Before you buy! A Welfare solution.

[_GG_]

I didn't sleep a wink last night. I lay awake thinking about the content of the threads currently running and as I said in my very first post in the first thread, it comes down to education.
I've had ideas, which I have vocalised with the caveat that they need a great amount of research and thought, but last night, no matter what angle I viewed each of those from, they all came back to the same points. They would either punish responsible owners, remove freedom of choice or even in some cases, impinge on human rights. All of these would create a backlash that could permanently damage any kind of organisation set up to help the horses.

So, I have come to the conclusion this morning that there are actually only two things that I feel I could support.

1/ An educational campaign. A far reaching educational programme, run by a group of volunteers with professional backing that worked in the community to create a greater knowledge of the reality of keeping animals and what happens to them when we can no longer keep them or no homes can be found for them. Particularly targeting children of an appropriate age. Change the attitude of a generation and it will help prevent the issue in the future.
An educational campaign that was far reaching enough and in detail enough to make clear the implications of buying low value horses in terms of cost and also in terms of the knock on impact of the continued indiscriminate breeding and it's propensity for poor welfare.
An educational campaign that asks the difficult questions and gives the honest answers. No political agenda, no lobbying, no lecturing. Just the facts, laid bare from which people can draw their own conclusions. It won't change the mindset of all, but it would have a chance at changing the attitudes of enough people to create a shift in the public perception and hopefully remind those that buy low value horses that it is better for the horses to look at the bigger picture, not just at the horse that they are buying. People already know what goes on, they just choose to turn a blind eye, so it has to be aimed at the conscience, to encourage people not to be condemn the trade, not support it.

2/ Supporting an expansion of the horse meat trade in this country. Promoting it as a valuable commodity for the pet food or human food markets to create a bottom line value so that horses are worth more for that than being sold for £15 at the sales. I see this as viable because it would price some of the do gooder rescuers out of the market for them. It would need to be supported by point 1. The general public would need to be educated about the realities of the alternatives. They would need to be educated on how supporting this move would increase the standard of care for the low value horses in the country. It would in turn bring in better control over the handling and kill standards which will always be in the interest of the horse.

This is a simplistic summary, but these are my thoughts. It seems that there are a lot of people that would support trying to reduce the welfare crisis, but it's very hard to get behind something that could have knock on implications. I don't think we can control how many horses people breed. No matter how it was set up and regulated, it could never be effectively policed and could send the market underground which will not help anyone give assistance to the horses that need it.
I like the idea of only being able to breed if you make a donation to welfare as Wagtail mentions in the other thread, but again it comes down to regulation, policing and the people that comply are not the people that are causing the issue. Those that breed low value in large numbers would find a way around it. So, as much as I personally like that idea, I think it could make things more difficult for responsible breeders whilst not actually having that much impact on the real foundation of the issue.


I'd welcome your thoughts on this. Neither would require setting up a charity. Both would simply require research, time, effort and effective marketing. I have the contacts, I can get articles in papers and magazines. I can get on major radio stations and possibly tv, but I can't do it alone and I don't have the time to squeeze a couple of years worth of research into it.

So...if anyone agrees with the above 2 ideas and wishes to help me, please take some time, at your leisure and write down what you think needs to be said. Details of any research you have done and points that you feel need to be raised/made in order to help educate the general public and all horse owners/potential horse owners in order that they can make more informed decisions.

I don't believe anyone has the right to tell others what they can and can't afford, or what they should or shouldn't do...so I think it has to come down to making clear and concise information available so that the decisions people make can be informed ones.

I can work to get the backing of the major charities as they all do already support PTS as an option...so much so, they are advising it to pretty much anyone who calls them trying to re-home a horse. They are bound by the laws of charitable organisations in that they cannot themselves lobby or have political motivation (please don't turn this into an RSPCA thread). They want to support education like this and I can gain that support publicly, but I need help in formulating the right messages.

So, if you really would like to help, please PM me, I will give you my email address and you can then email me at your leisure with your thoughts and ideas. I would also welcome any help in actually going forward with this.

We can't change legislation and even if we could, I don't think it would help much. We can't expect current laws to be upheld better than they are now because it is a totally unrealistic proposition in terms of funds and time.

