BEF Futurity

Oh elijahasgal, if only.
To me, the opinions and suggestions you have voiced are so blindingly obvious as the best way forward that I am not sure if there is any point arguing any more. The BEF will do what they choose anyway, for whatever reasons they try to convince us of.
I have to agree with stolensilver about the quality of stallion
grading anyway. Let's get that 100% right before pushing the
results onto breeders.
Surely if the young horse being evaluated is only any good if it's sire is graded then the others will fall by the wayside anyway, remaining low scored. Or is that to obvious. Do the evaluators not trust themselves enough to pick out the top quality youngstock, without the help of it's sire being already judged as such by someone else. Is there a worry of awarding an elite to a horse from an unknown stallion and putting down one from a super well known prestigious sire. It makes no sense to me. If the evaluation system at the BEF works well it will sort out the wheat from the chaff, without the risk of a perfect grain of wheat never being seen because it's sire, for whatever reason had not been approved by a different set of opinions.
 
Ciss said:
Sadly the many attacks on NED which has led to its demise
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A slight exaggeration Ciss as it was on the cards that the contract had to be renewed at this time, nothing sinister about that at all and 'the attacks' as you call them were simply people airing their frustration that the complete set up was wrong in the basic information REQUIRED from PIOs from the very start. A few people querying that was not going to be the cause of NED failing that is for sure.

Another very sensible post from Ribbons too, shame that the powers that be can't see that too but it's like hitting your head against a brick wall; it's their way or no way.
 
My major complaint about NED was how incredibly expensive it was! It would cost me £10 to look at the progeny records of a handful of stallions. I can't afford that. Added to it that much of the information is inaccurate and you get a situation where even people who are interested in using NED will not do so because it is priced out of their reach.

Ciss if you have any influence on whoever is going to take it over, can you suggest that they allow people to buy blocks of time for access to NED like allbreedpedigree do? If a subscription for 6 months cost £50 I'd do it. But I will not pay £1 per horse record accessed. Its way too much money!

My humble opinion is that NED priced itself out of the market and so got almost no users. If they'd been less greedy it would have become an essential research tool for many UK breeders, inaccuracies and all. What a shame to have squandered such a potentially valuable resource.
 
My problem with NED was it's inaccuracy. I have two mares listed as each having one foal each. Both have had several but not bred by me, because I hadn't paid to view these offspring I can't say how they were listed or if indeed they were at all.
However, a third mare I own was also listed as having one foal, she has had 4, all bred by me. I was able to find all 4 offspring on NED all listing the mare as their dam.
How does that work in any useful way. They record a mare as having one foal, but also record 4 foals as having her as their dam. Absolute rubbish system. About as much use as passports.
 
Most of these daft systems are introduced by people so arrogant as to think they, and only they know best, and then can't actually operate the system in any way that has any benefit. Just cash generating nonsense. But in the main, harmless apart from stripping owners of even more money. The new BEF system has however far more long reaching effects. I just hope that by the time it's realised, in several years, that it hasn't caused to much damage to British breeding. That some breeders have stuck to their guns and not chased the latest graded stallion just to be eligable to enter, otherwise we will have lost some very valuable breeding.
 
Maesfen said:
A slight exaggeration Ciss as it was on the cards that the contract had to be renewed at this time, nothing sinister about that at all and 'the attacks' as you call them were simply people airing their frustration that the complete set up was wrong in the basic information REQUIRED from PIOs from the very start. A few people querying that was not going to be the cause of NED failing that is for sure.
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Perhaps a little bit of an over simplification of the way things played out but not much. I agree the contract was due to be renewed anyway but what wasn't a foregone conclusion was what the requirements in the retender would be. If there had been more obvious support within the industry for a central data system that worked in such a way that breeding, competition results (and even grading results :-)) and full progeny linkages were key factors in the record keeping system, then these could have been built in to the tender as compulsory requirements by DEFRA in such a way that they were commercially attractive to tenderers. Sadly, given the very vocal lack of support for NED (for whatever reason) in certain areas within the industry (not just the breeding section but the disciplines too for example) and a general cost-cutting atmosphere in government then this was a non-starter for the retender document :-(. Of course there is always a possibility that the new holder of the contract (which might even be NED if they have applied again and then won it) might try to launch a service addressing the very real needs breeders, owners, breed societies, disciplines etc have regarding access to non-complusory (voluntary) data, but if they do it will be on a strictly commercial basis and have nothing to do with the main contract. Unfortunately although both I and Sywell are on the DEFRA Equine Experts panel we have no formal input on this (even though our views on it are well known), or on the choice of who wins the contract nor on anything related to the implementation of the contract ,so we will all just have to wait and see.

