BEF Futurity

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elijahasgal

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Is it just me, or do you think that the futurity is deviating from its initial goals?

Initially I thought that it was to assess british breeding, the unusual crosses, and see what they were bringing through. Each step forward in breeding better performance horses has come from inovation, trial and error. German sport ponies were in large part our welsh ponies crossed to warmblood stallions. That cross would be acceptable to the futurity.....but not a warmblood mare to a welsh stallion.
Or where do the good old TBs that were the root to most eventers come in?
Where do the clevland Bays that are known to produce good Jumpers, Irish sports horses (Crusing, Grey Macha, King of Diamonds) all fit into this new way?
It seems to be almost Warmbloods are us, but doesnt each breed run its own assessments and shows?
Dont get me wrong, I love my warmbloods,( and my Irish, and my TB's ) But when it starts becoming an elitist show, where amature breeders (like myself) with one or two mares, cannot any longer go along and take cracking foals and learn in regards to my own horses where I need to improve or am doing well (I have done well in the past) it starts becoming all about a big few names, and squeezing smaller stallion owners and studs out the equation. You then get smaller people maybe going to nice stallions that are not producing the goods, but you cannot compare them on the rankings as they are no longer there.....results cannot be seen and compared, taking away some more information from the public. And maybe just maybe, it will be that a stallion not in their approved list will be producing cracking youngstock, that will not be recognised for 6-8 years, when they are out competing, because of these new rules. (and yes, I believe that we have a few such stallions in this country, as we are fantastic horse people, with guts, and innovation, and an eye, the only reason we fell behind the continent is that they did massive state farms, but you look at a lot of the horses that they sourced at the beginning, there were a lot of british bred and breeds)
So now according to the futurity, our own breeding, if not on their "approved list" can only in future be put forward as a leisure horse. I actually find that insulting, Innovative breeding can only be a fun, not a serious horse?!
What do you think? Should the futurity be a "do it our way club" or "Lets see what our british breeders are producing and doing what they have always done well"
 
Well, I have a yearling that I was going to enter and is now not eligible. She is by a Stallion that was previously graded with the AES (so therefore would have been eligible) but as he's old, doesn't do many coverings, and doesn't go out he is no longer registered with them. Therefore my filly is not eligible. To me this seems silly because she still has the same breeding, it's just that Dad is no longer registered so therefore she is not eligible.

I think it is cutting out the small breeders and will become much more narrow in it's view as only offspring from 'currently registered and graded' Stallions can enter. Surely this means they will only have a limited amount of youngsters eligible rather than the wide range they used to have.
 
Hi, I emailed them directly and that's what they told me. I couldn't enter. Stallion is registered with Wetherbys NTR now(as it's cheaper apparently) so that's where covering certificate came from. My filly has an AES passport and is registered in the auxilliary stud book as I don't have Mum's pedigree.

There is a long list of eligibility criteria on their website.

I am not a breeder, this is the first foal I've bred and she is for me to keep so I don't really understand all the intracacies of it all but that's what they told me.
 
Elijahasgal - I responded to the other thread on this subject and I do agree with your thread on how the new regulations are going to push out the small breeder. On the new rules which are to "enhance british breeding" it seems that the BEF feel that using a graded stallion on any type of mare will produce the type of progeny they wish to have forward for assessment. If a breeder chooses to use a stallion which doesnt fulfil the BEF new rules say on a proven performance mare, then the resulting progeny is not eligible as the BEF have deemed in their wisdom that this progeny will not be able to compete at top level and only be a leisure horse! Something has gone terribly wrong in this thought process. Britain has in the past and will continue to produce top event horses its a shame the BEF have decided that they dont wish to support the many individual british breeders. This segregation is why we have fallen behind other countries in our breeding programs as it would help everyone if there was one body to help promote our breeding.
 
