BEF Futurity Premiums

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puc

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I have been thinking about this for some time and wondered what other people's thoughts are. I would like to say now that i support the futurity concept and i i don't want it to turn into another heated discussion that gets deleted as i think it is an interesting point and as i believe it this chat room is for discussion, friendly and sometimes lively debate and i am posting this to find out others thoughts and opinions. I probably shouldn't have to start my post with this but seeing as seems seem to keep getting deleted i thought i'd better clarify my reason for writing!! lol!!

So....

The futurity premium system... do you think that the current system of elite (marks 9 or above), 1st premium (marks 8 to 8.99), 2nd premium (marks 7.5 to 7.99) and third premium (marks 7 to 7.49) is a good and fair marking and awards system??
The idea (BEF website) that 50% of horses shown will gain a 1st premium i find a bit concerning as it states that a horse who is awarded this should go onto have 'very successful careers as sports horses'. I would consider very successful to mean a horse likely to be competed by a professional and competing at national level so i find it hard to see how 50% of horses breed in this country could all be possible of having such success - i don't mean can compete at national level as anyone can pay their entry fee but to actually stand a chance at say a national title at the BD National Champs, a top three placing in the BE young Horse champs or BSJA Young horse champs for example.
I also find the wording of the awards is wrong - how can a foal/youngster being awarded an average score of 7.2 for example be considered a premium foal even if it is a 3rd premium?? The very word premium (Definition: of exceptional quality or greater value than others of its kind; superior) states that the foal/youngster should be of superior quality and i consider (on two points) that a foal scoring 7 - 7.49 is not a premium foal (all be it third) - firstly that a foal scoring 7-7.49 is not an above average foal (and average should be judges on quality in breeding of sports horses in general not the average on that day) and secondly that i saw a third premium foal at one event that was of very poor standard both in its own right, the stallion choice and also mare choice - i did not feel in anyway that the word premium could be associated with this foal!!

So would this breeder who came for evaluation of their foal have gone away with the idea they had a premium foal???? And is this an honest and proactive approach to pushing british breeding forward??

So i guess after my long rambling post i am asking what is your opinion on the premium award system and would you expect more from say a 1st premium (for example) foal than what you would actually get??
Also do you think it is a good or bad thing to have to give everyone a premium (with the exception of a few who didn't even make a premium) and use a softly softly approach or do you think it would be more beneficial to have a a more honest and straightforward approach to really get people to look at their mares and their offspring and consider their breeding choice more carefully the next time or to think yes this was the best breeding choice i think i can make for my mare i'll repeat it if i want another foal?

Please state if you have been to the futurity to watch, if you have participated and if you are a professional breeder or amateur/hobby breeder.

I have an idea on how i would like to see the scoring but i've babbled on for long enough and would like to see what others think??

As said countless times before i have not written this as a slight on the BEF just something that i would like to hear others thoughts on.
I also think that Celia Clarke for one works tirelessly to try and improve British Breeding and this is not meant as a negative criticism just (hopefully) an interesting debate.
 
I also think that the way the results are given that sport pony sires do not get their fair share of the marks in the final scores as they are only allowed to be put forward for 1 category whereas horse can be awarded marks for dressage sj and eventing
 
I answer your post as an amateur keen to eventually get into hobby breeding one day. I have observed at the early Futurity events but not more recently, although I did watch some of the coverage on H&C tv!

I completely agree with the sentiments of your post.

I think the futurity and it's aims are great but I also think from what I have see they are far to soft when giving out marks.

I think a first premium should be something that a breeder should be really proud of, unfortunately they are being dished out far to frequently IMO. So as it stands at the moment I think Elite status is what I would be aiming for if I were presenting a well bred youngster.

I also agree that I would take the word premium out of the 2nd and 3rd class animals, the animals that fall into these criteria really do tend to have some flaws, which while they might make a nice lower level riding horse do not make them the athletes of tomorrow. That said I still think the futurity is a good system and these animals should be presented so that a hobby breeder can further their knowledge. I would expect a professional breeder probably wouldn't enter the lower end of their stock that would fall into these catagories.
 