Another very sensible post from Ribbons too, shame that the powers that be can't see that too but it's like hitting your head against a brick wall; it's their way or no way.
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But if some of the posts in this thread are taken to their logical conclusion we seem to be working towards a situation where we should not use stallions graded abroad becuase they are professionally marketed and that might mean that some of them have faults and still get mares (surely this also happens with some UK stallions too?) and we should not use stallions that are graded with UK studbooks as the standards to which they grade are inconsistent and these studbooks have either graded stallions that people think should not have graded or failed stallions that people have either used / or wished to use (so the studbooks concerned are damned if they do and damned if they don't). Thus the only stallions that people should use are failed or ungraded ones and that therefore these are also the only ones that should have progeny eligible for the Futurity becuase of the lack of integrity in the grading processes here and abroad. While that would be very nice for the owners of these ungraded or failed stallions (who have already had several years to enter them and get good exemption-allowing scores anyway but who have signally failed to feature in any major way in the stallion rankings even so) it would decimate the Dressage and Showjumping entries (see my earlier post) and only leave a few sires with relatively low scoring entries in the Eventing section. I fail to see how this would be a good move for British breeding but then as I am also a grading judge (not with SHBGB or AES though) I suppose those who wish to see ill in my every thought would say I was just defending my own self-interests rather than trying, as usual, to set things in wider context.

As this thread has now become a rather arid repition of views (not same old/ same old just not progressing) I for one am signing off it, but as the rules will not change, except probably to get even tighter over time (as they actually warn in the Fact sheet) I would recommend that people spend the time they would have used in complaining about why they are not compliant and why the rules should therefore be changed back to suit them in the much more personally and financially rewarding task of working towards becoming compliant and show how much faith you have in your stallions qualities that way. I am sure that your mare owners and the purchasers of your stock would also be equally happy to support you and share in the resultant rewards :-)
 
I am a mare owner.

I do not own a stallion.

I am not suggesting people should not use graded stallions, wherever they were graded.

I am not suggesting only progeny from failed or ungraded stallions be eligible for entry in futurity.

What ridiculous comments.

I am suggesting that all youngstock are eligible and that they are evaluated on their own merit by people who are confident, experienced, and
willing enough to do so. Not to have a whole group of horses excluded from being seen because some people feel they know better than all breeders which stallions should be used.

But we will all have to bow to that superior knowledge, or not present our youngstock for what was a very useful evaluation.
 
I notice Ciss that you made no comments on what I suggested as a way forward. To make it more inclusive, more educational, Discussions with the owners of mares as to their strong and weak points, what they need to consider, and suggestions of stallions to use. The fact that if the information is there and widely and freely available, that the people that see things from an alternative perspective to yourself could be prooven by the results wrong or right. People in this country will respond better to that than "we know best"

As a very small breeder, I want to learn. This is my chance to show what I have to a knowledgable board, (And I have done so with success) and learn more about what I should be considering going forwards. I chose a stallion, and this years foal is a super in my eyes, but yes, I would like confirmation that what I am seeing is right. But as the stallion is going on the long route, grading on performance, which will take another year or two, how can I get that specialist panel of feedback?
I plan to use another stallion, fantastic bloodlines(By an olympic stallion), but on standard grading wouldnt grade, because he had to have carbon fiber implants in his back legs after an accident as a yearling. He has reached grade A, and yes because of that has his grading, but he only has a handful of foals on the ground.

As said many times I am not ANTI grading, just that it misses horses in certain criteria. And some that I have seen passed I REALLY dont know how.

And if someone on lower end income breeds something amazing (Possibly gains elite by Futurity) and wants to ensure that it is passing on all the right things before putting it forwards for grading, before making a huge investment to them?

The BEF mouth on another H&H forum stating clearly
"If you can;t afford to grade a stallion, don't own a stallion, if grading is going to put you in "severe financial straits", perhaps one shouldn't even own a horse, let alone a stallion. If you don't grade your stallion, you don't have enough faith in him, if you don't why the hell should anyone else? "

"The main difference between us and the continent is that we are a nation of animal LOVERS.".................you've just crossed the line into the world of bullshit. I've seen far greater cruelty and suffering on/of horses in the UK than I have in ten years of living in Europe.