I'm sorry but having just re read the criteria, as I was unsure why a few of you thought that the criteria would discriminate so greatly I cannot see why you feel that this us a negative step.
Tb's on the general register are accepted, those on the nrt are accepted if they have a performance record or their progeny have secured good premiums. Registered natives, so all you welsh fans can rest easy, are accepted. So the TB x Welsh that is such a super eventing cross is acceptable.
If you are breeding with stallion s outside this which is really quite far reaching and inclusive then I'm Adair it dies not help develope the understanding of the gene pool based here in the uk and / or the raising of standards.
As for falling behind other countries? Breeding on the continnt has come about through the use of graded stallions from recognised stud books and has never negated the use of hobby breeders in their programmer , quite the opposite . The KwPN recognise the importance of such breeders, they too have a general ( basis) section of their stud book which recognises the allrounder.
The use of graded / registered/ performance tested sites can only improve the information for mare owners and is a good thing it does not exclude anyone and developes a cohesive inclusive structure to breeding.
 
Totally agree with everything Partoow says (even allowing for the typos <rofl >. If you read through the rules very carefully you will find that unless you really want to use a TB stallion that was too slow, unsound or temperamentally unmanagable to be able to score on the racecourse or compete successfully under saddle in sports competiton if that was his planned career
 
(sorry about unplanned break!) or you fancy an M & M or native / riding pony or PBA cross that either lacked the breeding or veterinary soundness to be approved as a breeding stallion by its mother or any other related studbook then you have nothing to worry about :-).
Bearing in mind how sports horse breeding has developed world Wide over the past 50
 
(Another unplanned break due to crazy new phone) years I am at a loss to see how using such untested stallions (if you are a mare owner) or standing One at stud (if you are a stallion owner) can seriously be said to damage the on-going improvement in British sports horse breeding. Perhaps I am missing something but I doubt it.
 
TBs do not get graded, and for them we are mainly on about eventers. We are fantastic at breeding eventers, with a bit of "common" blood to help find its fith leg!
How about the welsh horses, who can move, jump and have been crossed back to warmbloods to produce the warmblood ponies? Who is there to grade them? Or something with say clevland bay, excellent jumpers, but what society will grade them into their studbooks?
I am not against grading, I think it is useful, but I know too many graded horses that I wont touch, some very well known ones with soundness issues, passing on joint problems, the wonkiest legs, etc etc, as I like to go and look at what I am using and like it in all ways, and not just go with the trends (stupid I would probably make some money if I did). Some that dont grade compete to the highest levels, and one society that I know of will accept them, (If I understand their rules right) on the grounds that if they are up there, and sound, they must have something to add.
I would rather use an ungraded stallion, that is passing on all the right things, and is sound through the grades, than a graded one because it is the latest trend, that I believe may have soundness issues.
Exclusivness in the futurity excludes the possability that something good may be being missed, something may be passing on the goods that "shouldnt" some "strange" shire, tb, welsh clevland x cannot be good enough and should automatically be gelded.
 
elijahasgale please read through the rules themselves before assuming what they say. If you do you will discover that it is fully accepted that some of the best producing TBs have not been graded but have usually raced and acheived a GAG rating of at least 65 and are accepted on that basis. Aldo ALL native and native X stallions (including Welsh and WPBR) are OK as well and these and other ponies graded with the Sports Pony Studbook Society (which has been doping this for the type of ponies you mention so is hardly new)
 
Continued (!) are ALL also eligible as sires.

Sadly I think the rather alarmist and ill researched ítem in last weeks HH did much to cause unnecessary alarm because it was so vague about the many exemptions / extensions to the Basic 'graded' criteria which are specifically designed to be as inclusive as possible while still encouraging people to be as selective as they can possibly be about their choice of sire for the long term benefit of British breeding.
 
I'm not getting into the rights and wrongs of the proposed changes but just a couple of points:

TBs aren't the only horses that race. A lot of 'performance arabs' have achieved their performance on the track and the current futurity rules don't recognise that.

Native crosses are generally native on the dam side, as it's rare that someone will use a welsh D stallion on a blood mare for example, so these rules will knock out a lot of native crosses, particularly as the cross is often with an arab (see above comment about a major area of arab performance not being recognised) or a TB.

Part bred native stallions don't seem to be covered at all.
 
Just a thought here: Would it not be possible to analyse past results & retrospectively apply the new criteria? Hopefully this could give an indication of how many (including their results) would now be excluded as a result of the new criteria.
 
