BEF Futurity

Ciss - I have PM'd you my details.

I also agree with Volatis' ideas. At the end of the day, prizes are good but at the same timeif the evnt isn't getting the recognition it deserves through lack of advertising, etc then the name won;t improve. Sponsorship and brochure would be a good idea.
As rufusbluemoon said, we should have a yearling and 2 foals for next year as well as a 3 yr old do that's 4 entries eight there, and I know studs like Hobgoblins would want to show off their babies (especially the Millenium ones they've got) as well as the likes of Renkum and Brendons.
Plumptom/Hadlow/Merrist Wood all sound good. I know many of the staff at Plumpton well and know that they would be able to offer great catering and stabling facilities as well. They DO have the PC in at some point but I am sure that can be worked round.
 
I have been emailed Jan and can anyone who wouldnt mind being involved pm me with email address etc then we could brainstorm arena to hire etc etc - Jan said she will be happy to pop down and meet us all in the new year ??

So who is up for helping then ??
 
what about Writtle College? No idea what the school is like but i think they have had gradings before and is not to far off the M11/M25/A12
 
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i would defiantly be up for putting up some sponsorship for a brochure making it more proffessional

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Thnks very much for that offer of sponsorship, if you PM me with your e-mail address I will make sure that Jan takes it up :-)

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it would be good if each horse could have a picture its pedigree laid out and for some of the breeders to get some sort of recgonition

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I'm afraid that this is a little impractical as -- at the request of participants -- we leave the closing date of entries as late as possible (barely 4 working days!) and as:

1 many of entrants are foals and do not yet have printed out pedigrees that could be scanned in

2 many of the owners do not have the extended pedigrees of the sires to ahnd when they do their entries and we would not want to put them off entering becuase of that

3 most of the audience are well able to construct a pedigree from information on sire, dam and dam's sire

we do not really think the extra cost is justifed in the entry list. We are not alone in this.as none of the following include this information in heir youngstock show/assessment catalgues BSPA, BWB, CHAPS, SHBGB, TBF, KWPN or Oldenburg, although obviously this info is usually available in stallion grading cataloues and of course auction catalgues for the very rich Dutch and German societies.

OTOH, i am sure that pad for adverts could include this copy fi the advertiser or spobnsor so wishes :-)
 
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what about Writtle College? No idea what the school is like but i think they have had gradings before and is not to far off the M11/M25/A12

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We did insopect Writtle a couple of years ago and would have been very hapy to go there as Tim Whitaker and his students do research work for the BEF but unfortunately the barriers around the indoor school would have been a health and safety risk when young animals were loose schooling, so we had to say no that one.
 
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it would be good if each horse could have a picture its pedigree laid out and for some of the breeders to get some sort of recgonition

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I'm afraid that this is a little impractical as -- at the request of participants -- we leave the closing date of entries as late as possible (barely 4 working days!) and as:

1 many of entrants are foals and do not yet have printed out pedigrees that could be scanned in

2 many of the owners do not have the extended pedigrees of the sires to ahnd when they do their entries and we would not want to put them off entering becuase of that

3 most of the audience are well able to construct a pedigree from information on sire, dam and dam's sire

we do not really think the extra cost is justifed in the entry list. We are not alone in this.as none of the following include this information in heir youngstock show/assessment catalgues BSPA, BWB, CHAPS, SHBGB, TBF, KWPN or Oldenburg, although obviously this info is usually available in stallion grading cataloues and of course auction catalgues for the very rich Dutch and German societies.

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Am watching this thread with interest even though my potential future entries are presently just a twinkle in their breeders eye; but must admit, amongst all the positives, I find the above really disappointing. If this is a futurity & designed to boost British breeding (& it is, isn't it?) then I feel we really need pedigrees; and especially the hugely important tail female line, which post after post on here has suggested to be difficult to find, across all the breeds & societies, to the extent that our chief source & authority seems to be the unofficial, incomplete, sometimes innacurate, "Pedigree Query" website.

Its a bit of a slap in the face to breeders to find that they have to have- what is it? an 8 generation pedigree? to fully register their stallion or mare, then to find that in show-casing his offspring to sell at a prestigious event, all that careful breeding is again disregarded, and anyone using the stallion or buying a youngster to show / bring on, is encouraged to forget where it came from by the very event that should be celebrating it.

