before and after... barefoot trim

It has to be said, not all farriers are good. There are still part 4 farriers taking peoples money. However, I have put time and effort into finding a good one, and I treat him well!! I wouldn't have a crap farrier, nor would I use a trimmer.

The reason in my experience, that trimmers take longer, is that they are less experienced. I have seen someone 'trimming' who has taken half a day over two horses.. Apart from anything else, they get very fed up.
 
Brandy said:
It has to be said, not all farriers are good. There are still part 4 farriers taking peoples money. However, I have put time and effort into finding a good one, and I treat him well!! I wouldn't have a crap farrier, nor would I use a trimmer.

The reason in my experience, that trimmers take longer, is that they are less experienced. I have seen someone 'trimming' who has taken half a day over two horses.. Apart from anything else, they get very fed up.
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Sounds like you only have experience with a poor trimmer. They should take no longer than a farrier would. If the feet are pathological and/or the horse is very lame and cannot lift the feet easily then the trim will obviously take longer.

It's simply untrue that all trimmers are less experienced than all farriers :confused: Many are just as or more experienced and trim a larger number of horses per month than a farrier shoes. My trimmer has 500 horses on her books!
 
Cluck said:
Sounds like you only have experience with a poor trimmer. They should take no longer than a farrier would. If the feet are pathological and/or the horse is very lame and cannot lift the feet easily then the trim will obviously take longer.

It's simply untrue that all trimmers are less experienced than all farriers :confused: Many are just as or more experienced and trim a larger number of horses per month than a farrier shoes. My trimmer has 500 horses on her books!
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So true!!
 
I understand your frustration with bad farrier’s, it’s personal preference I guess and whether you can get a good farrier in the area you are in, my farrier looks at where the wear is on the foot and trims accordingly, my horses don’t need shoes and don’t think they ever will.

I just think that people waste a lot of time on these barefoot trimmers - you do know that ANYONE whether they have been trained or not can call themselves a barefoot trimmer - You can do it yourself although it's not advisable!!
 
CBFan said:
Leviathan... have you ever considered taking your lami mare barefoot? My friend's Andalusian got several bouts of lami last year but was managed well barefoot. since moving to more suitable grazing he has not had lami.
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Well she was still doing sponsored rides until this bout of lami. And had another planed for October. She went funny between the april one and the may one. I put it down to her Asthma. but then the weekend of july 12 i went away long weekend came back and she was lame. treated her for tendon then abscess.

Vet recommended a farrier to take her shoes off which he did and they did look better. Then 3 weeks later no better , Then vet said xray which in turn showed up lami in one foot ( she must got a mild form last year as same thing happened ). and to get a farrier asap to correct the shape to help the slightly rotated pedal bone.

They said try a guy called Billy so I did , wow did the feet look better but he wanted to put special shoes on to support the frog and stop rotation.

I said to my liveries who had come and they said wow Billy Crothers you know who that is , I said no. ONly been world champion farrier 5 times :D:cool: wow I said that explains the £114 bill .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOJkWUlAEEo

With this concept in mind, Billy Crothers, five times World Champion Farrier, with his wife Lucy Diamond, Managing Director of Hand Made Shoes (UK) Ltd, started up their annual shoe making competition three years ago. The competition has entries from all over the UK and this year has attracted stars such as Steven Beane, twice former Reserve World Champion Farrier, and Andrew Casserley, current Reserve World Champion, fresh back from The Calgary Stampede, Canada where the “Worlds” are held.

Billy Crothers is passionate about the farrier work which he also considers to be his sport. “We train physically and mentally for competition shoe making. I find it improves my analysis of horses’ feet and the way I shoe. Competition shoe making can be very exciting as the farriers often only have a very limited period of time to create a horse shoe from a steel bar. The contest format means we are developing some very good farriers in the UK and this will be good for the equestrian industry as a whole”

So in answer to your question about her going barefoot I have to do what Billy says he is the best .

Since found out through a friend that another horse down the road has my vet and Billy and her horses pedal bone had almost gone through. And now he is sound and competing show classes.
 