I would support a charity that offered subsidised euthanasia, but I will leave that to Fides if she wants to go ahead and I will support as much as I can, but I would rather concentrate on the roots of the issue and as there is very little we can physically/legally do to stop it, all we are left with is education to change attitudes and the creation of a more valuable market for the horses.

I don't want emotion...I want facts, figures and real experience.

Thank you.

Cheryl xxx

 

[pennyturner]

I fully support this. It's the right approach.
Natives vs TB's, Travellers vs gentry. We all face the same problems when it comes to horse welfare, and need education and service provision, not regulation.

 

[Captain Bridget]

I think an important part is looking at why the British public are so against eating horse meant? The French seem to have no issues with it. And if the horse meat was actually worth buying/selling you will automatically increase the value of these horses. They wouldn't need to be transported abroad for slaughter. Increased value = increased welfare.

A TV programme introducing horse meat to the public, one of the channel 4 type documentaries, might be of interest, however the likelihood of being able to get hold of horse meat for this purpose might be difficult. Getting Tesco to sell horse meat? Highly unlikely I understand but would we be less against it if we tried it?

Although if you were selling for meat they would need to be under the same regulations as farm animals being sold for meat and horses currently aren't seen as livestock.

 

[*hic*]

When it comes to education I fear that more than one generation needs to be educated: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-dead-Parents-fail-minute-stay-execution.html One also only has to look on here at the attitudes of some when the subject of dead horses comes up, whether for meat or not.

As for expanding the horsemeat trade, I've long suggested that those poor weanlings shipped for days across the channel and Europe would be better going to, say, those horselovers who keep a few meat animals, to be kept in a similar fashion and run on for a year or two. For example I, and I know of a good few others like me, keep a few sheep or pigs which are slaughtered onsite to provide meat for our own consumption, we could easily cope with a youngster or two. The phrase "I can only hope you are joking" has been used to me on here about that. Actually I'm not. I feel it would be far kinder to the youngsters to have time out in a herd and then a swift peaceful respectful end.

 

[pennyturner]

Time and again, it has been shown that people would buy properly packaged horse meat if it is cheaper and better than equivalent beef. People shop with their pockets, not their hearts.

 

[_GG_]

I think an important part is looking at why the British public are so against eating horse meant? The French seem to have no issues with it. And if the horse meat was actually worth buying/selling you will automatically increase the value of these horses. They wouldn't need to be transported abroad for slaughter. Increased value = increased welfare.

A TV programme introducing horse meat to the public, one of the channel 4 type documentaries, might be of interest, however the likelihood of being able to get hold of horse meat for this purpose might be difficult. Getting Tesco to sell horse meat? Highly unlikely I understand but would we be less against it if we tried it?

Although if you were selling for meat they would need to be under the same regulations as farm animals being sold for meat and horses currently aren't seen as livestock.

Agreed, hence the double layered approach. The educational campaign would have to include the benefits of horse meat as both a human food and a pet food ingredient. The way to gather support for this is to identify and educate the public on what the alternatives are for the horses. For those that don't eat meat at all, it is a welfare concern. For those that do eat meat, but don't support eating horse meat, it is a case of highlighting the positives and altering the perception of it. Something I would involve industry experts on.

Thank you both.

 

[_GG_]

When it comes to education I fear that more than one generation needs to be educated: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-dead-Parents-fail-minute-stay-execution.html One also only has to look on here at the attitudes of some when the subject of dead horses comes up, whether for meat or not.

As for expanding the horsemeat trade, I've long suggested that those poor weanlings shipped for days across the channel and Europe would be better going to, say, those horselovers who keep a few meat animals, to be kept in a similar fashion and run on for a year or two. For example I, and I know of a good few others like me, keep a few sheep or pigs which are slaughtered onsite to provide meat for our own consumption, we could easily cope with a youngster or two. The phrase "I can only hope you are joking" has been used to me on here about that. Actually I'm not. I feel it would be far kinder to the youngsters to have time out in a herd and then a swift peaceful respectful end.