Dangerous idea Smee, love to see it happen but I think it is unlikely to be officially done.
I will go and read again Ciss as I had understood that WPBR stallions would not be eligible to send stock forward although can't remember from which draft that was of the rules. It is also all very to well include studbooks that members of the BHS breeds wotsit(will look up again in a minute for clarification) but getting the complete works of that list off them is a bloody nightmare. They tell me they don't keep a complete list to share but one can ask individually about stud books and breed societies and they can answer on that basis. Freedom of information made extremely painful as with everything in this country. To be honest I think the original rule should have been kept but perhaps discounts offered to those using Graded Stallions and mares. Much more encouraging and inclusive after all you don't get to educate people if you shut them out, they just feel more righteous and carry on elsewhere.
 
Cherrygarden said:
Dangerous idea Smee, love to see it happen but I think it is unlikely to be officially done.
I will go and read again Ciss as I had understood that WPBR stallions would not be eligible to send stock forward although can't remember from which draft that was of the rules. It is also all very to well include studbooks that members of the BHS breeds wotsit(will look up again in a minute for clarification) but getting the complete works of that list off them is a bloody nightmare. They tell me they don't keep a complete list to share but one can ask individually about stud books and breed societies and they can answer on that basis. Freedom of information made extremely painful as with everything in this country. To be honest I think the original rule should have been kept but perhaps discounts offered to those using Graded Stallions and mares. Much more encouraging and inclusive after all you don't get to educate people if you shut them out, they just feel more righteous and carry on elsewhere.
Click to expand...

For a full list of BHS Horse and Pony Breeds Committee members (which includes ALL native, M&M, rare breeds, NPS/BRP studbooks, plus CHAPS, BSPA, AHS (inc AA and PBA), SHBGB, BHHS, TBF, WBSUK, Cleveland, SPSS, Caspians, Haflingers, Morgan Horses, Quarter Horses and many others, contact Wendy Minor at the BHS and she will let you know. Most of the member societies (apart from Exmoors and I think Shetlands) have studbook / stallion approval systems for their part-bred stock too -- and the Welsh Part-breds feature very strongly in this group so were never excluded provided they were licenced by the WPCS -- so I am not sure where that misconception came from.

As far as the person who posted about racing Arabs is concerned, most of these stallions usually feature in the Endurance section and again -- if you read the rules carefully and don't automatically assume the worst without checking -- you will see that the classiifcation for the sires in this discipline is still very much under discussion so the qualifcation rules for the other sections will not apply until 2014 at the earliest. Also any Arab, AA or PBA stallion that has an AHS Premium or has successfully completed a NaSTA performance test (which is quite a number) are automatically eligible anyway so again Arab racing from has been considered and included in the most effective way for those planning to use such stallions for sport horse or pony breeding.

In all this, we do have to remember that the Futuirty is designed to concentrate above all on animals bred for Dressage, Showjumping, Eventing and Endurance and there are certain qualities that successful performers in these fields do have and which not all sires -- and certainly not stallions of doubtful origin, soundness, poor temperament, conformation or athelticism -- are likely to have or be able to pass on to their progeny, so even allowing for the wide variety of breeds and bloodlines unique to this country and on which much of our successful breeding has been based in the past, the line has to be drawn somewhere as to what is most likely to benefit the national sports horse and pony herd and its wide variety of breeders, trainers and riders consistently in the long run.
 