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Intouch- that infuriates me, my OH is in his 3rd year of his apprenticeship and when at college they are STILL learning about the hoof, they actually have a 2hour (at least) class per day dedicated to the hoof and learning about it!

OP- each to there own and if it works for your horse then great! Again I am lucky as my OH and his boss are fantastic at trimming, my pony goes without shoes and my show jumper is shoeless behind and copes extremely well! They shoe or they trim and they follow the rule; if your horse can cope without shoes then fantastic we'll trim it rather than shoe it but you can only tell if you try - not a bad rule to follow really is it.

They would rather trim horses all day then shoe them as it saves there backs a hell of a lot more (my OH is 21 and already has to have weekly back treatments), but again only if they horse can cope.

Also, were the before photo's taken the day the farrier did them or the day the trimmer was due?

:-)
 
Stelzar said:
I understand your frustration with bad farrier’s, it’s personal preference I guess and whether you can get a good farrier in the area you are in, my farrier looks at where the wear is on the foot and trims accordingly, my horses don’t need shoes and don’t think they ever will.

I just think that people waste a lot of time on these barefoot trimmers - you do know that ANYONE whether they have been trained or not can call themselves a barefoot trimmer - You can do it yourself although it's not advisable!!
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The problem with farrier trims (in general) is that farriers are used to preparing a foot for a shoe, which requires flattening the outer portion of sole so that it does not bruise when a shoe is applied. Most farriers will simply leave more hoof wall when trimming for barefoot. I say 'in general' and 'most' because a few farriers have learned the difference between trimming for a shoe and trimming for barefoot.

Some critical differences between a good barefoot trim and a typical 'farrier' trim is to allow the foot to grow concavity, build up thick sole for protection under P3 and retain the sole callous. A healthy barefoot is nowhere near flat and will have a natural arch at the quarters.

Learning to trim your own horse, or touching up a trim is not difficult at all and requires taking far less from a foot than an average farrier would.
 
I have used both and seen good and bad i both- but I have become more and more fed up of farriers who don't arrive on time/don't show at all/ never answer your calls etc or wont come up unless there is another horse on the yard that needs shoing because "one trim is not really worth my time" despite the fact my pony needed it for his health. I'd pay 10% more for a podiatrist trim if they were reliable and good. My current farrier trims well but only comes up if a horse needs shoing- pain in the backside but no barefoot trimmers within an hour of me. My curret farrier charges £25 for a trim. When I had a barefoot trimmer down in essex she charged £45 for the first trim then £30 for the following trims.
 
SpottyTB said:
They shoe or they trim and they follow the rule; if your horse can cope without shoes then fantastic we'll trim it rather than shoe it but you can only tell if you try - not a bad rule to follow really is it.

They would rather trim horses all day then shoe them as it saves there backs a hell of a lot more (my OH is 21 and already has to have weekly back treatments), but again only if they horse can cope.



:-)
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The problem is that the majority of farriers faced with a footie barefoot horse will simply shoe it, instead of working out why it is footie. And since most footiness is caused by an unbalanced diet unsuited to that particular horse then the problem is not being solved, the cause is simply being masked.

When more farriers ACTIVELY try and keep horses out of shoes, I will have greater confidence in the profession as a whole. There are a few marvellous ones, but if you think about the length of time it takes to shoe versus trim then it goes without saying that a good, experienced barefoot trimmer (by which, in this context, I mean anyone who does not shoe but is paid to trim, farrier or not) is going to have FAR more experience of managing working barefoot horses.


OP I am glad that your trimmer has talked to you about diet because your horse clearly has very stretched white lines. I am aware of a possible predisposition amongst Cleveland Bays to EPSM, which might be a cause of that. It can often be addressed by a high oil high vitamin E diet and a strict control of grazing. You might like to check out the symptoms and consider it.

I would be concerned if your trimmer tries to allow you horse to grow higher heels, which seems to be suggested by what you wrote. One, they might simply slide forward under his foot. Two, if they grow down they may take his frog out of contact with the floor and this would not be good. If he was mine I would want his heels to be built up with regular work now his toe is being properly addressed by the trim, not with growth.