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Would it be better to class them as grade A, B, C, D etc?

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I understand your thinking but think to leave with a score and the evaluation sheet is information enough and if your foal/youngster is an elite or premium foal then great you get a rosette to but i don't think that an 'everyone needs to win a rosette' attitude is particularly helpful in the bigger picture. You know what kind of category you're in by your score but this does of course depend on a realistic judging system of reward only when reward is truly due.
 
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Would it be better to class them as grade A, B, C, D etc?

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I would certainly go along with that. Elite and a First should be the only ones available and the Elite should be something only gaining a 9.5 overall at the least. First should be 8.75; anything less and they're not awarded. Only by being very strict will you get the cream rising to the top IMV. The only reason I can see for having so many different premiums is to give people a fair chance of getting at least a poor one and that can't be the point of it surely unless it's to fill the coffers?
I thought they were aiming for the best youngstock to be presented but a lot of second rate animals seem to be getting through which seems totally wrong and silly; why encourage more bad breeding along those same bad lines?
The concept is great but it needs seriously re working to make it the showcase of youngstock it is claiming to be.
 
i am an amateur, not actively breeding at the moment but very interested in breeding.
i have been to watch some of the futurity but not taken part.

i think the First and Elite premiums should stay- however i think at the moment they are far too easy to achieve.

there are an awful lot of youngsters who will make nice RC/ low level affiliated horses which are coming away with First premiums and that is wrong.

i think the issue is that as the evaluations are voluntary to attend, if lots of people took youngsters and came away with what is basically a 'fail' the numbers of participants would significantly drop.

i also believe there is an issue with the perceived benefits of taking youngsters.
i buy my horses are weanlings and have no affiliation with any studs.

what is the benefit to me of taking a gelding i have bought as a weanling?
i didn't breed him and cannot breed from him in the future so a total waste of money to me.

first of all, the BEF is missing out on lots of potential revenue by cutting these youngsters out of the loop.

secondly it gives a very skewed view of what the premium youngstock in this country actually are, as many outstanding horses simply aren't being presented.
 
My experience and thoughts on a futurity.

I went to my first futurity this year with a part bred gelding which I bred myself, he has no fancy bloodlines but is a very nice type with very good conformation, movement etc.
I have been showing him over the summer in part bred and hunter/riding horse classes with varying results as an example he was placed last in a Riding horse class and two weeks later was reserve champion in the youngstock section in a championship show.
I decided to take him to a futurity as I wanted an accessment of him which I hoped would be fair and that would be done by more than one judge, hoping that you can eliminate the factor of a judge having a preference in type, size etc.
The futurity experience was a very good one, the people were helpful and friendly and to have the opinions of vets and well respected people in the equine disciplines was what I had hoped for.
My Gelding recieved 2 first premiums, but I am under no elusions that he is going to be a top Sport horse their are so many other factors that will have a bearing on how he will turn out in the end, but it does give me an idea of what I am breeding, the points I need to improve etc.
Surely it is a good thing to have constructive judging/evaluations of large numbers of breeding stock to help inform people of how they are doing in the wider equine population, it will surely only benefit breeders in helping them breed better individuals and if hobby breeders such as myself want to pay the entry fee to get top evaluators looking at our horses then why not.
From previous posts it sounds like most people are aware that the judging is too soft, that the award of a premium is not going to add value to their stock so I am guessing that as this seems to be the view of most people that if they were looking to purchase a horse as a top class athlete they would note the premium but not use it as the only factor to judge that horse on.
At the end of the day I am chuffed to bits with how my chap did, I have a few nice big rossettes to hang up on the wall, the opinions/advice of some well respected evaluators to help me manage my boy and I met some lovely people but I do not have visions of him being a badmington winner.
 
There will never be one single organisation or event held out there that will completely satisfy everyone.