Okay I have re read the notes on eligibility including the new yellow bits and while British, Natives, indigenous and or rare breeds are included it does not actually mention partbreds so having read through the rest of the criteria one might sort of suspect that they wouldn't be even if licensed under partbred schemes. Glad that is not so however : ).
Sadly the rules have shot themselves in the foot somewhat if they want Welsh and partbreds forward by including this starry note at the bottom *Graded/approved/licensed means having been assessed for conformation, type, movement and correctness by a panel of professional judges appointed by the studbook concerned and accepted as a breeding stallion by that studbook. Any such process must also have included a five stage vetting with particular investigation of heritable or genetic conditions.
Whilst we don't like to mention this and there are instances where it suits some breeders, the Welsh Pony and Cob Society Stallion License doesn't fulfil the above criteria. The vetting seems to be as much or as little as any given vet decides to do, the nice lady on the end of the phone said I definitely shouldn't use my breeding specialist vet but a local less specialised one would be fine and there was not much too it. A.N other Welsh breeder has said that it was basically checking the trot was straight, if he could canter and be caught after they'd listen to his heart, check he could breathe and see and look in his mouth but lots of colts are not that handled so not to worry if mine was one of them as he'd most likely go through! For that reason my colt has not been put forward for WPBR license as cheap as it is it is very nearly worthless. Some of the licenses are much better vetted in fairness but many stallions eligible for Welsh Partbred are also eligible Weatherbys' VII which has a better vetting but cannot send stock through the Futurity. However under the above bit of writing the Suffolk Punch Stallions can especially as their license does include a pair of judges coming out to look at the colts but as they said themselves if the colt had already passed the vet the was little point them coming as they couldn't refuse the license now. I look forward to seeing Suffolk crosses in the eventing section.
It also seems a little daft that some societies will go on to Grade Stallions from native books that have been licensed with above nil genuine soundness standards but not ask for a new vetting, then that stallion can breed lots of potentially unsound foals and all can jolly along to Futurity.
Actually maybe I will license with WPCS and then when my boy is 6 and can go SPSS I can use that vetting and save a whole load of money if he passes.
I am well aware I am nit picking and all things look great on paper but no bugger is actually checking that was it is supposed to happen does and that makes an unfair ass of the entire system.
For my money I am not breeding this year and maybe not ever as the idiots that buy and own horses frighten me, but isn't it a bit silly that my yearling full sister to a First premium pony last year, who is now (subject to soft Welsh Pony license) potentially eligible to send stock forwards in his own right, cannot herself go forward to the Futurity.
And yes the stallion I own and use ticks all your negative boxes which is clearly why I use him.
There are some idiot breeders in this country but most of us are not them.
 
Thanks for the heads up about Wendy Minor, I am fairly sure that having read the website it was her I waited a year to speak to before with aforementioned result but perhaps I will try again to get hold of that list so I can compare the various license and grading procedures for stallions.
 
Smee said:
Just a thought here: Would it not be possible to analyse past results & retrospectively apply the new criteria? Hopefully this could give an indication of how many (including their results) would now be excluded as a result of the new criteria.
Click to expand...

I have all the results on a database, give me a bit of time and I will try to get the stats for you all :D
 
Ciss, it was me that said about the arab racing. I know full well that endurance doesn't come under the sire rules yet, but arabs/anglos do sire non-endurance performance animals too y'know.... ;)

On the plus side maybe it will send more stallion owners towards the AHS PPS which has only got to be good for the breed and the PPS. And of course the PPS does count racing results.

If it is true that part bred native stallions are also exempt then that is also re-assuring, but I must admit it doesn't read like that, as a part bred native is not a 'native breed', it is a part bred native.
 
My thoughts on the futurity are this :
Hold more days, lesser rates, every horse welcome. The days used to teach people what they are looking for in detail, with the mares confirmation and suitability publically discussed.
This should lead to stallions having in their adverts what the average score of their progney is (how many entered) This should be pushed to the degree that we start to ask why progney are not entered, why the info is not in the ads.
The down side of this from them, is that if the stallion is consistently producing horses lower that first premium, graded or not, the pressure should then be on to be removed from the breeding pool.
This would then put the Onus on the stallion owners to assess the mare that is being put to their stallion, and advise (and refuse) accordingly. Overall this would increase the general knowledge of strengths and weaknesses, and confirmation. Because it will be in the owners best interest for the good and decent mares only that will compliment their boy to be used.
The best should then go forward to a final, which is where they can showcase the best of british. Everyone happy

I have looked at several graded stallions to use on my one or two girls. Some I look at and wonder how the hell they have passed. Wonky legs, sweet horses that look like little ponies, with no movement and foot problems. World breeding champion with metabolic illness. Inheratable joint problems, lamenesses. Some of the best and popular names. If we go on it is graded and lisenced alone, we fall into the danger ground of it is graded it must be ok, without looking at combination of mare to stallion. And without improvement in that knowledge generally, how are we going to improve?