I think the trimmer trim is clearly better than the horrible long toed foot your farrier was leaving him with!
 
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Toby_Zaphod said:
My barefoot trimmer is called a farrier, he has trained for years to qualify in this country which has the highest standards of farrier training in the world. He has no worry regarding people wanting their horse to go barefoot, he will trim or fit shoes, whatever you want. He does take exception at people who attend a 3/5 day course, practice on some deceased horses feet & at the end are given some tools & go home to chop away at their horses feet & I feel likewise.

http://www.equinepodiatry.co.uk/#/courses/4533194689

I understand that there are further qualifications that can be obtained, many by way of distance learning packages/dvds etc, but to be honest I fail to see how adequate, comprehensive training can be given by this method. Everyone to their own decision but I will remain with my highly qualified & highly competent, fully trained & experienced farrier.
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TBH, that one does sound scarey, especially as they are including tools in the cost. As with every professional, it's up to the horseowner to check their credentials.
 
intouch said:
TBH, that one does sound scarey, especially as they are including tools in the cost. As with every professional, it's up to the horseowner to check their credentials.
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I'm not sure it is scarey, it's an introduction course, it isn't sending people out to start trimming. It can be used as the very first part of the IAEP if people want to pursue that much longer course of study. If you check the IAEP list of qualified trimmers (as I'm sure everyone would before using them) the names of people who have done this course will definitely not be on it!
Trevor Jones is a respected professional, I am sure he makes this quite clear to the students.
 
Looks like a tidy trim. I still would only use a farrier though. Someone on my yard has just started using a barefoot trimmer and she said that she was very impressed as they discussed the diet and all sorts before she even started on the trim.
 
Tinypony said:
I'm not sure it is scarey, it's an introduction course, it isn't sending people out to start trimming. It can be used as the very first part of the IAEP if people want to pursue that much longer course of study. If you check the IAEP list of qualified trimmers (as I'm sure everyone would before using them) the names of people who have done this course will definitely not be on it!
Trevor Jones is a respected professional, I am sure he makes this quite clear to the students.
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Tinypony I know that and I know Trevor is a well respected AEP, but if you look at the course from an "anti's" point of view, you can see how it might give them ammo!
 
Oh, I agree Intouch. But at least we'd be able to quote the course description back at them...
"The three day program is designed to give equine professionals and horse owners a thorough introduction to the science of Applied Equine Podiatry."
 
The reason I say that farriers are more experienced - what I actually meant was most farriers I know have actually done more trimming and shoeing than the trimmers i know, a couple of which only trim at weekends while continuing their day job through the week - simply, the more you do something like this, the fitter you get, and more able, and probably more confident.

I worry at a trimmer that has to draw lines on the sole to 'balance' the hoof.

My farrier is excellent. I have one shod all round and two unshod.
 
cptrayes said:
The problem is that the majority of farriers faced with a footie barefoot horse will simply shoe it, instead of working out why it is footie. And since most footiness is caused by an unbalanced diet unsuited to that particular horse then the problem is not being solved, the cause is simply being masked.

When more farriers ACTIVELY try and keep horses out of shoes, I will have greater confidence in the profession as a whole. There are a few marvellous ones, but if you think about the length of time it takes to shoe versus trim then it goes without saying that a good, experienced barefoot trimmer (by which, in this context, I mean anyone who does not shoe but is paid to trim, farrier or not) is going to have FAR more experience of managing working barefoot horses.


OP I am glad that your trimmer has talked to you about diet because your horse clearly has very stretched white lines. I am aware of a possible predisposition amongst Cleveland Bays to EPSM, which might be a cause of that. It can often be addressed by a high oil high vitamin E diet and a strict control of grazing. You might like to check out the symptoms and consider it.

I would be concerned if your trimmer tries to allow you horse to grow higher heels, which seems to be suggested by what you wrote. One, they might simply slide forward under his foot. Two, if they grow down they may take his frog out of contact with the floor and this would not be good. If he was mine I would want his heels to be built up with regular work now his toe is being properly addressed by the trim, not with growth.