I may not have made that clear in the OP. The first part was about educating the next generation, the rest was aimed at educating those who would be going to buy the low value horses and those who support that and condemn PTS as a welfare option. It would be an all encapsulating approach, but with different tools and approaches for different groups. Child education would need input from appropriate childcare/education/psychology experts to ensure age appropriate content. For adults, it can be a little different, but I do not support shock factors. I do not support horrible images used to further a cause. I would use facts, evidenced examples and high profile statements and backing. Totally understand and agree with your points.

Time and again, it has been shown that people would buy properly packaged horse meat if it is cheaper and better than equivalent beef. People shop with their pockets, not their hearts.

Yep...it's not necessarily the end buyers that need convincing...but the retailers and producers. In order to do that, there is a need to create demand, so I feel that educating the end buyer (the public) to create an increased demand will actually help support the retailers desire to stock their shelves. They in turn would take care of the legislation. They are in interested in profit are well versed in applying pressure to have regulations changed.

 

[Casey76]

I think an important part is looking at why the British public are so against eating horse meant? The French seem to have no issues with it.

I'd really like to know where all of these horse eating French people are... Yes, you can buy horse meat in the supermarket; it occupies about 2sq feet of shelf space, it is always vacuum packed and it nearly alwyas comes from Uruguay or Paraguay.

The only place I've ever seen French horse meat on the market is Switzerland.

Maybe nearly all French petfood is horse meat, because all of the masses (apparently) of horses sent for "meat" in France don't end up in the human food chain.

(now I'll read the rest of the thread )

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

I am sure there was a poll done when the horse meat scandal came about, and it came out that it wasn't the fact it was horse per se, just that it was horse being sold as beef.

It needs well known chefs to use it, and endorse it. This will then filter down to Joe Bloggs as being socially acceptable.

However.

It would need to be heavily regulated, and I don't have the confidence that the government has the inclination, or frankly the skill currently, to manage this. Yes, it will sort the issue out short term, but longer term will it just move the problem sideways and the welfare issue will still be there with UK horses, and we will potentially find imported horse meat filling the tables instead.

Education is great, but greed will always come before learning - and I would hazard a guess that the people that breed horses like rabbits are not interested in learning, period. The fact they still breed shows they aren't learning as their stock isn't selling, yet still breed 'one last one'. Bit like an addicted gambler.

 

[_GG_]

I am sure there was a poll done when the horse meat scandal came about, and it came out that it wasn't the fact it was horse per se, just that it was horse being sold as beef.

It needs well known chefs to use it, and endorse it. This will then filter down to Joe Bloggs as being socially acceptable.

However.

It would need to be heavily regulated, and I don't have the confidence that the government has the inclination, or frankly the skill currently, to manage this. Yes, it will sort the issue out short term, but longer term will it just move the problem sideways and the welfare issue will still be there with UK horses, and we will potentially find imported horse meat filling the tables instead.

Education is great, but greed will always come before learning - and I would hazard a guess that the people that breed horses like rabbits are not interested in learning, period. The fact they still breed shows they aren't learning as their stock isn't selling, yet still breed 'one last one'. Bit like an addicted gambler.

It isn't about educating the breeders, it's about educating the people that currently line the pockets of the breeders. Breeders will breed and changing regulations around that is too big of a can of worms to even think about opening, let alone actually doing successfully.

As for horsemeat being a viable commercial option, I see no evidence to support this only being a short term solution. We have no huge bovine welfare issues...because it is a regulated industry. I do see it as a viable long term option. Solution is a complex thing, hence needing to coincide with education, but as an option, I do see it as being a viable one.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

quick question-how are you going to reach the ones who need reaching? ie how are you going to get these adults (ie he rescuers), who think they know best, to come to your demos/lectures or read your literature?

Honestly not trying to be a downer, I think its a good idea. But you will have to convince people, 'horse' people no less, that they might be wrong..

also, why can't they be used for pet food if a human market not be a goer? Would that need a more guaranteed supply?

 

[Captain Bridget]

I'd really like to know where all of these horse eating French people are... Yes, you can buy horse meat in the supermarket; it occupies about 2sq feet of shelf space, it is always vacuum packed and it nearly alwyas comes from Uruguay or Paraguay.