I ask the advice on my mares of the stallion owners, and usually follow it. If I phone up a big name, and get, essentially, just follow the trend, use this horse, I tend not to listen, as they have not assessed my mare when looking, on either bloodlines or for strnegths and weaknesses.

When we start looking and learning we will as a nation start to improve
 
Surprised the forum police have not picked up on the fact it is conformation not confirmation. As I have said in earlier posts re these changes I also agree that all stock should be permitted so breeders can get the education on what to be looking for. Also why should a bogof or accident be excluded.
 
I presume that the BEF has data from the previous years of Futurity to back up the opinion that ungraded stallions are producing horses not worth evaluating?
 
I have read the comments with interest and I think that there are a number of issues not raised that I have been pushing for, one is a list of the grading rules of the societies so that breeders can see the standards that a stallion has been graded by. Some studbooks only have in hand grading and some have leg xrays,vetting and ridden performance test for the 3 year old stallions and this is related to the results from the mare performance test (under saddle) so this helps to balance out the results from different stallion testing stations. One studbook looked at 10 progeny of seven year old stallions to see how the original evaluation has gone. The loss of Legacy data with the new NED as it will not be a requirement of the new provider to keep this will be a bad blow for breeders as it will be impossible to progress a breeding program to compete with our European competitors. I understand that the new marking rules for the Futurity will be the judges individual scores being averaged out and not a score agreed by the judges when the horse is in the arena. This could lead to lower scores overall as when judges discuss their evaluation and one judge has a score well out of line with the other judges it gives them a chance to review their opinion. Some studbooks have clear rules for older stallions who are graded on competition results and breeders can pay a small fee for stallions who do not pay the annual registration fee. Possibly the BEF Director of breeding might comment.
 
So where does and how does responsible breeding come in? Is it not irresponsible to have untested /graded / incomplete stallions about having a quick pop and let's see what it produces?
It comes back to the fact that a good sports horse is not necessarily a good progenator .
Having clear bloodlines and origins may not be perfect, nothing with horses ever is, but it does provide structure and thought and therefore encouragement of responsible breeding. Something the Futurity must be seen to endorse.
There is a lit of data collected during the coarse of the futurity I'm sure Jan would be happy to tell / show you anything that she seed as relevant.
 
Sywell I agree that it should be clearer to understand what grading/ approval / life status etc all mean with respect to stallions. I think it would endorse the process more and make it clearer as to the value or not of such examinations.
Also agree with data collection. As it is this that had made stud books like the KWPN so comprehensive and accountable.
Even to the fact that some stallions have had their license removed.
I also believe that a stallin should be graded along set criteria agreed by all stud books and if it fails a grading with a book it should not then see if it can find a book willing to take it.
This may be hard to implement but it was a consideration I had when grading my own stallion.
Had he not passed I would have gelded him regardless of his sport ability.
 
The stallion that I have used failed his grading, First time because he was immature, second with assessors contradicting one another. He has one thing I dislike about him, so I waited, ensured that he was not passing it on. He wasnt, but instead was stamping his stock with everything I liked about him. He has had two presented, one gained higher first. Owner now taking him down the performance route, and I have no doubt that he will be graded in a year or two.
One of the big stallion names in this country, I enquired about which he would suggest I put to my mare, without assessing my mare, strengths and weaknesses. Now my girl is GREAT, already produced an elite foal, but who is the more irresponsible? The mare owner who seeks advice, and maybe should be told that that horse wont suit that stallion, or maybe shouldnt be bred from, or the stallion owner/agent, who is it it for money, and ships semen to any tom dick or harry?
I have patrolled stallions, I like to see them, like them before I use them. I have seen graded stallions with the strangest confirmation, but move great. I have seen stallions that are like ponies, sweet kind, nothing to write home about with foot problems. I have seen stallions that are competing lame (and disguised by the short outline they are worked in) I have seen stallion with metabolic disorders.
Some stallions with these problems are really well though of, but what are they passing on?
I think with the pure emphasis on grading, without an increase in knowledge, a large percentage of Joe Public will go, graded, must be ok, without looking into it any more deeply. Will that help the situation?
And at the moment of finantial difficulty, if you breed to sell on, ultimatly people are going to go to the biggest names as most saleable. So we need the futurity more than ever to be highlighting for us the smaller names to keep maximum diversity, not make it all a show of half a dozen stallions, the few "trendy" lines, and let the surprising in.
Yes grading is very helpful, No it isnt everything. The horse that would have made the Olympics, and passed the right stuff on could have a field accident that makes it unsuitable for grading, OR performance, should it automatically be gelded? How can the stock then be prooved?
Again, if the stock of a stallion are consistently below a certain criteria, maybe first grade, then it should be either gelded OR if it is passing on a fantastic easy temprement, and fantastic confirmation and soundness, marketed as I lower level stallion for more novice riders, maximum.
How about the small breeder without enough confidence or huge finances to spare to put their young stallion through the grading process? This should be a showcase for them to learn if their boy is passing on the right traits that would make the investment for them worth taking.
Graded stallions are not everything, but they are a posotive, make the days educational for everyone, the mare owners in relation to their mare, how they can improve, what stallions maybe they could consider using, what and why, what areas of the mare need improving, etc, is that not the way forward?
 