In the case of those who are less concerned with the pedigree of their youngster, that the AUDIENCE is supposed to know how the horse is bred when the BREEDER can't be bothered to find out is just NOT ON. I would make a full 3 generation pedigree a condition of entry and not accept "not known" unless this can be verified; you could email / send out a little chart to be filled in with the entry. Surely if the event is worth entering breeders will be willing, even eager to do this: and I wouldn't lower your standards for those that can't be bothered.

That the other societies listed don't give fuller details suggests either that they have a more complete and accessible database for potential buyers to access or that they are letting their breeders down, IMO. Either way it won't apply here
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By way of comparison look at what the racehorse people think appropriate: alright, not suggesting we can quite afford that, but its food for thought, and a proper examination of the female line, I think.
 
Some interesting points made, alleycat, but the kind of catalogue you require to tempt you to enter the Futurity when you finally get around to breeding a foal, would put very heavy demands (both in time and money) upon quite a number of people involved in the programme, and I don't just mean the organisers <sigh>. Bearing that in mind, exactly which job would you like to take on out of the following:

1 Convincing everyone who enters that their entries need to be in at least 3 weeks earlier becuase of the amount of extra time the programme needs to be prepared?

2 Convincing the entrants that they need to pay probably almost double the current entry fee to cover the extra printing costs -- especially when we have venues like the Grange where 100 were forward this year?

3 Providing sponsors to pay the extra printing and admin costs of producing such a programme -- or sponsoring it yourself perhaps?

It is all very nice to be very high minded about reproducing full pedigrees, but we have to be realistic and bear in mind the limited resurces not only of the Futurity itself -- where every extra penny spent in unsponsored admin and printng costs is a penny less for the prize fund -- but also of the exhibitors who already find attending such an event expensive anyway.

BTW, your e-mail reads as though we encourage entries from animals with unknown breeding, but as most people on this list know, not only is it impossible to enter such a horse for the Futurity, but as all foals are required to have papers -- at least by the time that the prize money is distributed at the end of the season -- for all but pure TBs that means that in most cases both parents are graded and the stallion will certainly have whatver number of genrations the studbook he is graded into requires.

As far as the organisations that do not print full pedigrees having extensive databases -- of course they all do, after all they are studbooks and that is what studbooks do, collect breeding data. But they do not tend to publish extended pedigrees unless they are part of an auction catalogue -- which as most people on this list will tell you are NEVER cheap and can cost the equivalent of around £10 with seats at the auction considerably extra . This is why entry costs for auctions are very large and why the foal section of Brightwells has ceased to be and the Breeders sale held in Southampton last year failed to get off the ground again in 2007 (ie it did not ahve sufficient cost benefit for the sellers, the buyers or the organisers).

Sorry about all that, but we do need a bit of a reality check on this brainstorm here sometimes.
 
Well, thats me told, isn't it!

Sorry Ciss, but I think providing basic breeding information- and a 3 generation pedigree in my view IS basic- at each and every opportunity, but especially where youngstock are being showcased for a breeding industry which wishes to be taken seriously, is perhaps the CHEAPEST and EASIEST way to promote British breeding.

It doesn't take an extra 3 weeks to collect and print information which breeders should have known for the previous 11 months; nor does it cost an arm and a leg to add around 22 words per horse (names and breeds) to whatever catalogue, whether printed or downloaded, is being provided.

Whilst I wasn't seriously suggesting we can, at present, afford a TB style sales catalogue, I think the attention paid to the mare's side in these catalogues, especially in a breed with the information at the serious buyer's fingertips (not dispersed over several stud-books as in our case) suggests that it is to the seller's benefit (if they've got something good to sell) to flaunt such information and we really should be including all the info we can as standard and as priority.

Actually I've nothing whatsoever against people breeding from mares of unknown breeding; its more of a gamble both for breeder and buyer, but if it's a good horse I don't see any reason to be put off by this. However I think its worth remembering that that breeding wasn't necessarily unknown at the time that it happened; its generally just been lost or forgotten. The horses used over the years might well have been just as carefully chosen as those in another horses' 8 generation printed pedigree; but now their descendants are treated as second rate in any breeding programme and many breeders won't touch them with a barge pole. Therefore anything which allows pedigrees to fade from memory or be disregarded needs to be addressed by making sure that the people who have the knowledge pass it on, IMO.