The only place I've ever seen French horse meat on the market is Switzerland.

Maybe nearly all French petfood is horse meat, because all of the masses (apparently) of horses sent for "meat" in France don't end up in the human food chain.

(now I'll read the rest of the thread )

I have been going to France nearly every year since I was born and many times I've seen horse meat for sale at local markets and in butchers. Apologies if this is not the same everywhere. I'm just going off what I know. I didn't mean to generalise. But it is more acceptable in France?

 

[touchstone]

I'm not sure that having a healthy horse meat trade would make much difference; you face the risk of even more horses being bred if their value increases because Joe Bloggs wants to make a quick buck. I think we are partly in the situation we are because horses were worth more and overbred, leading to the glut of poor quality stock we see now. It also wouldn't make a bit of difference to certain communities that don't bother with passports and breed indiscriminately, they will carry on just as they are - a colt foal without the paperwork to go for meat will end up dumped or neglected the same as they are now.

 

[unicornystar]

It all makes sense and a fantastic idea. My question is, how do you change "mentality".....rather than education? - how do we change the mentality of people that would rather keep something alive than PTS (for all the wrong reasons....) such an emotive subject...

 

[_GG_]

quick question-how are you going to reach the ones who need reaching? ie how are you going to get these adults (ie he rescuers), who think they know best, to come to your demos/lectures or read your literature?

Honestly not trying to be a downer, I think its a good idea. But you will have to convince people, 'horse' people no less, that they might be wrong..

Not a downer, a valid point and I would do it through the media. I have the contacts and you are absolutely right about convincing "horse" people that they are wrong. Some will listen, many will not. However, it is the perception of the general public, largely, the non horsey public that can be harnessed to help the cause. At the moment, Joe Bloggs "rescuing" a pony from the meat man is seen as a saviour. With that perception changed, so does the general attitude towards those Joe Bloggs'.


also, why can't they be used for pet food if a human market not be a goer? Would that need a more guaranteed supply?

I don't think I've said anywhere that they can't be used for the pet food trade, in fact I think I have mentioned that in my OP as not all of the meat would be fit for human consumption anyway. If it needed a more guaranteed supply, it would only be in line with demand, so would not create a further welfare issue.

I'm not sure that having a healthy horse meat trade would make much difference; you face the risk of even more horses being bred if their value increases because Joe Bloggs wants to make a quick buck. I think we are partly in the situation we are because horses were worth more and overbred, leading to the glut of poor quality stock we see now. It also wouldn't make a bit of difference to certain communities that don't bother with passports and breed indiscriminately, they will carry on just as they are - a colt foal without the paperwork to go for meat will end up dumped or neglected the same as they are now.

Joe Bloggs breeding without a passport would not be able to sell into the horsemeat (human) trade anyway. He would have to meet the regulations for doing so. The Joe Blogg's breeders would be tackled through the education of the people who buy low value horses from him.

You'll never stop that trade, but even if it can be reduced by a fraction, it is better than nothing.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I don't think I've said anywhere that they can't be used for the pet food trade, in fact I think I have mentioned that in my OP as not all of the meat would be fit for human consumption anyway. If it needed a more guaranteed supply, it would only be in line with demand, so would not create a further welfare issue.

no, I know you didnt-it was more of a general question as I hadn't seen it mentioned much previously. I just don't know much about what does go into dog/cat food and any regulations etc.

 

[_GG_]

It all makes sense and a fantastic idea. My question is, how do you change "mentality".....rather than education? - how do we change the mentality of people that would rather keep something alive than PTS (for all the wrong reasons....) such an emotive subject...

Yes it is...and it's what the education would need to be aimed at in part. You'll never be able to change the mentality of everyone, there will always be opposition, but if you can change the mentality of a few, that is better than none.

It is a very emotive subject, but you only have to look through some of the many threads on this very forum to see that the laying bare of facts and realities can help to change mentality. I have seen people on this forum change from being totally anti PTS to actively supporting it when they have realised what the realistic alternatives for the horses are.