Some may pick it to bits for one reason or another but at the end of the day the BEF are just trying to do there bit to help people understand what there horses have going for them and what others have not.

If we as individuals do not like the scoring system then we as buyers or sellers should only look at the elite as the horses of the future and dismiss the rest,not what i would do after having attended one of their events.
 
QR: As a rider who has bred the odd horse, and when buying usually buys 4 - 6 year olds, I think there is some logic in a certain percentage getting the higher marks. If you were to put 10 2yo "elite" youngsters in a field, I don't know exactly how many will reach the top of their discipline, but it certainly won't be all of them. Some will sustain injuries, some will be sold into homes that don't want/can't afford/don't have the knowledge to produce them. A rider cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, so there need to be more good quality youngsters than are required at top level competition due to natural wastage. Hope that has made some sense!
 
Firstly I agree with your sentiments that Celia Clarke is a legend and works tirelessly for British Breeding. Having had dealings with her in both the Futurity and Sports Pony Gradings. She is a font of all knowledge and very approachable.
Im not sure what I think about using the word "premium" I think that the explaination of what could be expected of each horse from their score "should" be enough to steer away from breeding irresponsibly. I wouldnt have thought that people are stupid enough to think that a 2nd or 3rd premium is a good thing?
I suppose when you think about when you put a horse forward for grading with a breed society, if it isnt up to the job then it doesnt pass the grading.
You cannot please all of the people all of the time. The futurity is a massive undertaking with a huge amount of horses and ponies put forward this year. The BEF are improving year on year. The addition of the endurance section this year shows this.
What I would like to see is the Sports pony section split into disciplines. I appreciate that there are not as many ponies entered as horses. It would have been helpful to have had the jumping set up for ponies distances at the grading. Although I realise that this is probably a little unpractical with the range of pony heights? A little too early in the morning to explain myself properly! Brain not quite in gear yet!
I had a pony that graded elite as an eventer, but also as a showjumper. However the showjumping elite premium was classed as "for information only". If it was a horse that had obtained 2 elites it would have 2 clear elite premiums instead of just 1.
All in all I found the whole thing well organised and the evaluators easy to talk to and answered any questions that I had.
I also went to a different venue with my colt who got a first Premium. Had to laugh to myself though when they said that as he carried his tail quite high, it may indicate a back problem? He is 28% Arab!
 
I agree the word premium indicates something that may not be the case in some cases. However everyone (who needs to) is aware of how the scoring system works and how to interpret it. It’s just a name for a category at the end of the day. The mere fact that the BEF states that 50% of horses presented will gain a 1st premium surely suggests that they are aware of the fact that these horses are not the next Olympic champions and that the small percentage that were graded elite potentially are the future competition stars....


The other point to remember is that a lot of horses just are not presented at the futurity. Yes, I would agree that some of these are potentially real quality, but on the flip side of this a lot will be less than average. Why would you take a youngster that you know is not good enough to present and risk branding him/her as less than average or achieve no grading at all?....That seems pointless and may well cause more issues if you then wanted to sell in the long term..

Maybe the futurity won’t add any value to the top end of horses, but these already have their value and market. It could well weed out those at the bottom with lower premiums though and reduce the lower quality breeding that will directly improve British breeding in the future, which if I am not mistaken, is the breeding aim of the BEF. I know that many of you guys have said that you would buy a horse on its own merits not a premium(elite, 1st), but would you respond to an advert for a horse with a 3rd or no premium at all if you wanted to potentially jump around Badminton???

Apart from the class names, I think that the BEF have the percentages of Elite’s correct and let’s just wait and see what the future holds with regard to the benefits of futurity.

Anyway that’s my short and simple opinion on this matter….
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There will never be one single organisation or event held out there that will completely satisfy everyone.

Some may pick it to bits for one reason or another but at the end of the day the BEF are just trying to do there bit to help people understand what there horses have going for them and what others have not.


If we as individuals do not like the scoring system then we as buyers or sellers should only look at the elite as the horses of the future and dismiss the rest,not what i would do after having attended one of their events.