""The thought of the animals just being a money making machine sickens the majority of us."..................you don't speak for everybody, just yourself"


"If someone breeds a cracking colt,"..................according to who? The owner? Pah!

" covers a few mares to ensure that he is passing on the right stuff,".....................again, according to who? Who says he's passing on the "right stuff"? the stallion owner? Pah!

" how and where can they go to get the youngstock reliably assessed now?"...............nowhere, because they're not approved, and if they're not approved, for the hundred reasons given already, they don't deserve it.


If this Ciss is the attitude of the BEF in increasingly difficult finantial times, the attitude towards grass roots breeders who have spent a long time learning what they have, heaven help the lot of us
 
I have a stallion that is now ineligable for the BEF and quite frankly is really doesnt worry me and i doubt it will make any differance to whether my stallion gets mares or not.
He has only ever had one offspring evaluated and that got a higher first premium at 4 weeks old and the owners were told if he had been older he would have gone elite.
Most of my mare owners arnt worried becuase they breed for a longer term not for a piece of paper.
Of the ones that would go out as foals they are more likely to go in showing classes and as he has produced a national show winner every year for the last four years in foal,youngstock and ridden classes that is enough for most people.
His ridden stock are now coming out with success so really people can see what they want to see from that.
We dont have the time to do the evaluations with our own stock anyway but i still managed to sell 6 out of 7 of my foals last year with the minimum of fuss and advertising so i guess my question is why would i bother it isnt really going to add anything to my foals/youngsters value or saleability.
The stallion has already done all that hard work for me.
 
Is there anybody in there?!!

The point is both sides have valid points, one thinks that they know all the answers, the other that they are not quite being heard

Better than liscenced stallions, with people crossing mares to him because, without looking at their strengths and weaknesses, is learning to cross the mare to a stallion that compliments.....not just the name.

There is a big hole there.

There is a hole where a stallion may be injured so ungradable, but does it stop him passing on the goods?

There is a hole where an owner may cross their lad to a few mares and want to see the results and get honest feedback before deciding if he is worth grading or not.

The Must be graded see that as an attack on them and their rules, when they are not, they are appeals for the gaps to be filled.

I can see their point, but being this country think that they are missing certain aspects of our countrys mindset. We dont change because we are told we must, but because it is prooved to us.
 
Maybe it should be changed to Warmblood Futurities ? and just for Show Jumpers and Dressage youngsters.
And another Futurity set up for British Breeding for any breed of stallion actually standing in the UK..Graded or not.
Then you would actually get a true picture of what we are actually breeding and how to improve for the discipline we've bred for.
If Ungraded stallions are producing rubbish, then it will be seen..if they are producing good stock, it will be seen. Likewise with Graded stallions
The panel would have to be from a wide variety of disciplines not just Dressage and Show Jumping ( showing, endurance etc.)and of equal experience and authority...otherwise opinions may be swayed if felt undermined.
That way some breeds won't have to be forced to join other studbooks that will take the credit for their stocks achievements. For instance Weatherby's or British Riding Pony Studbook not given credit because it's graded with another studbook.

That's my suggestion...but I would not have a clue how it would be set up? anyone know?
 
Of course there is another side, in that our horse production suits OUR market. Why should we try and emulate a system that has a market that doesnt match our own?
 
The examination of stallions for grading can also be seen as a long term support for the welfare of the horse as we are aware breeding a horse that has health problems pushes them into the hands of people who cannot afford to pay vets bills and the major societies in Europe as I have said before are constantly improving their standards and I am sure many people can nit pick on those standards but tell me which organisation in the UK can meet those standards and I list below the latest Hanoverian standards. Our approved judges have to go to Germany every three years for a refresher course and go on a grading commission where they will be expected to asses hundreds of horses in the week and we are doing everything we can to improve the quality of the evaluation.
Annex to the Statute of the Hannoveraner Verband

Regulations regarding the state of health to be met by colts for being eligible for licensing


X-ray findings:
A colt is not admitted to licensing in case of big osteochondral fragments in the stifle or both the hocks as well as in the case of severe navicular findings or spavin findings of X-ray classes II – IV and bone cysts. In addition, to be admitted to the sale the colt must be free from other clear findings which may limit its capabilities as a riding horse.

