BEF futurity and welsh cobs

[pinktiger]

hi all!! reading a thread in comp riders has got me thinking,, my friend has the most stunning example of a welsh cob (2yold). Now as i understand it they might not be classed as a sport horse, and more of a working horse??!!! (forgive me if im missinformed)


So my question (being, that i believe the BEF futurity to be a showcase of good british breeding), would be, would that extend to a pure (very well) bred welsh cob section (E)d??????

 

[Centaurus]

Yes, of course you can. You just enter said horse into whichever discipline you think they are suited to.

 

[Cherrygarden]

Not quite so simple as that as although this used to be the case there is a proposed rule change for this year which would mean that any stock sired by a Graded Stallion will be eligible but not necessarily stock by licensed Stallions. I have asked whether there will be a definitive list of associations who's licensing criteria will mean that offspring by their list of approved stallions will be eligable for BEF futurity evaluations but have as yet not heard.
It is something that worries me slightly particularly with regards to ponies as we have some beautiful native and show stallions who will not necessarily be able to produce stock that can even if they should go forward for evaluation. I think it may be a move too far too fast and will stop people taking stock forward that really should go for both positive and negative reasons.
I agree with you that a good native should be able to go forward for evaluation especially given that even a third premium is a horse that is likely to be successful at riding and local club level and we do still need even these horses and to know how to breed them. I would expect that many of the more athletic natives and crosses should do considerably better than the baseline though and as such and as foundation breeding stock it is important that they are not sidelined and forgotten.
Many of the native and and show stallion owners and also TB people see no reason to go further than their own association licenses and so remain technically ungraded.
I have emailed my concerns to the BEF and I suggest that you email or ring and ask too as although this horse probably should be able to go forward it may well not be able to if this rule change goes ahead.

 

[pinktiger]

Not quite so simple as that as although this used to be the case there is a proposed rule change for this year which would mean that any stock sired by a Graded Stallion will be eligible but not necessarily stock by licensed Stallions. I have asked whether there will be a definitive list of associations who's licensing criteria will mean that offspring by their list of approved stallions will be eligable for BEF futurity evaluations but have as yet not heard.
It is something that worries me slightly particularly with regards to ponies as we have some beautiful native and show stallions who will not necessarily be able to produce stock that can even if they should go forward for evaluation. I think it may be a move too far too fast and will stop people taking stock forward that really should go for both positive and negative reasons.
I agree with you that a good native should be able to go forward for evaluation especially given that even a third premium is a horse that is likely to be successful at riding and local club level and we do still need even these horses and to know how to breed them. I would expect that many of the more athletic natives and crosses should do considerably better than the baseline though and as such and as foundation breeding stock it is important that they are not sidelined and forgotten.
Many of the native and and show stallion owners and also TB people see no reason to go further than their own association licenses and so remain technically ungraded.
I have emailed my concerns to the BEF and I suggest that you email or ring and ask too as although this horse probably should be able to go forward it may well not be able to if this rule change goes ahead.

ok well, ive passed the information on and she will ring or email the BEF and see what their guidlines are, very interesting tho!!

 

[Centaurus]

Appolagies for incorrect advise, I didn't know about impending rule change!

 

[EstherYoung]

The proposed change has been on the cards for a while: http://www.bef.co.uk/Downloads/Futurity 2011Factsheet5.pdf

A purebred welsh would be OK still I think.

That said, I took Wolf who is half welsh D, and although the vet liked him (really raved about him and gave him the second highest vet score of the day) the panel didn't like him, gave him the second lowest score of the day and he only just scraped a second premium because his score was bumped up by the high vet score. The panel reckoned he was 'too square in his frame'. He's built like a welsh D, of course he's square in his frame

 

[bryngelenponies]

There was a discussion of this on another forum- many people who took their section As and cobs did come away with good comments. However there were also incidents of the vet liking the animal, as said by the poster above, but the judges didn't like them because they commented that a native could never really get to the top. Other than the other discussions I've seen I can't really comment.

 

[Waterborn]

I have been lucky enough to receive 4 1st premiums from various Section C & D crosses all ponies, the smallest to make 12.2HH.