People don't know because they don't want to know and can avoid the issue. So what I want to do is put the issue in front of them and let them decide for themselves. If they continue to believe that a horse suffering is better than a horse meeting a premature but humane end then so be it, we can't force it on anyone. We can just get the information out there and hope that some will listen.

 

[Casey76]

TBH I'm not sure if raising the profile of horse meat in the UK would do much to alleviate the issues.

The horses raised purely for meat in France (and there are a couple of farms close by me) are all of a certain type. Just like beef cattle, horses bred for meat are selected for certain characteristics, and horses like the Comtoise and Mérens (which are traditional meat horses) all have huge haunches etc. There isn't much meat on a skinny TB (comparatively speaking).

My personal opinion is that the rise of social media isn't helping things. These huge herds of horses have always existed, except in the past unwanted colts have probably quickly and quietly been dispatched not long after birth, and only the more promising ones being run on. Now everyone is seen as a potential money maker, no matter how little. Advertised with blatant threats "These colts will be sent to slaughter in x days if no homes are found for them" to tug on the heart strings of soft hearted women and hormonally imbalanced teenage girls (who are easier marks than more logically thinking men) (and yes that is a sweeping generalisation, of course you will also get some sensible and clear headed ladies and men who make an informed decision to take on one of these animals)

What we (in general, I'm in France so can't really affect anything in the UK) do need is some kind of educational force to stop people (joe public) thinking that horse slaughter is an evil abhorent act; to have more abbatoirs licensed to dispatch horses (to prevent live export); but most of all an educational force to reduce/prevent indiscriminate breeding.

 

[Casey76]

I have been going to France nearly every year since I was born and many times I've seen horse meat for sale at local markets and in butchers. Apologies if this is not the same everywhere. I'm just going off what I know. I didn't mean to generalise. But it is more acceptable in France?

Perhaps the rest of France are avid horse meat eaters??? It's a big country! I just know, from my (albeit limited) experience of living in Alsace and over the border in Switzerland, although it is available, it isn't very prevalent.

 

[Holly Hocks]

I love the ideas above - but most people on here are already of the same opinion - however whether you will reach the ones who need to be reached is a different matter. The ones you do reach will be the ones who are willing to listen and already be aware of the crisis. I don't think you can change the mind-set of those intent on "rescuing" these bad horses and ponies and indiscriminate breeding will just continue out of sight, which could make the situation even worse.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Unless there's a market for worm ridden, neglected horses denied pain relief, there won't be cheap horse meat. It's a falacy. Rearing and farming any livestock costs money. Where would the market for horse meat come from if it cost the same as beef or lamb ? We do not have a shortage of meat here in the UK. Horse isn't widely eaten in France, I've yet to see it on a menu on my many trips over there. That's not to say, it isn't available for jaded palates, but it's not that popular these days.

People seem to make these sweeping statements about eating horsemeat which traditionally was used as a food for the poor in times of economic necessity. It's generally been a taboo for centuries in many cultures and it seems strange that in these modern times when the supermarkets are stuffed full of food from all over the world, we talk about creating a market to make irresponsible, antisocial people richer.

 

[Embo]

Brilliant ideas, and I agree totally. However...

I would be concerned about a change in public perception to horses in general. Joe Public won't necessarily understand the difference between a 'meat horse' and a well-bred riding horse, so I would be worried about attitudes changing for the worse towards all horses.

Pure speculation on my part of course, but it is the first thing that popped into my head that hadn't been mentioned already.

 

[touchstone]

I don't think I've said anywhere that they can't be used for the pet food trade, in fact I think I have mentioned that in my OP as not all of the meat would be fit for human consumption anyway. If it needed a more guaranteed supply, it would only be in line with demand, so would not create a further welfare issue.



Joe Bloggs breeding without a passport would not be able to sell into the horsemeat (human) trade anyway. He would have to meet the regulations for doing so. The Joe Blogg's breeders would be tackled through the education of the people who buy low value horses from him.

You'll never stop that trade, but even if it can be reduced by a fraction, it is better than nothing.

Yes, that is the point I was trying to make GG, they won't bother with regulations and carry on as they are, piling more unwanted animals into the system, possibly compounded by the fact that more people will try to 'rescue' the poor horses from the meat man.