Clinical findings:
A colt is not admitted to licensing
- in case of defects as laid down in the Kaiserliche Verordnung of 1875 as well as in case of the defect weaving (exception for uveitis)
- in case of an overbite of more that half a tooth width
- if the testicles do not reach the following measurements (cm)
Right testicle:
Length: ……………. (7.17) Width: ……. (4.77) Height: …………. (5.08)
Left testicle:
Length: ……………. (7.81) Width: ……. (4.88) Height: ………….. (5.04)
- in case of additional significant defects of the sexual organs
- in case of neurological disorders of the locomotor system
- in case of severe deformations of the hoof/hooves

Surgical interventions:
A colt is not admitted to licensing if it underwent surgical interventions for the purpose of physical corrections in order to remove one of the elimination criteria mentioned above.
 
Sywell I'm perplexed at the rules you have published because I know for fact that all German studbooks do not have the same standards. Take as an example Oldenburg. I was at last years licensing and I know for sure that 12 of the top 15 licensed dressage colts had OCD lesions. Since one of the top ones was 100% Dutch blood that meant that 12 of 14 of the best young colts in Oldenburg with solely German blood have OCD.

Add to that one had a curb as big as your fist. Another had bone spavin. As a 2yo! And a third had such bad cow hocks they knocked together as the horse moved.

I really do not think that we in the UK should be following Oldenburg and starting to license colts with so many issues. I'm still horrified by what happened there and think the Oldenburg breeders are being let down by their stallion selectors. Movement is not everything. And the way the Europeans do things is not necessarily the model we should choose for UK stallions. German buyers generally aren't bothered if a young horse has a chip in a joint (a small OCD lesion). In the UK it would kill the sale. We do have different markets and that should be taken into account by the UKs studbooks.

The thing I would most like the UK stallion selectors to adopt from Europe is to look at the overall herd genetics and to approve stallions who carry rare bloodlines even though they might fall just below the standard in other ways. Obviously I'm not suggesting they approve a poor stallion just because of his pedigree but if a stallion with rare and proven bloodlines is good but not quite in the top group IMO he should get a limited license to be allowed to cover 20 mares a year and then reassessed in 4 years time based on his progeny.

As I said before at the moment I don't trust the selection process of the SHBGB. It seems to be run and dominated by showing people who have little to no idea about sports horses. I have no interest in a show horse and the days when a show horse went on to be a top class evener or show jumper have long gone. There never were very many of them. I have no issue with potential show horse sires being graded. I have great issue with potential top sports horse stallions being failed. I don't own a stallion BTW, this is simply my opinion having followed the SHBGB gradings over several years. I also have deep misgivings about the secrecy surrounding the whole grading process. It has to be transparent. The scores and the reasons for the scores have to be made public. And the results need to be published promptly ie within a week of the grading happening. Right now it is pretty much a shambles and the secrecy allows rumours and doubt to creep in as to why some stallions were chosen and others were not. Stallion gradings are a way to publicise a studbook. We should be doing international press releases about which new stallions have been approved. Instead we get whispers and rumours where no one is even sure who passed and who didn't because the studbook has not announced the results to anyone other than the owners. Madness!

So, to get back to the Futurity, until the UK studbooks get their act straightened up I don't think the Futurity should close their doors to unlicensed stallions. The Futurity could show up a very smart stallion who is unlicensed (like Goshka Ringo) and if the stallion selectors have made a mistake by failing a good stallion maybe the Futurity could help him to gain his license in the future?
 
Sywell you are also making a huge assumption that ALL stallion owners who do not grade their boys initially do not have x-rays or health checks carried out. I have no intention of using my boy this year, I consider him too young still and I want to see him as a four year old and under saddle before I make a final decision. However, if I was to use him prior to grading I would still have x-rays and other health checks undertaken because I would not wish to pass on any issues to the foals, who are hugely important.

I agree with Stolensilver too, far too many graded stallions do have health issues, but because they are graded "that's ok then?" - do any of the studbooks keep records of which stallions with OCD or other health issues which are known at the time of grading are passing on these same issues to their youngstock?
 
As far as I know the only studbook to publish x ray and other veterinary issues discovered at grading are the KWPN. Oldenburg definitely do not but the x rays are available for viewing during the licensing so if you are there you can find out the information. After the licensing it all disappears in a puff of smoke (and mirrors!)