 

[pinktiger]

well seems encouraging and whilst not expecting great things she would be very interested generally in what the pannel thought,, she also raised another good point and that was,, does she take all the fluff off or take him n all his fluffy glory??????

 

[eventrider23]

I am really against this with the futurity and am likely to be boycottig it with my own progeny if these elitest things go through. Fair enough I know things have to progress, etc BUT what about all those horses out there who are superstars and not from 'special' breeding. Look at the one that went Elite Dressage a few years ago that was Trad x Arab....these would be overlooked now.

I spoke with Jan in person on this last year and actually she agreed. As i said to her, how does it look that someone in 2011 sends a foal forward and gets Elite.....but is not not eligible....does that mean the foal is no longer considered quality....or that owner's money is no longer good enough?????

My suggestions were that if they want to progress maybe have it that at least ONE parent is graded....mare OR stallion......and also that any progeny presented before new rules should remain eligible to present until they are 3 and thus gradually phase it out......

But alas looks like nothing like that will happen.
_________________

 

[pinktiger]

The proposed change has been on the cards for a while: http://www.bef.co.uk/Downloads/Futurity 2011Factsheet5.pdf

A purebred welsh would be OK still I think.

That said, I took Wolf who is half welsh D, and although the vet liked him (really raved about him and gave him the second highest vet score of the day) the panel didn't like him, gave him the second lowest score of the day and he only just scraped a second premium because his score was bumped up by the high vet score. The panel reckoned he was 'too square in his frame'. He's built like a welsh D, of course he's square in his frame

thanx for that and read through and not sure if the stallion is graded dont think so! We are Even more confused about entering it now!!!!

 

[EstherYoung]

Horses entering the Futurity may be of any breed provided that they have been sired by a stallion which has...
(iii) in the case of native and indigenous breeds only is a member of the British Horse Society (BHS) Horse and Pony Breeds Committee.

So with a purebred native sire you're OK and the sire doesn't need to be performance graded. Or that's the way I read it anyway.

 

[pinktiger]

So with a purebred native sire you're OK and the sire doesn't need to be performance graded. Or that's the way I read it anyway.

brilliant thats sort of how we read it too,, but then the bit at the end with the gradings etc confused us!! Does he need to be fluffless tho?????

 

[Ph1l]

A friend took a Sec D colt a few years ago and plaited him up - I think she had to use a double row of plaits though - but it looked smart!! She left his feathers on though. He got a 1st Premium - but was the "sporty" sort of Welsh D and a fantastic jumper - he was a 3 year old so got to show this off (many times, he kept taking himself down the grid to the delight of the audience!!). He was then going forward to the SPSS for grading but sadly died as a result of an accident in the intervening weeks

 

[jennygw]

Reading this with interest......took my foal in 2011 to Keysoe & amazed to be graded elite.
My mare is half shire- I'm afraid to the purists, I remove all evidence of feathers & beard!! So my foal is 1/4 shire and went in the Eventing section. He did really well at Keysoe & went on to be champion foal at the Futurity Eventing finals at Osberton. We were advised he maybe a bit solid for top flight, but his vet scores & confirmation were very high.
I'm a first fine breeder, so properly novice at Futurity etc but was happy that my mare's breeding wasnt laughed at!!

 

[pinktiger]

Reading this with interest......took my foal in 2011 to Keysoe & amazed to be graded elite.
My mare is half shire- I'm afraid to the purists, I remove all evidence of feathers & beard!! So my foal is 1/4 shire and went in the Eventing section. He did really well at Keysoe & went on to be champion foal at the Futurity Eventing finals at Osberton. We were advised he maybe a bit solid for top flight, but his vet scores & confirmation were very high.
I'm a first fine breeder, so properly novice at Futurity etc but was happy that my mare's breeding wasnt laughed at!!

WOW!!! what a brilliant result!!!!! Think we will deffo remove all fluffies!!!! hehehehe!!! Well done you on fab breeding too!!!