Excuse my failure to keep my criticisms to myself until such a time as I can present a foal of my own at one of these venues, or afford to act as a sponsor; but I feel so strongly about this- the sheer pointless, unnecessary, demoralising lack of information and DISREGARD for this lack of information by people who SHOULD- who DO- know better- that dogs British breeding- and makes me tear my hair with frustration-that I felt I had to say something.

Earlier you said, I think, that you wanted to involve people; to be approachable. I hope you will consider me involved even though my involvement as an entrant cannot happen until 2009 (I hope to "get round" to breeding a foal starting this spring) and that you will not cease to be approachable because I find I must disagree with your committee on this. If I can offer any practical help, please consider it offered, & pm me. As to sponsorship; not possible this year (for much the same reasons that breeding was not possible) but yes, I'd certainly consider it, on a modest level, for the future- I think a lot of us would, for a show case worth having.
 
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Well, thats me told, isn't it!

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I am only trying to bring a bit of reality into the thread by explaining the kind of restrictions even the most well-funded organisations (eg European studbooks) have to work under, let alone the Futurity where the participants entry fee less admin costs (of which printing can be a major part) provides the bulk of the prize fund.

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Sorry Ciss, but I think providing basic breeding information- and a 3 generation pedigree in my view IS basic- at each and every opportunity, but especially where youngstock are being showcased for a breeding industry which wishes to be taken seriously, is perhaps the CHEAPEST and EASIEST way to promote British breeding. !!

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And the market research data you have to support this rather sweeping assertion is ....?

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It doesn't take an extra 3 weeks to collect and print information which breeders should have known for the previous 11 months

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True and I do of course agree that the breeders will have known this for hopefully *more* than 11 months before the foal was born -- otherwise the choice of sire would have been a very last minute thing! What they don't know, and often cannot decide until the almost very last minute and certainly the last week -- a fact BTW that the experienced breeders involved in the Futurity know from their own experience -- is exactly which foals will be looking their best and therefore will be the ones that they present. What does take 3 weeks is the preparation, proof reading and printing of a catalogue that could well be over 40 pages in length if full pedigree tables are included, especially as many of the sires will not be on the NED database and therefore pedigrees cannot be automtically downloaded even once NED is fully on line.

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nor does it cost an arm and a leg to add around 22 words per horse (names and breeds) to whatever catalogue, whether printed or downloaded, is being provided.

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What 22 words are these? Having prepared a large number of stallion grading and display catalogues I can tell you that a tabulated pedigree (and a full 3-generation pedigree is meaningless unless it is fully tabluated) would be at least 25 lines deep and even if each horse in the pedigree had only one name (very unlikely in these days of complex prefixes and suffixes which we actively encourage people to use) that plus its breed would make 28 words.

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Whilst I wasn't seriously suggesting we can, at present, afford a TB style sales catalogue, I think the attention paid to the mare's side in these catalogues, especially in a breed with the information at the serious buyer's fingertips (not dispersed over several stud-books as in our case) suggests that it is to the seller's benefit (if they've got something good to sell) to flaunt such information and we really should be including all the info we can as standard and as priority.

Actually I've nothing whatsoever against people breeding from mares of unknown breeding; its more of a gamble both for breeder and buyer, but if it's a good horse I don't see any reason to be put off by this. However I think its worth remembering that that breeding wasn't necessarily unknown at the time that it happened; its generally just been lost or forgotten. The horses used over the years might well have been just as carefully chosen as those in another horses' 8 generation printed pedigree; but now their descendants are treated as second rate in any breeding programme and many breeders won't touch them with a barge pole. Therefore anything which allows pedigrees to fade from memory or be disregarded needs to be addressed by making sure that the people who have the knowledge pass it on, IMO.

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I think most serious breeders would recognise that there is a great deal of difference between breeding from a mare that has an unknown pedigree and one that comes from a venerable but perhaps currently out of fashion bloodline, but the problem is -- probably more acutely in this country than any other -- that a mare line that is not fully authenticated is problematical to say the least and what goes around can definitely come around. (That, of course, is why stallion pedigrees are expected to be so extended and proven, especially on the dam's side). We all know of beautiful mares that are supposed to be by the local HIS stallion (say Hill Farmer or Shaab) and look like it but have nothing to prove that is the case, but just becuase they are 'said to be by' doesn't make them 'proven to be by' and and this is totally different from (say) breeding from a Novilheiro grand-daughter or one that has Sineada or Drabant in their dam's pedigree.