How do you get independent advice of which stallion to use for your mare certainly it is unlikely to be the stallion owner. I am often asked can this foal be registered with xyz studbook as the stallion owner told me it would be . Well the stallion has never been approved by xyz studbook for breeding/yes it is an xyz studbook stallion but is approved by the 3 legged donkey society. When I look at a stallion book, it says a certain stallion has an estimated breeding value for the neck of 129 and for jumping technique and has 76 for jumping technique it has 761 progeny competing at Prix St George and the accuracy of its original breeding index is 98% I can then look at the stallion in the flesh. I normally ring up for chilled semen at 9 am from Germany and it arrives next morning at 7.30 am and costs 600 Euros exc p & P. My best mare competed at BD Nationals at Advanced and my best eventing horse had 56 points in its first season inc. 3 at CCI*. I only breed one or two horses a year and so a small breeder by using licensed stallions and graded mares can have a good success rate. Do not forget Totilas did not get licensed at his first attempt. Breeders must not forget that Eventing tracks have changed and our competitors immediately saw this change as their chance of success and the BMX track at the Olympics will show that quite clearly.
 
Just as a matter of interest I had a check through all the stallion rankings on the BEF site and guess what I found? Based on the many allowances for the very wide range of studbooks (including native and rare breeds and their crosses, sires of progeny already successful in the Futurity, successful racehorse stallions, successful ungraded sports horse stallions etc etc), NO dressage stallions whose progeny have entered in the Futurity so far are now excluded and the same goes for showjumping sires, endurance sires and sports ponies. There are, however, a maximum of 4 lowly ranked Eventing stalllions who might have problems but as one of these is a long dead TB and the top average score for even the highest of this group is 8.10 from a total of 4 progeny, that is hardly an earth shattering indication of a potential world class sire. So what is the problem? It seems to me that only those who never entered (and never intend to, including the usual 'the Futurity has shot itself in the foot with this' brigade <sigh) and / or those who do not have enough faith in the merit of their stallion to invest financially in his future by preparing / having him prepared and presenting / having him presented for grading -- or indeed licencing by any of the many UK or EU DEFRA approved studbooks -- are the small strident core of people making such a fuss about thse 'new' rules, the introduction of which has been loudly heralded on web sites, in rules and fact sheets etc for the past 4 years to my knowledge. Their motives for doing this, especially when they imply -- contrary to about 50 years mainland European experience of the proven positive effect grading and performance testing of stallions across all typoes of studbook (not just those of warmbloods and certainly including all nativeand sports pony breeds) -- that the new rules are detrimental to the improvemnt of British Breeding defeat me. OTOH, in the whole time I was breeding from mares or standing stallions (from 1977 to January this year when Rin died) I have never used an ungraded stallion, or for that matter owned an ungraded mare. OTOH perhaps I and the many others whose breeding criteria have been the same are completely wrong in our approach (which is the one that produced Farouche for instance) and to ensure success we should use the likes of these three or four stallions I have identified in order to really move British breeding on to unforseen new heights. I don't think so <sigh|>.
 
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