I think the trimmer trim is clearly better than the horrible long toed foot your farrier was leaving him with!
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Cptrayes, I'm glad you posted! I know you mentioned the predisposition to epsm before and although I hadn't forgotten about it completely I had put it to the back of my mind. I have to say that having looked into it some more it does look quite possible that my boy has it. He does show quite a lot of the symptoms including: stiffness after long periods in his (rather large) stable and reluctance to walk on, reluctance to go forward in work (to the point where we haven't done much cantering at all (I could probably count on one hand the number of times he has cantered for me on the lunge never mind under saddle), shortened stride / stiff / odd gait, stomping his feet, swishing his tail, rubbing himself in the stable, reluctance to stand after lying down (which he does a lot!) and the need for a good stretch (like dogs do) on getting up. he has also had one full blown bout of collic and in hindsight I would say he has looked mildly collicy before (although eating drinking and pooing fine). he has also been quite crabby on occasion and despite obviously wanting to come in / go out or whatever, has been very unco-operative. oh, and he likes to buck quite a lot! All this baring in mind he is only 3.5, I had thought some things were down to his feet and or his greenness but maybe not...
 
claireandnadia said:
Looks like a tidy trim. I still would only use a farrier though. Someone on my yard has just started using a barefoot trimmer and she said that she was very impressed as they discussed the diet and all sorts before she even started on the trim.
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See...my farrier (AWCF) does all this....we talk diet, excercise- he body scores, checks pulses and has taught me to do the same...he encouraged me to take the shoes off my horses. All of this means much less money in his pocket and he's not at my yard for any significantly less time either, although granted he doesn't have the 'materials' overhead...

I think he's pretty unique.
 
Well leaving aside the old and rather tired and shabby arguments about trimmers and farriers which always seem to mar any discussion.....

Trim looks neat and sympathetic - there are a number if interesting aspects to the feet there, and some interesting asymetry. It will be interesting for you to see how the shape of his feet change and develop over time.

There is a growing trend in the trimming community to do less rather than more. The aim in the end of the day is to have your horse reach the ideal of self trimming so there is nothing to be done. Diet and appropriate work are the way to do that.

In the end of the day the real judge of the effectiveness of the trim is not you or me, or anyone else - it's the horse.
 
CBFan said:
Cptrayes, I'm glad you posted! I know you mentioned the predisposition to epsm before and although I hadn't forgotten about it completely I had put it to the back of my mind. I have to say that having looked into it some more it does look quite possible that my boy has it. He does show quite a lot of the symptoms including: stiffness after long periods in his (rather large) stable and reluctance to walk on, reluctance to go forward in work (to the point where we haven't done much cantering at all (I could probably count on one hand the number of times he has cantered for me on the lunge never mind under saddle), shortened stride / stiff / odd gait, stomping his feet, swishing his tail, rubbing himself in the stable, reluctance to stand after lying down (which he does a lot!) and the need for a good stretch (like dogs do) on getting up. he has also had one full blown bout of collic and in hindsight I would say he has looked mildly collicy before (although eating drinking and pooing fine). he has also been quite crabby on occasion and despite obviously wanting to come in / go out or whatever, has been very unco-operative. oh, and he likes to buck quite a lot! All this baring in mind he is only 3.5, I had thought some things were down to his feet and or his greenness but maybe not...
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You wouldn't belive it, but that paragrah could describe our CBxtb 110%! Think I posted on one of your prev posts when Cptrayes posted about EPSM, and from her description I could see alot of simalarities to our mare. We decided we needed to take a much closer look at their feed and have had their grazing analysed and (because I just don't know anywhere near enough!) had a feeding plan worked out so we can ensure they are getting the minerals they need. Turns out the grazing is utterly rubbish, so although we were supplementing a bit, wasn't enough at all and we were missing some vital parts! There has been a big diff in her confidence in her feet on gravely ground, less stiffness, she doesn't suffer from being ravenously hungry and grouchy and even (gasp!) the start of some concavity! Perhaps something worth looking into? Just facinating!
 