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Excuse my failure to keep my criticisms to myself until such a time as I can present a foal of my own at one of these venues, or afford to act as a sponsor; but I feel so strongly about this- the sheer pointless, unnecessary, demoralising lack of information and DISREGARD for this lack of information by people who SHOULD- who DO- know better- that dogs British breeding- and makes me tear my hair with frustration-that I felt I had to say something.

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Well, now that you have got that off your chest :-), perhaps you can look at what I have written -- and the explanation for it -- a little more in context and accept that those involved are not the arrogant, ignorant, self-centred and self-promoting hoard you appear to think they are. It also ocurs to me that you may not have been to watch a Futurity yet, so may be unaware that the current entry lists for the Futurity (whch are given away free on the day and in which animals for sale can be marked as such) contain the details of the studbook for which the animal is entered (or will be entered), its colour and dob, its sire (and breed), dam (and breed), sire of dam (and breed), breeder and owner, which is actually more than most catalogues give anyway.

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Earlier you said, I think, that you wanted to involve people; to be approachable. I hope you will consider me involved even though my involvement as an entrant cannot happen until 2009 (I hope to "get round" to breeding a foal starting this spring) and that you will not cease to be approachable because I find I must disagree with your committee on this.

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Of course not :-), do keep the ideas coming. In an ideal world -- where sports horse breeding is as superbly funded * and centralised* as flat race breeding :-) and where entry to the Futurity was a requirement not an option -- then what you suggest would be the expected norm (except that a 4-day turn around on a catalogue of 100 horses would still be impossible!) , but we are not currently in that position so we do the best we can with very limited resources. And incidentally, even the rich government funded warmblood and sports horse studbooks abroad provide no more information in their foal inspection catalogues and don't usually even hold inspections for yearlings and 2 year olds like we do anyway!

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If I can offer any practical help, please consider it offered, & pm me.

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Will do straight away :-)

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As to sponsorship; not possible this year (for much the same reasons that breeding was not possible) but yes, I'd certainly consider it, on a modest level, for the future- I think a lot of us would, for a show case worth having.

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Again, very much appreciated and sponsors will get good advertising coverage as well in The British Breeder so we can certainly discuss that in due course :-).
 
Im sure we could produce a catologue with the information in it BUT it wouldnt be of any good quality !!!

Maybe and this is just an idea we could have the normal posh catalogue - then just have an added sheet (a4 plain paper) as an add in with the number, horse name and 3 generations pedigree - this could be done a day before the show and added to each broshure or you would be able to collect one at the show ???
 
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Im sure we could produce a catologue with the information in it BUT it wouldnt be of any good quality !!!

Maybe and this is just an idea we could have the normal posh catalogue - then just have an added sheet (a4 plain paper) as an add in with the number, horse name and 3 generations pedigree - this could be done a day before the show and added to each broshure or you would be able to collect one at the show ???

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The idea of a standard well-produced programme across the series (including adverts for studs, stallions, stock for sale (including full pedigrees if this was supplied as complete a/w) with a separate loose insert for each venue giving our usual catalogue info (section entered, number, name + studbook, colour, dob, sire + studbook, dam + studbook. dams sire + studbook, owner and breeder) is the solution/suggestion I was coming to as well.

However, although a loose insert with a full tabulated 3 generation pedigree for each animal is feasible if there are only about 10 horses entered, it would still be a bit of a rush to prepare as people sometimes phone in their entries at the very last minute and we do try to fit everyone in. And of course people cannot send in photocopies of papers for foals (as they do not exist) although we do ask for copies of covering/insemination certifcates anyway but of course these often do not have the breeding on them <sigh>.

The problem comes when we have larger entries (and we really need an average of at least 25 per venue to break even) as this can really bounce up the number of pages and the printing cost -- and the more entrants the more print outs are needed becuase there are more people accompanying them and watching and needing the info. We have to have a consistent approach across all the venues and we do not believe in charging for programmes (listings) as no-one ever wants to cough up for them -- or finds reason not to ('How dare you aks me to pay for a programme, I ahev a horse entered!' etc) so we have to keep within a budget that -- as I have said several times -- does not reduce the prize fund.

Even so, in this time-expensive world, preparing and printing the entry list does take time even if you have the money to fund eveything, and there is only so much a single administrator (plus 1 limited part-time helper) can do even with a host of eager volunteers, as volunteers are just that and should not be forced into impossible time schedules.