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I do agree with this but why appeal to the lowest common denominator?? Why not set the standard high and accurately reward successful breeding's and for not so successful breeding's give people the opportunity to gain more knowledge to try to improve the next choice of stallion.
For example i went to the same futurity venue the last couple of years and saw a few mares that had been there the previous years with their foals. One particular mare had a foal that received a 1st premium on their foal the first year- they went back the next year and received another 1st premium with the next years foal at a couple of decimal places higher. They came away saying that this years foal was better than the previous years and that the breeding choice had been an improvement - there was no way that the second years foal was an improvement, the first years was possibly due a 1st premium but the second years certainly was not, it had far worse conformational issue's than the foal the year before and yet scored higher??? Now i'm not saying the judges should remember and compare them but where is the consistancy and why did the second animal who in my opinion has not a particularly good foal that could have been better if the stallion had been chosen to suit the mare better. So this person when away thinking great i've improved on my breeding choice for my mare - its a bit concerning.

Do you mean you wouldn't hold any regard for the futurity awards at all or you would consider buying a foal/youngster lower than a 1st premium. Just out of interest what would you be looking to do with the purchase?

I don't think as said above that people are necessarily seeing where they could have improved - i'm not saying that people want to pay £50 to be criticised but people do need guidance and education in order to improve as a whole.
 
I do agree that the futurity is probably the middle sort of range (with exceptions) but would it not be nice to see the top end of the market presented?? And would more realistic judging encourange people with the top end of the market to enter as there is the chance to get an award that is hard to achieve and therefore worth having?? I mean an elite or first premium being an indication of real national/international level prospects??

Why not raise the bar to an elite being really the best foal there is not a really nice and a good foal but something exceptional and if the best arn't being presented this isn't a tru representation and evaluation of british breeding as a whole (in the main - again there are exceptions but there are a lot of people not presenting them) because what if an amazing foal is presented surely its going to be put in with good and really nice foals but not top top foals. I would only expect to see a handful falling into this (elite) category but i do not think that because not many would make it to this it is not valid - it should just make people try harder to achieve that accolade - thoughts??

I do agree fully with tigers_eye that if you had a field full of amazing and potentially brilliant horses only one or two may make it due to circumstances, rideability, production etc
 
Firstly, thank you for all being so supportive. We do listen to the points you raise -- which is why we ask all of you to feed them back to Jan for dscussion at our annual de-breifing meeting. We also like to hear from people who do not enter why they do not enter in case there are any rule changes / new venues etc that might make them consder changing their minds the following year.

As a result of all this -- and all the points made in this thread so far on premium splits etc pretty much echoed what was discussed at the wash up meeting -- it is highly likely that in 2010:

(i) 1st premiums will be split into higher and lower categories and the explanation of the difference included in the downloadable docs in the normal way

(ii) there will be even more venues to cope with increased demand throughout the country plus a number of areas where entries are very high

(iii) animals will only be allowed to enter one discipline and one venue (can be transferred to another due to an unforseen no show in the normal way of course) but if the evaluators feel that this is the incorrect one they will suggest to the owner that it is moved (not complusory to follow this advice but probably a good idea as those that have done this in the past will verify :-))

(iv) ponies will be assessed as sports ponies but will be scored for a specific discipline (so if they loose jump -- not many do -- the fences will reflect their heights as they do with the SPPS)

(v) sports ponies will be expected (not required) to have at least one parent of 148 cm or less as well as being expected / projected to mature at 148 cm or less with evaluators being given general guidelines on how this is indicated according to age/breeding etc

(vi) the old-two part vet scoring (now / future) will be re-instated and an average score calculated between them

These changes are still to be officially confirmed but hopefully they all will be indue course.
 
