horse with an amount of blood (which is required in all three disciplines), capable of doing a great job in the sport for which it's bred, but able to do a decent job of the other two, which ever they may be.

What I saw happening a couple of times, was the judges changing the category for the foal from jumping to dressage etc. i couldn't understand why, but as I said, I don't understand why the categories exist in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

They exist because the requirements of paces, style of jump, length of body, prortion of limbs etc are very different when the animal has to meet the demands of top level sport. If you don't understand what the difference is then go and look at the Futurity slide show on the BEF web pages as that might help you.

That these different requirements are met with diferent degreees of success by horses from different bloodlines and breed make up is also one of the givens of sport horse breeding as that is why breeders choose certain stallions for their mares over other possible choices that are not so suitable in paces, conformation, temperament and bloodlines as the others are.

Or am I missing something here?