HTH
 
well great minds think a like !!

I also do not think poeple should have to pay - but then again if you are to enter late you wouldnt be in the programme !!!

i must say the day before the show if you printed one copy and then photocopied it 300 times that would only take a total of 15 mins - that is just the copying and hopefully you would only hav ea couple of late entries to input on the form !!

you could also have a spreadsheet that would automatically generate the sheet - i can design the template if you wanted then this could be used for all venues !! (actually i get some wizz here at work to do it !!!) xx
 
also now i may be going a little far now as having an online entry form - then all the information would download automatically into the sheets ready !!! if someone doesnt put the info on then they wont be entered ???

im guessing all covering certificates and passports are checked at the show !!
 
This is quite an interesting debate and really highlights problems within the industry. Breeders are saying this is what we would like, and the industry saying so would we, but we do not have the time and resources. It is just ever decreasing circles and one of the reasons I have no plans to breed horses in the future.
No offence Ciss (I understand your frustrations) but people are coming up with suggestions and are really being shot down in flames (and people wonder why there is no input from breeders) with negative responses.The only people who can change the situation are the BEF but If there is no investment or funding in promoting these kind of events then what is the future for British Breeding and Equestrian sports as a whole, especially with the higher costs of fuel, feed, shows etc etc and as you say in this time expensive world?
 
I think one super overall catalogue with lots of background, adverts, info on previous winners etc and then a printed insert for each venue is what i was thinking of. If satceytanglewood's IT whizz can come with a database that on line entries can filter into automatically, and then any postal entries be added by admin would be great. And that can just be printed onto A4 and be available as a loose insert on the day.
Ideally the cost of printing the main catalogue can be covered by the advertising revenue. If enough sporthorse stallion owners and breedes could be persueded to submit an advert, it could become a really good reference tool to be kept.
 
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I think one super overall catalogue with lots of background, adverts, info on previous winners etc and then a printed insert for each venue is what i was thinking of. If satceytanglewood's IT whizz can come with a database that on line entries can filter into automatically, and then any postal entries be added by admin would be great. And that can just be printed onto A4 and be available as a loose insert on the day.
Ideally the cost of printing the main catalogue can be covered by the advertising revenue. If enough sporthorse stallion owners and breedes could be persueded to submit an advert, it could become a really good reference tool to be kept.

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Whoever designs the website for BEF should be able to do it to be honest !!

I can do something for manual inserts and you just click a button and there it is !!! ha ha
 
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it would be good if each horse could have a picture its pedigree laid out and for some of the breeders to get some sort of recgonition

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I'm afraid that this is a little impractical as -- at the request of participants -- we leave the closing date of entries as late as possible (barely 4 working days!) and as:

1 many of entrants are foals and do not yet have printed out pedigrees that could be scanned in

2 many of the owners do not have the extended pedigrees of the sires to ahnd when they do their entries and we would not want to put them off entering becuase of that

3 most of the audience are well able to construct a pedigree from information on sire, dam and dam's sire

we do not really think the extra cost is justifed in the entry list. We are not alone in this.as none of the following include this information in heir youngstock show/assessment catalgues BSPA, BWB, CHAPS, SHBGB, TBF, KWPN or Oldenburg, although obviously this info is usually available in stallion grading cataloues and of course auction catalgues for the very rich Dutch and German societies.

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As I'm sure you know Ciss, the KWPN DO publish pedigree information in the catalogues for their mare and youngstock inspections, namely:

Sire, Sire's sire
Dam,
Damsire, Dam's dam,
Grandamsire, Great Grandam's sire

It only takes up 4 lines...

Noting the sire, dam and damsire is good but I do agree that for breeders, pedigree information is hugely interesting. I love good programs and keep them for years! On that basis alone, you might be able to sell more sponsorship which might cover any additional printing or design costs.
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well great minds think a like !!