 

[Alec Swan]

Interesting points, all of them. My own view is that however commendable the idea may be behind education, the problem is, and will always be, that if 50% of the horse breeding public take your thoughts on board, then the vacuum will be filled by the remaining 50% doubling production. That's human nature, I'm sorry to say.

Legislation doesn't stand a hope in hell, as the nation can't afford to pay for the staff to police the situation. We have serious funding problems with our Health and our Education systems. Horses? They wont be far up the priorities list of many, I'm afraid to say, and quite rightly so, when there are avenues of relief open.

It seems to me that the only realistic way forward is to offer a humane end by commercialising an ethical slaughter scheme. It should at this point be born in mind that just as the British Wet Fish trade is in decline, so is the Continental market for horse meat. If there's any value, then it's for the feeding of carnivores, our dogs, cats and zoo inmates, and that in itself is a colossal business. As an aside, the canine population in this country would see a huge improvement in their health status were flesh again available.

Horses cannot be reared, in this country, and from a truly commercial standpoint, with meat and hides being the end result. There's simply no money in it. Keeping a horse for, say 3 years, to be paid £300 simply isn't viable. The day will never arrive when horses are purpose bred, for meat. The only possible way forward is for the owner of the horse to be paid £300, and bear in mind that he/she may well have paid considerable more. Instead of a £200+ disposal cost, the owner will be up £300. Well that's tough, at least there is some salve in a way out, rather than the wretched creature being abandoned. Most cobs would have a perceived value of about £500 with the risk of deficit being added to the slaughter value.

Given that there would be abattoirs available, they would need to be localised. Currently there are two which are operational in the UK, with perhaps a further dozen or so moth-balled, and though still capable of being licensed, are sitting unused.

Before we as a Nation rose up and proudly championed the cause that all horses had to live forever, and that only at the last moments could an animal be sent to heaven, and before we had the lunacy of Clause IX on the passports, horses were bought and sold for meat. When the charities et al decided that Horse Abattoirs were a dirty concept, and that the only real way that they could expand and swell their coffers (How much are Redwings worth £13 MILLION?), would be to start up lots of lovely Rescue Centres. Excellent, but then they being unable to see further than the ends of their noses, discovered that as they'd put a stop to an entirely effective disposal system, there was and remains, a colossal backlog, and it's still growing.

This brings us on to the biggest obstacle. Led by both the BHS and WHW, with minor satellites like the rspca in support, none of them will assist in a campaign to relax the slaughter and export of horse meat, as their funding will collapse, over night. It quite simply suits the charities very well to have such a situation and in fact, it's the charities which have promoted and fostered our current predicament.

Before any progress can be made there has to be Government support for any ethical disposal scheme. There will be no effort made by Government, without considerable pressure from the welfare charities, and THERE young Cheryl, lies your problem. The current situation is largely the making of the charities, and they have no intention of severing the carotid of their funding streams!!

Just as an aside, I know of a fairly modern abattoir which has been moth-balled. For about £40-60k it could be elevated to being a suitable venue. I had a chum on board to join with me and apply for a change of use. An entirely ethical and humane system would have been installed, with properly trained and monitored staff. I spoke with senior officials from 2 equine charities, and the response from the first was "Have you taken leave of your senses? Were we to support such a business, it would be suicidal!! I hope that you are more successful than I.

My dear Cheryl, the simple fact is that however I would applaud your efforts, failure is virtually a certainty. I will however support you should you feel that I can be of any help.

Alec.

 

[_GG_]

There is a lot of mention of horse meat on the shelves and yes, that is a part of a possible solution, but it is not what the whole option of a solution is about. There is a very big horsemeat trade in this country already. But it is frowned upon by the general public.

At sales up and down the country, the horses and ponies that are at the centre of the welfare issue are bought up by the meat man. People use this as a tactic to sell to the public. As mentioned above, it is a threat used to create emotion and make sales. This is where the education comes in. Educating people to help change the opinions of those who believe the meat man is the worst fate to befall a horse. Not everyone will want to listen and it will not eradicate the issue, but it does have a chance at reducing it, so I think it's worth it.