CBFan said:
Cptrayes, I'm glad you posted! I know you mentioned the predisposition to epsm before and although I hadn't forgotten about it completely I had put it to the back of my mind. I have to say that having looked into it some more it does look quite possible that my boy has it. He does show quite a lot of the symptoms including: stiffness after long periods in his (rather large) stable and reluctance to walk on, reluctance to go forward in work (to the point where we haven't done much cantering at all (I could probably count on one hand the number of times he has cantered for me on the lunge never mind under saddle), shortened stride / stiff / odd gait, stomping his feet, swishing his tail, rubbing himself in the stable, reluctance to stand after lying down (which he does a lot!) and the need for a good stretch (like dogs do) on getting up. he has also had one full blown bout of collic and in hindsight I would say he has looked mildly collicy before (although eating drinking and pooing fine). he has also been quite crabby on occasion and despite obviously wanting to come in / go out or whatever, has been very unco-operative. oh, and he likes to buck quite a lot! All this baring in mind he is only 3.5, I had thought some things were down to his feet and or his greenness but maybe not...
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This sounds exactly like an EPSM horse belonging to an acquaintance of mine. Is he worse in cold & wet weather? It's as well to find out whether he has it or not or at least feed him as though he has because it can cause serious and permanent muscle damage - the horse I mentioned is now retired for this reason. :(
 
ThePony said:
You wouldn't belive it, but that paragrah could describe our CBxtb 110%! Think I posted on one of your prev posts when Cptrayes posted about EPSM, and from her description I could see alot of simalarities to our mare. We decided we needed to take a much closer look at their feed and have had their grazing analysed and (because I just don't know anywhere near enough!) had a feeding plan worked out so we can ensure they are getting the minerals they need. Turns out the grazing is utterly rubbish, so although we were supplementing a bit, wasn't enough at all and we were missing some vital parts! There has been a big diff in her confidence in her feet on gravely ground, less stiffness, she doesn't suffer from being ravenously hungry and grouchy and even (gasp!) the start of some concavity! Perhaps something worth looking into? Just facinating!
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I think I will look into it some more Thanks.

when you say your grazing is rubbish, in what way? pm me if it's too lengthly to post here - I'd be interested to know. who analysed your grazing for you and came up with the feeding plan? is it just a case of sending a small sample of grass / hay off for analysis?

I think it's easier to control these things if you have your own land etc but when you're at the mercy of the land owner throwing his nice nitrogen rich fertiliser on the field once a year (thankfully not this year) and not much else it is a lot more tricky.

The more I Think about it, I had stopped giving my boy any oil for a few weeks a little while ago and he was less forward than ever... I have since re-introduced it (though only i'd say half a cup a day) and his demeanour is better although I haven't been able to test his 'performance' as he's been injured!
 
CBFan said:
The more I Think about it, I had stopped giving my boy any oil for a few weeks a little while ago and he was less forward than ever... I have since re-introduced it (though only i'd say half a cup a day) and his demeanour is better although I haven't been able to test his 'performance' as he's been injured!
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EPSM diet is very simple and works well for many - restrict grazing if you need to, but try not to restrict movement more than necessary (eg a muzzle is better than stabling). High fibre and low sugar feed - check bag labels for molasses, wheat syrup and corn syrup. 500 ml of oil a day and 12000-30000iu of vitamin E (cheapest bought as human gel capsules from an online supplier and cut open and squeezed into feed).

The behaviour fluctuations in an EPSM horse are really biizarre. I have seen one be as good as gold one day and buck like stink the next. I have seen one panic because it rained on his stable roof, and know of another who threw a paddy because the farmer was cutting a field next door to his stable. This latter one I owned and as soon as I got his diet right, he stopped panicking about anything at all and we had a 20 ton truck drive so close to his stable that the driver had to pull in the wing mirrors and he did not bat an eyelid!

Your symptoms sound VERY suspicious, I'm glad I could help.
 
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