I also do not think poeple should have to pay - but then again if you are to enter late you wouldnt be in the programme !!!

i must say the day before the show if you printed one copy and then photocopied it 300 times that would only take a total of 15 mins - that is just the copying and hopefully you would only hav ea couple of late entries to input on the form !!

you could also have a spreadsheet that would automatically generate the sheet - i can design the template if you wanted then this could be used for all venues !! (actually i get some wizz here at work to do it !!!) xx

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Thank you so much Stacey -- for your suggestions and your active offer of help. If we can get a date sorted out the South East Futuirty will obviously go wth a real swing :-)

We could well take you up on all of those postive and hopefully workable suggestions and how very nice to have this real pratical offer of help instead of being accused of knocking back everything in flames when I am only trying to explain the situation (and its not down to the BEF to provide funds, except for the World Class Potential scheme, its down to the industry to find out ways of supporting it I'm afraid).

We already have spread sheets for recording the basic pedigree information we have and for calculating the scores both per venue and overall rankings so (apart from the fact that most of us spend the day before the evaluation travelling to it / setting up etc rather than doing photocopying) I am sure that if you get in touch with Jan she may be able to progress things a bit on this front (she is off line until Friday am though).

Our only problem is that we do not really like to have anyone present a horse that is not in the catalgue, both becuase adding late entries after the catalogue is printed looks a bit unprofessional (and can really throw the timinsg out) and also sadly some exhibitors have been known to complain becuase either they are in the cataloge but others aren't so obviusly these others have been allowed to enter later than them OR they are not in so are at an unfair disadvantage to everyone else! Take your pick and we've had it as a complaint <sigh>

Just out of interest, none of you would believe -- well, perhaps you might -- just how many entries from apparently knowledgeable breeders give the wrong breed for the stallions they have used (eg Flemmingh is not KWPN, he's Holst graded KWPN so he has to be listed as Holst becuase that is what he was born as, but he is almost always listed as KWPN in the entries we receive, and Donnerhall miraculously becomes a Hannoverian in a surprising number of entries) . Checking all this does take time -- and expert knowledge/ access to database info etc, but eventually people will learn one hopes.

Meanwhile we just get brickbats for not doing enough and after they've thrown them those people doing the throwing sadly sometimes have a tendency to sit on their hands rather than offering them in help. But such is human nature I suppose.

Bya agin thanks Stacey for your contributions :-)
 
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also now i may be going a little far now as having an online entry form - then all the information would download automatically into the sheets ready !!! if someone doesnt put the info on then they wont be entered ???

im guessing all covering certificates and passports are checked at the show !!

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Don't know about the on-line entry form, but I rather suspect that ATM, the BEF web site isn't set up for that and I'm not sure how the password protect would work for a series that doesn not require membership of anything in order to take part (ie personal details of potential participants are not pre-loaded).

Covering certifcates and passports are checked at the show but photocopies of them are also required with the entreis themselves, which bearing in mind the number of errors we get on the entry forms (see my previous post) is probably a rather necessary info backup.
 
I think you need more helpers in the area then they can do the photocopying for you !!! and have it there ready !!

really looking forward to helping with the SE one !!! xxx
 
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I think you need more helpers in the area then they can do the photocopying for you !!! and have it there ready !!

really looking forward to helping with the SE one !!! xxx

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Never had the luxury of that number of local helpers yet (even in Cirnwall), but it certainly sounds like a good idea so perhaps SE can set a precident :-)
 
I take it Ciss that was a pop at me. TBH I have offered help and suggestions over the years because as a small time breeder I have struggled like hell to bred top horses and produce horses with no support from the industry as it is a hobby that started as fun but then became serious. I have a mare that when her papers are shown abroad the question I always get asked is how did she get into the UK. that is not boasting but fact, and our policy was always to put her to the best stallion we could afford. One of her offspring is an Intl showjumper at a young age and we have taken him away from a top rider and given him to a young rider who has potential. It is a step back for the horse and for us as owners but we feel he will go to more shows rather than being stuck in a stable, even as they are a lower level, and hopefully will develop a good relationship with the rider that they progress. I could have sold him abroad quite easily and I really could do with the cash but I have taken a gamble and puy my money where my mouth is as all we want to do is see him jump to is potential. How many other people are doing or prepared to do this?
 
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I take it Ciss that was a pop at me. TBH I have offered help and suggestions over the years because as a small time breeder I have struggled like hell to bred top horses and produce horses with no support from the industry as it is a hobby that started as fun but then became serious. I have a mare that when her papers are shown abroad the question I always get asked is how did she get into the UK. that is not boasting but fact, and our policy was always to put her to the best stallion we could afford. One of her offspring is an Intl showjumper at a young age and we have taken him away from a top rider and given him to a young rider who has potential. It is a step back for the horse and for us as owners but we feel he will go to more shows rather than being stuck in a stable, even as they are a lower level, and hopefully will develop a good relationship with the rider that they progress. I could have sold him abroad quite easily and I really could do with the cash but I have taken a gamble and puy my money where my mouth is as all we want to do is see him jump to is potential. How many other people are doing or prepared to do this?