Again this is only my opinion but I think the German bloodlines are riddled with OCD because at least two of their major stallions suffered from it: Donnerhall and Rubinstein. It is hard to find a German stallion that does not have Donnerhall in their pedigree somewhere these days and some are inbred to him 4x in 4 generations. I'm not in any way saying that Donnerhall is a name to avoid. He was one of the greats and passed on great trainability and athleticism. But I am saying that my personal opinion is to be wary of using a German stallion if I don't know what was found on his X-rays.

This all goes along with transparency. Breeders need to have all the facts in order to make decisions on which stallion to choose. Bretton Woods has OCD. It's general knowledge because he's a KWPN stallion. It hasn't dented his popularity. On the other hand Don Primero was well known for having OCD and for passing it on so his popularity decreased somewhat over time as it was found in his offspring. Yet Don Primero is very closely related to Don Schufro, same sire, dams are full sisters. And I have no idea of the OCD status of DS. I would dearly love to know!

So if UK studbooks are going to change anything in response to the opinions of their members (highly unlikely but I can hope) is can they make the whole process of stallion grading and also mare grading transparent. Publish the veterinary and x ray findings. Publish their opinions on conformation, paces and jump.

If UK studbooks do this they will be offering breeders something they can't get from any other studbook apart from the KWPN. That is full disclosure of the OCD status and vet check of their stallions. And with the UK market being very wary of veterinary issues if UK studbooks were to make this change is likely they would attract more breeders to UK stallions rather than the opposite. All things being equal I'd pick an OCD-free stallion every time. One stallion being less proven but having no veterinary issues I'd pick him over a stallion with curbs and so on.

Altering the veterinary criteria for licensing does work. Several years ago the KWPN cracked down on navicular changes in their stallions and withdrew the licenses of stallions who had it. Within 10 years the KWPN went from having a high incidence of navicular to having almost no horses with it. The UK could be like that. We've just got to want to do it.
 
I personally know of one hanoverian stallion that I used, that when the youngster developed bad growth bumps, (I had already reused him) and I said something to the owner, she told me, thats unusual, Its usually his yearlings and 2yos that show that problem.

Dimaggio is chronically Laminitic
Bretton Woods OCD (I am told)
Totilas failed his grading first time

I go to meet the stallions I want to use, I have to like them. I have to think that they will suit my mare, and improve her the way that I want. I may look at stallions of a certain line, because it carries a salable element, but in this country I was looking for a Sandro Hit stallion. I saw 5 I think, used one, produced a cracking foal. but of the others one was nothing more than a really pretty show horse, no movement, nothing special, and with foot problems to boot. Another, who is making his name, his front legs were a disaster....straight but not, I cant explain, apart from I had the impression that he had been over trimmed and overcorrected to straighten him as a foal. His hind end didnt look like it belonged to the same horse, and so narrow. A third was ok, but nothing special, and the fourth had nothing. The one I used I liked, and she suited my girl, and produced an amazing foal.

But seeing these graded stallions, and finding out things that you find out, makes you wonder, and then finding out the waste figures, the amount that are lame, where this nice ungraded stallion might be throwing out stock that is solid and sound, and produces great crosses, that suit OUR market for horse lovers, riding club, and on, not the continental market.
 
The approval of other studbooks is not Hanovers problem. I would be interested to learn what stallions that have not been approved by a recognised studbook would have owners who make available xrays to prospective clients. As someone said the xrays are available for anyone to see at the licensing. I still would like to know which UK studbooks have anything like our initial Vet requirement for stallions. The WBFSH was looking into through I think Upsala University the length of time a stallion stays in active competition overall but it was very difficult to get a big enough sample to make accurate predictions due to the movement of stallions and the lack of accurate data from some member studbooks. The likely loss of legacy data through the new contract for the DEFRA database is certainly not going to help British Breeders support their case for British Breeding
 
Stolen silver says Publish the veterinary and x ray findings. Publish their opinions on conformation, paces and jump.

If UK studbooks do this they will be offering breeders something they can't get from any other studbook apart from the KWPN. I suggest they look at the published data on the estimated breeding values for conformation and paces in the Hanoverian Year Book or the Hanoverian website and the proved accuracy of the data when there a hundreds of progeny competing.
 