 

[Partoow]

What you need to understand is that the futurity looks At the product of breeding for sport.
Pure natives are accepted , thatshow the rule reads and is.
There is no predudice as to whether it is from native , cold blood, tb ,or warmblood , if the product fills the sport criteria that it is entered.
Please present your offspring the vets and the panel will give you an honest and fair assessment

 

[bryngelenponies]

I was looking through the Futurity results last night and recognised some of the breeding to be pure Welsh cob- I was able to find their pics on Kevin Sparrow's website. Both of the cobs I found were not plaited and had feathers- I think I'm right in saying that both of those got Higher 1st or 1st premiums. Of course it's likely to be a matter of taste though!

 

[jennygw]

Thats the trick really- it someones opinion on your precious animals! I was very pleased that the opinion on mine was a positive one!! But, went knowing that I loved my foal & although its nice for someone in the breeding world to agree- it wouldnt change my opinion on my foal!! (or mare!!)
I had a really good experience at Futurity- a total novice, but didn't feel stupid for asking questions etc!!

 

[carmenlucy123]

It can't be nice to not get a positive feedback on let's be honest our pride and joys but I would love the opportunity to go.
Unfortunately I never could find Mabels dams breeding, and although I was to register on wetherbys non tb I never got the chance as sadly she passed away just after foaling.
Then because Mabel was AI, and her sire also sadly passed I cannot DNA her to prove her breeding so alas she has a pet log passport (shock horror) and that would never be welcomed at BEF which i obviously find insulting to my cherrub!
However even if I had not ha these unfortunate events she couldn't go as her sure is not graded as (I think but I may be wrong) alot of weatherbys stallions are not Whig might annoy alot of people?!?
With BEF being such a success I personally cannot understand why they are making it harder and getting people's backs up rather than making it bigger and better?
I hope this makes sense

 

[EstherYoung]

Carmenlucy - It wasn't so much that I got poor comments from the panel that irked me, it was the very brief nature of that feedback and the way it was delievered. Literally: he's too square in his frame, he's too croup high, he's very fast but he's too temperamental. Next please. It was really that brief. I wasn't expecting him to get a mega grade, as I know he's not an international prospect, but I was hoping for some decent constructive critisism. However, they didn't pick out any of his good points nor did they identify any of the conformational issues that I know he has. The marks that the panel gave him equate to him only being suitable for local level pleasure rides. ps He was a yearling - find me a native type yearling that isn't croup high.

I still feel like I let Wolf down by taking him. I was very very nervous and he picked up on that and did wall of death round the arena spraying the spectators with liquid poo as he went LOL hence the comments about speed and temperament - but he wasn't being temperamental, he was scared, and even though he was scared he did everything he was asked, I caught him easily every time, and he stood beautifully for them to look at him. There were far worse behaved pones there that didn't get slated on temperament.

I did give a lot of feedback to the BEF at the time, as we didn't just take Wolf we took two others from our yard too and the experiences at different venues and with different 'types' of horses differed vastly. I got no real response to my feedback but was told informally that the level of detail and the manner in which it was given out was going to be improved for 2011 - did this happen does anyone know?

I don't think I'll take Wolf back (he wouldn't be eligible under the new stallion rule anyway) but notwithstanding the above I would be interested in taking Felix if I could, as I still think the Futurity is a very good idea if they can get it right.

 

[KarynK]

What on earth would be the point of the BEF if they require gradings. The breed societies have their own grading systems so you might as well forget the BEF altogether and grade with the breed.

What a shame that they are choosing to take this path as there are a lot of horses out there at the top that are not bred to papers and gradings and there are top level equestrian sports that are not represented by sections in the BEF so what does this actually mean for the future of the BEF are they going ELITE on us all???

So what was a very good means for introducing youngstock to venues and their future jobs as well as getting some very constructive opinions and advice on a variety of youngstock with different breeding is to become a closed door gentlepersons club???

Well no more entries from me if that is the case!

 

[pinktiger]

Quite surprised at the repsonse and the amount of good cobs that went through with good scores, unfort as with any evaluations what we see isnt what the evaluators see!!! I have only taken sport horses through before and am looking forward to being there and seeing how her lovely welsh cob does!!!!