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I think that is fantastic what you have done - you are right with top riders your horse may not go to as many shows !!!
who did you give him to if you dont mind me asking ?? xx
 
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I think that is fantastic what you have done - you are right with top riders your horse may not go to as many shows !!!
who did you give him to if you dont mind me asking ?? xx

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And how is the mare bred and who did you put her to to produce this very successful young horse? And -- just out of interest -- what studbook papers did you decide to get for him and why.

One thing the Lead Body would love to get off the ground is some kind of system that would put talented British-bred horses with rising young Britsh riders. It will depend upon what criteria they choose as the long-term selection process for the World Class Potential initiative, but in the meantime I am sure that Jan would love to hear from any owner/breeder who thinks they have a horse (4-6 yrs old) with this kind of potential -- and of course from any promising young rdier who thinks they might be able to take it on.
 
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/hatia is the dam and the sire is Carthago Z also have a full brother and sister (5 and 6) out in the fields doing nothing as no funds available to produce and these show (ed) as much promise. They also have a half brother that is Grade A and was with a leading riders yard for 18 months at their request and I have a very interesting 2 yo where her dam (above) is also her grandmother.

He was the first ever British bred Zangersheide horse using AI (all done in the UK)and has Zangersheide papers.

I have been on about this for years as we can breed the horses in the UK but it is the structure of producing of them which lets us down and one of the reasons personally why we have not bred more. Breeders/owners do not always want to sell them but want to see them compete but cannot afford to have this done, and riders cannot afford £100k+ for a talented young horse that has the potential. Everybody wants there cake and to eat it but there is so much common ground for all parties involved that these problems can easily be sorted out. This is one of the reasons we have now gone down the route we have. I have to say that the BSJA were helpful in our enquiries.

As an owner, it is appreciated what the BEF are doing with regards to training and funding for the riders which also benefits the horses. Giving a potentially valuable young horse (or even a horse with experience) to a young rider is not always the easy answer as the young rider has got to have the experience back up team on the ground to support them on a day to day basis no matter how talented they are and this has also got to be considered.

There are older good professionals who produce young horses carefully and I would like to see a few of these recomended as 'assesors' before a horse is recomeneded for further training as their experience will help identify future talent and will help the owners in deciding what they want to do.
 
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http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/hatia is the dam and the sire is Carthago Z also have a full brother and sister (5 and 6) out in the fields doing nothing as no funds available to produce and these show (ed) as much promise. They also have a half brother that is Grade A and was with a leading riders yard for 18 months at their request and I have a very interesting 2 yo where her dam (above) is also her grandmother.

He was the first ever British bred Zangersheide horse using AI (all done in the UK)and has Zangersheide papers.

I have been on about this for years as we can breed the horses in the UK but it is the structure of producing of them which lets us down and one of the reasons personally why we have not bred more. Breeders/owners do not always want to sell them but want to see them compete but cannot afford to have this done, and riders cannot afford £100k+ for a talented young horse that has the potential. Everybody wants there cake and to eat it but there is so much common ground for all parties involved that these problems can easily be sorted out. This is one of the reasons we have now gone down the route we have. I have to say that the BSJA were helpful in our enquiries.

As an owner, it is appreciated what the BEF are doing with regards to training and funding for the riders which also benefits the horses. Giving a potentially valuable young horse (or even a horse with experience) to a young rider is not always the easy answer as the young rider has got to have the experience back up team on the ground to support them on a day to day basis no matter how talented they are and this has also got to be considered.

There are older good professionals who produce young horses carefully and I would like to see a few of these recomended as 'assesors' before a horse is recomeneded for further training as their experience will help identify future talent and will help the owners in deciding what they want to do.

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such a shame yours are in the field !! can you not find another young up and coming rider who would take them on then maybe you could sell them and split profit ?? thats if you did want to sell them ??

Well lets all just hope that we can imporve things and make them better !! I do hope to take a lot of time over producing my youngster and luckily know so top top riders to help me along the way that i trust !! xx
 
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