Social media has a lot to do with the perception of the current situation, but it can also play a big role in countering that if done properly.

Creating a meat market for horses would not make irresponsible, antisocial people richer because those people would not be able to conform to the standards, so they wouldn't be selling into the meat trade for human consumption. They make their money off the people who pity buy and they would be tackled with the education.

Let me be clear, I am under no illusions here. There are big gaps in this and it will never make an enormous change, but it does have the chance to make some changes and any change is better than none. Social perception is a very powerful thing and pity buyers stop being applauded for what they are doing, many will stop doing it. Not all, but many will.

The thing with promoting the meat trade is that it would be a supply and demand market, so would only create the necessary amount of trade. It's not the big picture here. The big picture is the education.

Thanks for every reply by the way...it all helps.

 

[_GG_]

Yes, that is the point I was trying to make GG, they won't bother with regulations and carry on as they are, piling more unwanted animals into the system, possibly compounded by the fact that more people will try to 'rescue' the poor horses from the meat man.

But if education can cut the number of people pity buying these horses and they can't sell them into a regulated trade, they will not spend effort breeding more. Of course it's not going to stop all pity buying, but it might stop some.

Interesting points, all of them. My own view is that however commendable the idea may be behind education, the problem is, and will always be, that if 50% of the horse breeding public take your thoughts on board, then the vacuum will be filled by the remaining 50% doubling production. That's human nature, I'm sorry to say.

Legislation doesn't stand a hope in hell, as the nation can't afford to pay for the staff to police the situation. We have serious funding problems with our Health and our Education systems. Horses? They wont be far up the priorities list of many, I'm afraid to say, and quite rightly so, when there are avenues of relief open.

It seems to me that the only realistic way forward is to offer a humane end by commercialising an ethical slaughter scheme. It should at this point be born in mind that just as the British Wet Fish trade is in decline, so is the Continental market for horse meat. If there's any value, then it's for the feeding of carnivores, our dogs, cats and zoo inmates, and that in itself is a colossal business. As an aside, the canine population in this country would see a huge improvement in their health status were flesh again available.

Horses cannot be reared, in this country, and from a truly commercial standpoint, with meat and hides being the end result. There's simply no money in it. Keeping a horse for, say 3 years, to be paid £300 simply isn't viable. The day will never arrive when horses are purpose bred, for meat. The only possible way forward is for the owner of the horse to be paid £300, and bear in mind that he/she may well have paid considerable more. Instead of a £200+ disposal cost, the owner will be up £300. Well that's tough, at least there is some salve in a way out, rather than the wretched creature being abandoned. Most cobs would have a perceived value of about £500 with the risk of deficit being added to the slaughter value.

Given that there would be abattoirs available, they would need to be localised. Currently there are two which are operational in the UK, with perhaps a further dozen or so moth-balled, and though still capable of being licensed, are sitting unused.

Before we as a Nation rose up and proudly championed the cause that all horses had to live forever, and that only at the last moments could an animal be sent to heaven, and before we had the lunacy of Clause IX on the passports, horses were bought and sold for meat. When the charities et al decided that Horse Abattoirs were a dirty concept, and that the only real way that they could expand and swell their coffers (How much are Redwings worth £13 MILLION?), would be to start up lots of lovely Rescue Centres. Excellent, but then they being unable to see further than the ends of their noses, discovered that as they'd put a stop to an entirely effective disposal system, there was and remains, a colossal backlog, and it's still growing.

This brings us on to the biggest obstacle. Led by both the BHS and WHW, with minor satellites like the rspca in support, none of them will assist in a campaign to relax the slaughter and export of horse meat, as their funding will collapse, over night. It quite simply suits the charities very well to have such a situation and in fact, it's the charities which have promoted and fostered our current predicament.

Before any progress can be made there has to be Government support for any ethical disposal scheme. There will be no effort made by Government, without considerable pressure from the welfare charities, and THERE young Cheryl, lies your problem. The current situation is largely the making of the charities, and they have no intention of severing the carotid of their funding streams!!