Also, would image as the pony section grown in size it will be split into sections but can imagine its a bit frustrating if your presenting a pony.
 
iIt would be really easy to say that only the best animals can be evaluated, but by evaluating the lower levels the ‘I bred from her because I didn’t know what else to do’ will hopefully decrease. Like I said the more futurity develops over time the more people will become aware of what the award system actually means, and the more value it will have as an aid to an animals quality/future. The only way to begin a breeding evaluation system is to start at the bottom and educate those people to improve breeding or to stop altogether. The Another point to remember is that horses with a 1st premium will more than likely go on to have a good career at a certain level……is this not what 99% of horses owners want out of their horses and those that want more need to breed better animals…(achieve Elite premiums).
 
I hold the evaluations in high regard,I think that not everyone is looking to buy the next big olympic horse but we are all hoping to breed one.There is no real reason why the lower premium horses(perhaps not below 2nd) which can be just as well bred as the top level ones wouldn't appeal to some people.I would say so long as the comformation isn't to way of course.

We bred a mare(that is now 12) that recently went to a grading(not BEF) that scored a second premium.

She has been with her current owner for 4yrs and showjumps to foxhunter,hunts,dressage,working hunter at county level and cross country.

I think there is a wider picture to look at and most people like ourselfs were very interested in the feedback.

Ours also went round with her tail up and showing off but we were told she uses her back well.
 
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Would it be better to class them as grade A, B, C, D etc?

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I would certainly go along with that. Elite and a First should be the only ones available and the Elite should be something only gaining a 9.5 overall at the least. First should be 8.75; anything less and they're not awarded. Only by being very strict will you get the cream rising to the top IMV. The only reason I can see for having so many different premiums is to give people a fair chance of getting at least a poor one and that can't be the point of it surely unless it's to fill the coffers?
I thought they were aiming for the best youngstock to be presented but a lot of second rate animals seem to be getting through which seems totally wrong and silly; why encourage more bad breeding along those same bad lines?
The concept is great but it needs seriously re working to make it the showcase of youngstock it is claiming to be.

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I think if you look at what your scores are and the amount of people that got those scores very very few would come away with anything and we are trying to help and promote british breeding !!

yes maybe the 2nd and 3rd premium should be renamed though !!

but making the 1st 8.75 and over would not encourage people to do it !
 
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I think if you look at what your scores are and the amount of people that got those scores very very few would come away with anything and we are trying to help and promote british breeding !!

yes maybe the 2nd and 3rd premium should be renamed though !!

but making the 1st 8.75 and over would not encourage people to do it !

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OK, perhaps those are a mite high but surely the point of the evaluations is to award the top horses. Unless you raise the bar and make the Elite and Firsts worthy of being awarded, people are going to carry on in their own little way repeating similar matings because they 'got a Second Premium' which won't bring any improvement at all. If they are meant to mean something then they must be marked harsher to make it a real achievement and give encouragement. This PC attitude of nobody must go home empty handed is not doing any favours to anyone if the quality of their stock does not reach the required standard but by being awarded a lowly premium, it means they think they have got it right when so patently, they have not. Perhaps a more straightforward approach would be to vet and evaluate everyone and then the best ten be brought forward for final marks. That way, everyone would get a fair crack of the whip and those last ten in each group will feel they have achieved something while the others can go away and ponder on what needs to be improved.
The evaluations are meant to encourage good future breeding, that won't happen unless Premiums are only awarded to the very best.
 
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I hold the evaluations in high regard,I think that not everyone is looking to buy the next big olympic horse but we are all hoping to breed one.There is no real reason why the lower premium horses(perhaps not below 2nd) which can be just as well bred as the top level ones wouldn't appeal to some people.I would say so long as the comformation isn't to way of course.

We bred a mare(that is now 12) that recently went to a grading(not BEF) that scored a second premium.

She has been with her current owner for 4yrs and showjumps to foxhunter,hunts,dressage,working hunter at county level and cross country.

I think there is a wider picture to look at and most people like ourselfs were very interested in the feedback.

Ours also went round with her tail up and showing off but we were told she uses her back well.