You can find the breeding and data on any breed of horse/pony that has competed with an affiliated society eg. BE, BD, BS , SHB GB, and the Showing societies (Breeds and Types) and the FEI etc etc etc. ......World sire rankings, National Sire rankings for each discipline.....so confused to why people think the Warmblood studbooks are the only ones you can get information from ?
I'm still bewildered by the way everyone is referring to Warmblood breeding...British Breeding is meant to include all the breeds we have and use for all disciplines.
 
sywell said:
The approval of other studbooks is not Hanovers problem. I would be interested to learn what stallions that have not been approved by a recognised studbook would have owners who make available xrays to prospective clients.
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I am not saying there are any, I don't have a clue what any other stallion owner does. All I am saying is you were assuming no one did. If I ever used my boy prior to grading I would want xrays done to know my own foals were going to be ok. Surely it is the foal after all who is the most important aspect of this? I would also happily show his xrays to anyone who was interested in using him (if I decided to progress him at stud). For the life of me, I cannot think of a reason not to, if I think enough of him to use, and he must have good xrays for this to be the case - alongside everything else about him - then why would I not wish to show them, surely they form part of a sales package? Why would any stallion owner not wish to? Are there any who would not?
 
Truly said:
I'm still bewildered by the way everyone is referring to Warmblood breeding...British Breeding is meant to include all the breeds we have and use for all disciplines.
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sorry, I can only speak for myself but I haven't bred anything other than a Warmblood. Maybe some of the breeders of other types need to speak up also?
 
The first foal I had was an accident. She was out of a mare that I rescued. She was still really weak, when an 18month colt got in with her, injured her back, and made her unridable. The resultant foal was fantastic. The movement on her unbelivable. From her, I got interested in breeding.

I knew the sires lines, but because of his age, I could not get my girl papered (That rule has since changed, for the better in my opinion) So I went to the colts sire twice.

One is now competing dressage, just qualified from the regionals again, and has been told that she could go the whole way. the second with his new owners managed to pierce a joint, and while he came sound, it has triggered joint changes. :(

So loving what I was doing I brought a second mare, a tb out of a stud, graded her in with the hanoverian society, and had two foals by hanoverian stallions.
The first was by an old hanoverian, had the easiest most loving nature, stayed entire until he was 4, because he was no trouble to have around
The second was by a younger hanoverian, and I loved him so much I crossed him to my other mare. and found another young hanoverian for my old rescue mare. I looked and traveled to so many graded stallions, and it opened my eyes to what crap is graded. The one by the reused younger stallion developed growth bumps badly, when I said something to the stud, oh yes, but its not usually till they are yearlings/2yo that they get a hint of OCD. WHAT?!! I thought that the grading was supposed to weed things like that out, and 6 years later he is still at stud. I also brough a third mare, Sent her to a local competition yard, where they had a selection of stallions, and they advised me which one to use.

So these two foals came along. Then first (new young stallion, my rescue mare) was amazing, paces, temprement, you name it. The second was brilliant in all ways EXCEPT he temprement, nuttiest thing going. I refused to breed again from that mare, and gave her away.
Third foal arrived, late foal, and wow what a stunner.

So, I sent my third mare back to the same stallion, gave my rescue a year out. The resultant foal was even better. So I did the same line again.
Of those three foals, one gained an elite, one a higher first, and the third was sold back to the stud as a stallion prospect.

Early last year I realised that the back injury in my rescue was going downhill fast. So the covering that I had paid for for her, I used on my third mare. This years foal arrived, and is another WOW. Difference, I cannot take it to the futurity, as its sire has not yet got his grading as he is going down competition route.

Now yes, I want to have back up that my small one person band is producing the goods, and I cannot do the futurity, so I will have to do the breed show that has probably got more credability and sway anyway. I as a small person need that backup. that confirmation that my stock is as good as I think that it is. That is my big beef, where do the people with horses that do not fit into one specific society now go? What about seeing if the youngstock produced is ok before grading? What about the stallion that is out of olympic lines that cannot go from scarring from an accident. Does that mean that he is any less good (still competed to grade A and gained grading that way even with carbon fiber implants)

What about the small stud, that competes as priority, should they not have stock from their stallion before it grades, if they are experienced, they will know the quality they are sat on before anyone else.

I am only small small level. Assistance to the grass routes, and knowledge of what I am missing is the most important thing for me.
 
I have been to a few Futurities to observe and can only say I have been confounded by some of the awful conformation I have seen, particularly in the hindlegs, that have won first premiums. It was almost as if they wanted to make everyone happy, so get repeat business..but how can you trust their judgement if they are not really assessing what is before them. Nobody actually walked around each horse put forward. Half of the entries were standing at such an angle as it to be almost impossible to see exactly how the horse was put together.