Just as an aside, I know of a fairly modern abattoir which has been moth-balled. For about £40-60k it could be elevated to being a suitable venue. I had a chum on board to join with me and apply for a change of use. An entirely ethical and humane system would have been installed, with properly trained and monitored staff. I spoke with senior officials from 2 equine charities, and the response from the first was "Have you taken leave of your senses? Were we to support such a business, it would be suicidal!! I hope that you are more successful than I.

My dear Cheryl, the simple fact is that however I would applaud your efforts, failure is virtually a certainty. I will however support you should you feel that I can be of any help.

Alec.

Alec, I understand some of your points (I may be young if you call 35 young, but I have the business age of a 60 yr old and my eyes have seen far more than a lot of people my age), I know you're just being you, but it does sound a little patronising. The thing is, it's not all going to be solved by subsidised euthanasia either.

Of course failure is a certainty if you go into something thinking you can change things overnight or make any huge impact. That is not what this is about. It is about not doing nothing. Having a little success with something is better than having no success with nothing.

Setting about creating subsidised euthanasia is an incredibly fraught and complicated thing that would take a very long time and risk supporting some of the people at the heart of the issue. It needs to be looked at very very carefully.

As I've said, horse meat for human consumption is a very small part of the meat possibilities. The influential part is that of, as you say, the pet food market. This is where a difference can be made but in order for it to be accepted, education of the facts is key.

To address the first part of your post...it's not that black and white. If 50% of the horse breeding market takes it on board, the remaining 50% can only fill the void if there is a void there to be filled. That's why what I propose would not be aimed at the breeders, it would be aimed at the buyers and those who support the buyers. Reduce that market and breeders will lose demand, therefore breed less.

I'll say again...it's not going to make any huge, drastic difference in any hurry, but it can make small changes and small changes in attitude and those are the foundations on which larger changes can be built on.

I'd rather do something that helps a few than do nothing and help none.

 

[touchstone]

But if education can cut the number of people pity buying these is about. It is about not doing nothing. Having a little success with something is better than having no success with nothing.

I agree that it's good to try to do something, but the costs v's practicalities and effectiveness have to be considered.

In my experience it isn't the odd pity buyer who causes the worst of the issues, it's the sorts who have literally dozens, (if not hundreds I've heard of in one instance) of horses that are bred every year and carted off to Appleby. I live in the North East, which unfortunately is particularly bad for this, horses change hands constantly and there are numerous fields crammed with coloured cobs, there are nearly always horses abandoned. The welfare organisations do try with free castration and vaccination clinics and education, but I think a vast amount of it falls on deaf ears. There are plenty of teenage lads who count how many horses they have as a status symbol, I can't see it changing anytime soon.

I am sorry to sound so negative, I just think that there are so many different issues where horse welfare is concerned that it will be a mammoth and expensive task to make any worthwhile difference, that of course doesn't mean that we shouldn't try, but we need to do it in the best way possible.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Ethical horse meat production isn't viable and never has been. Cattle are cheaper to feed and quicker to grow. As the only way of getting horse meat, is as a by product from the neglectful owners, I don't see where the market for it will come from. Traditionally, Catholics, Jews and Muslims do not eat horse, which takes away a hefty chunk of potential consumers.


That leaves the pet owners. Hmmm. Once Utube starts downloading images of the poor wretches prior to slaughter (no, they aren't grazed in green meadows while waiting for Fridays), I think a fair proportion of pet owners will revert back to feeding chicken, as horses are viewed as pets in the UK by leisure owners and the public.

So apart from Princess Anne and the bored diners at Gordon Ramsey's cafe, and that's if Claridges don't mind more manure being tipped on their door step-, where's the market for this no-so-cheap horse meat ?

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

One thing I have just thought of, back in the late 60's & early 70's horse crime locally was quite prolific. Numbers going on loan or being taken, never to be seen again.
There were also quite a number of smaller slaughter houses, abbatoirs, call them what you like - but paperwork was thin on the ground. Publicity was usually only in local papers, we didn't have the likes of internet etc then.

Obviously nobody wants to see this happening ever again, so a very robust scheme needs to be applied, chips, passports etc would all HAVE to feature........

 

[Fides]

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