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I am not disputing that there is a huge market for 2nd premium horses in the wider world and in the futurity for them BUT i think atm there is not particularly a place in the futurity for a world class (for want of a better expression) horses to get properly rewarded.
 
Fair point but do we really know if any are world class until they actually come out under saddle and prove it. Getting an elite premium is obviously a step in the right direction for breeders but getting a first premium certainly helps give you the information to help produce better than you already have.
 


Could you not hold the futurity as normal, give everyone their scores at the end but wait till all the events are finished then award the elites, first premiums after, for example the top 1 or 2 % get elites, the top 10% get firsts and so on, then you are not only evaluating each animal but also marking them against all the entrants in the country.
 
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I think if you look at what your scores are and the amount of people that got those scores very very few would come away with anything and we are trying to help and promote british breeding !!

yes maybe the 2nd and 3rd premium should be renamed though !!

but making the 1st 8.75 and over would not encourage people to do it !

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Maybe not as high as 8.75 i agree. I think 8-8.99 is suitable for a first premium but maybe my point is more that the judging could be a little tougher as i simply can not believe that 50% of foals are of a standard warranting a 1st premium.

But people should come because they want to and they want to improve and show their foals/youngsters off, be it for pride or advertising etc but i don't think that the idea of promoting british breeding is dragging people kicking and screaming with the promise of a rosette (i know i'm being flippant
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) but come on, the futurity should be a show case, a respected and inspiring system and venue('s) for showing your youngstock. I know it has to have a reasonable amount of entries to run but i think that the people who only come along for a rosette are not people that are going to listen to positive criticism anyway.

If they're worried about entries dropping then just offer prize money (funded via sponsorship etc)
 
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Fair point but do we really know if any are world class until they actually come out under saddle and prove it. Getting an elite premium is obviously a step in the right direction for breeders but getting a first premium certainly helps give you the information to help produce better than you already have.

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That is a very fair point!
Not sure about awarding the top so many % the elite and 1st. Some years may result in more of the higher standard of horse being put forwards. The evaluation should be consistant year on year. so a certain score may result in a elite one year then a first the next. Not sure if that would be entirely fair.
 
also, forgot to put, that the overall standard may indeed be lower for one year bringing the standard of the elites and 1st lower.
 
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also, forgot to put, that the overall standard may indeed be lower for one year bringing the standard of the elites and 1st lower.

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Which is exactly why it is not done like that. I know that in some European countries the quality control for (say) assessing stallion peer groups in performance tests is so sophisticated now that they can assess from year to year allowing for better and worse years, but in the UK we are not up to that yet -- and in the Futurity we have only really been going for 4 years in its present form anyway which makes 'norms' even harder to set.

Also, the more data we collect on the more young horses we assess the better -- and the more accurate the outcome of the predictive process will be. This is becuase in order to calculate/identify the elite in any group (and hopefully soon their EBVs -- Equine Breeding Values formerly known as BLUP indices) and also those of the individual horses within that group we need a broad base of norms and below norms -- who are normally statistically far more numerous than the elites -- on which to build the data. So if giving 2nd and 3rd premiums a rosette is the (very small) price we have to pay for this then I am quite happy. IOW, this is basically a numbers game and you need to bear in mind that some wb studbooks register around 12,000 foal a year and it is the numerical strength of this 12,000 that form the base from which they find their top performers -- and not all of them come from the most fashionable of bloodlines. What they can do that we cannot is demand /legislate that every foal is inspected upon branding so we have to find other ways of encouraging as broad a band of participants as possible (eg by giving all of them rosettes) just in case there is an elite jewel hidden amongst even the least likely of them.
 
i think if i was going rossette hunting the last place i would go would be a BEF Evaluation so i don't think this is what people go for.

There are far easier ways to accumulate them if that is what people are after but i think not.

Horse shows are numerous and not so expensive to enter i wouldn't pay £50 in the hope of coming home with a rosette.

Why not take it for what it is an on the day assesment of your horse with the hope of feedback that will help produce better quality in the future.
 
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