How can we move forward if the "favourite" stallions progeny seem to have the higher scorings. If it is true that the assessors will not be privy to the breeding before they have passed judgement, then this may make the process fairer. Showing has always been accused of face judging. Rightly or wrongly. Let us hope that this is not the caee with the Futurities.

I also understand that stallion owners don't like to turn away unsuitable broodmares, but then they must also accept the fact that the resulting progeny may become a bad advertisment for their stud.

On the subject of OCD, one only had to see the top priced SJ at Addington sales was sold BACK to Germany, despite showing 5 x-rays with OCD!

I have to admit that I have been shocked by the postings telling everyone about how prevalent OCD is in well know stallions. Food for thought indeed!
 
Sywell there is nothing in the Hanoverian yearbook about OCD, spavins or other veterinary issues. Having the X-rays available to look at if you are brave enough to go through the registration process and look at them one by one is not good enough. The only studbook that releases information about OCD and puts it in the public domain is the KWPN. I'd like UK studbooks to follow KWPNs lead on this and to take on board that to buyers in the UK, OCD is a big deal and it not something we want our foals to have so it is not something we want UK stallions to have either.

I know OCD is multifactorial but there is more and more evidence that inheritance is a major factor and it's easy to screen for it and easy to publish those results. As a breeder I want to know.
 
Many of the studs in Europe seem to breed enormous quantities of foals each year on the basis that they will end up with a few who are health issue free AND talented. It is only a percentage of these few who make it to the top. So to have the European view, if that is what it is, of accepting OCD stallions, or any other health issue, for grading, as ok "as some foals will be ok given the amounts we breed" is definitely NOT what should be happening in the UK. So as SS says we should be demanding full view of health reports of all stallions standing in the UK so that we can continue to breed less quantity but a higher quality foal - and Europe should be taking the lead from the UK in that, we don't always have to follow. After all, what do people think happens to those foals who don't make the grade in Europe?
 
stolensilver said:
Sywell there is nothing in the Hanoverian yearbook about OCD, spavins or other veterinary issues. Having the X-rays available to look at if you are brave enough to go through the registration process and look at them one by one is not good enough. The only studbook that releases information about OCD and puts it in the public domain is the KWPN. I'd like UK studbooks to follow KWPNs lead on this and to take on board that to buyers in the UK, OCD is a big deal and it not something we want our foals to have so it is not something we want UK stallions to have either.

I know OCD is multifactorial but there is more and more evidence that inheritance is a major factor and it's easy to screen for it and easy to publish those results. As a breeder I want to know.
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OCD has many interrelated causes from over feeding to lack of exercise and with the progress that is being made with DNA we will be able to do more to eliminate this problem. Johann Knapp has done a lot of work on this subject and heritable factors are only one of the factors. As we do not have a standard practice of xraying horses in the UK we have no idea how prevalent this problem is. More breeders should pay more attention to feed and usable copper in feed. If you know what the vet requirements of stallions are then you know what has not been found so there is no need to say what is not found. The studbooks are keen to make progress and the horses the BHHS are producing like Farouche and Deveraux III show that we can produce the young stock.
 
sywell said:
If you know what the vet requirements of stallions are then you know what has not been found so there is no need to say what is not found.
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I am really trying to learn more about the processes so can you explain this bit to me a little more? Stolensilver is saying that only the KWPN say if a stallion has OCD showing on their xrays, so if other some studbooks don't, how do we as mare owners find out what showed up on the xrays if they don't have to state it? Obviously if studbooks don't allow OCD stallions then we can guarantee a stallion who has been graded doesn't have it, but it doesn't seem that cut and dried? I would not just want to focus on this condition though, I would want to know about any condition the stallion had.

I do appreciate that some breeders aren't worried at all about OCD and say it can be caused by overfeeding etc but I would still prefer to use one without it.
 
sywell said:
OCD has many interrelated causes from over feeding to lack of exercise and with the progress that is being made with DNA we will be able to do more to eliminate this problem. Johann Knapp has done a lot of work on this subject and heritable factors are only one of the factors.
Click to expand...

But it is still a factor and being able to make our choices regarding stallions would be easier if the studbooks released their findings. My vet was on the Selle Francais evaluating panel for young horse x-rays for 6 years, she could tell us a thing or two about some of the stallions! All findings were reported to the studbook, but the vets opinions have to be kept to themselves! However, I know which stallions I need to avoid in the future.
 
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