Before you buy! A Welfare solution.

[Alec Swan]

_GG_, I'm sorry if you thought me being patronising, that wasn't my intention, and as my daughter is 3 years older than you, 'young' was offered as an endearment. I suspect that you're going to like this even less; This is the third thread in as many days, on the very same subject, two of which you've started. There'll be no continuity of argument or discussion, when things are so fragmented. There are many valid points, exceptional in some cases, being made on a thread which runs parallel with this, and it may be beneficial to your valuable attempts, were there a common conversation.

This very subject has been discussed, ad-naseum and previously, but still there is never any resolve. The main reason for the apparent lethargy are those active and fund raising charities who have a vested interest in the suffering of animals. To affect any major change, there needs to be Government support and it would be highly unlikely that anyone will achieve that without the support of the major, and currently at fault, charities.

None-the-less, your efforts are laudable, and again, if I can be of any help, then you have but to ask.

Alec.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

It isn't the coloured cobs and hill ponies that are causing the problem. The majority of horses that end up neglected or abandoned, or are shipped off to markets both here and in France for slaughter, are TB's bred by the racing industry.

But then, I think it's one industry that could afford to pay for disposing of its own by-products without a charity funding them. No one so far seems aware of where the problem actually is, or what to do with the pile of carcesses once slaughtered. Even the European horse meat market is declining.

 

[lastchancer]

If Jamie Oliver or Gordon Ramsey did a feature on horse welfare and the benefits of using horsemeat, demonstrated by some delicious horsemeat based meal then every trendy townie in the country would want it.

 

[Alec Swan]

_GG_, ........This is the third thread in as many days, on the very same subject, 'two' of which you've started. .......

Alec.

Correction, and I apologise, 'One' of which you started!!

Alec.

 

[_GG_]

_GG_, I'm sorry if you thought me being patronising, that wasn't my intention, and as my daughter is 3 years older than you, 'young' was offered as an endearment. I suspect that you're going to like this even less; This is the third thread in as many days, on the very same subject, two of which you've started. There'll be no continuity of argument or discussion, when things are so fragmented. There are many valid points, exceptional in some cases, being made on a thread which runs parallel with this, and it may be beneficial to your valuable attempts, were there a common conversation.

This very subject has been discussed, ad-naseum and previously, but still there is never any resolve. The main reason for the apparent lethargy are those active and fund raising charities who have a vested interest in the suffering of animals. To affect any major change, there needs to be Government support and it would be highly unlikely that anyone will achieve that without the support of the major, and currently at fault, charities.

None-the-less, your efforts are laudable, and again, if I can be of any help, then you have but to ask.

Alec.

Alec, I know you well enough I think to know you would never mean anything negative

I started a new thread because the other two are talking about issues which are extremely complex and to be honest, I don't want to confuse what I plan to do with those other issues. Your words, as always, are appreciated.

It isn't the coloured cobs and hill ponies that are causing the problem. The majority of horses that end up neglected or abandoned, or are shipped off to markets both here and in France for slaughter, are TB's bred by the racing industry.

But then, I think it's one industry that could afford to pay for disposing of its own by-products without a charity funding them. No one so far seems aware of where the problem actually is, or what to do with the pile of carcesses once slaughtered. Even the European horse meat market is declining.

Precisely and there is already work being done to address that so I don't want to over complicate things.

If Jamie Oliver or Gordon Ramsey did a feature on horse welfare and the benefits of using horsemeat, demonstrated by some delicious horsemeat based meal then every trendy townie in the country would want it.

True, this is one of the reasons I am seeking additional knowledge. I don't think it would directly affect the welfare of horses, but it's acceptance could.

Correction, and I apologise, 'One' of which you started!!

Alec.

Thanks...I did contribute to those threads, but wanted to pull myself and what I want to do away from them.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

If Jamie Oliver or Gordon Ramsey did a feature on horse welfare and the benefits of using horsemeat, demonstrated by some delicious horsemeat based meal then every trendy townie in the country would want it.

He tried and failed. A ton of horse manure was dumped outside his restaurant at Claridges after his campaign to promote horse meat. He no longer has a restaurant at Claridges after losing his Michelin status and failing to renew the contract

 

[Merrymoles]

I'm not sure where to post this with all the current threads so may multi-post http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/private-members-bill-tackle-fly-grazing/

Congratulations to Julian Sturdy for getting off his bottom and starting the process. I wrote to my local MP who is in a neighbouring constituency to Mr Sturdy and he responded by saying he was liaising with Mr S to tackle the issue - so that's support from at least two!

 

[lastchancer]

He tried and failed. A ton of horse manure was dumped outside his restaurant at Claridges after his campaign to promote horse meat. He no longer has a restaurant at Claridges after losing his Michelin status and failing to renew the contract

Really? I should watch more TV lol
Bloody do gooders really should learn to think a little deeper about what they are doing.

 

[honetpot]

It isn't the coloured cobs and hill ponies that are causing the problem. The majority of horses that end up neglected or abandoned, or are shipped off to markets both here and in France for slaughter, are TB's bred by the racing industry.

But then, I think it's one industry that could afford to pay for disposing of its own by-products without a charity funding them. No one so far seems aware of where the problem actually is, or what to do with the pile of carcesses once slaughtered. Even the European horse meat market is declining.

Most of the low value animals were never intentionally bred for meat either for pet of human consumption.


The most profitable meat horses are young TB's with a passport that someone else had fed until the are ready for dispatch. I do not understand why certain breeders breed so many but for some breeders its cultural and has nothing to do with breeding for the meat trade or they would breed the types that they do on the continent. The reason why rare breed farm animals are rare is because the carcass does not carry enough meat for the supermarket, no one would really breed ponies under 13.2 for meat or they would have mass farms for them on the continent. Meat horses are big animals.
If you think that consumers are going to switch to horse meat quickly I think you deluded, its hard enough selling UK raised veal with all the welfare pluses. When school children have a hard time equating a sausage with a pig how are they going to feel about eating Black Beauty, or the horse from War Horse?
You have to make it more expensive to breed so people if they breed 10 foals have to spend £1000 on 10 passports before they are weaned, the younger the better, and the currant regulations enforced.

Make the b***** have to pay out and there would be less incentive and stop buying cheap foals.http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/66742

 

[_GG_]

He tried and failed. A ton of horse manure was dumped outside his restaurant at Claridges after his campaign to promote horse meat. He no longer has a restaurant at Claridges after losing his Michelin status and failing to renew the contract

True and not sure...

I'm not sure where to post this with all the current threads so may multi-post http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/private-members-bill-tackle-fly-grazing/


Congratulations to Julian Sturdy for getting off his bottom and starting the process. I wrote to my local MP who is in a neighbouring constituency to Mr Sturdy and he responded by saying he was liaising with Mr S to tackle the issue - so that's support from at least two!

Very interesting article isn't it.

Really? I should watch more TV lol
Bloody do gooders really should learn to think a little deeper about what they are doing.

Well, I think before believing that he lost his contract with Claridges over horse poo, it would be worth checking the facts...It had more to do with poor management, financial and family issues. The horse manure dumping was early 2007...his contract ended in 2012, so the two are not linked and to say so is a little reaching.

 

[_GG_]

Most of the low value animals were never intentionally bred for meat either for pet of human consumption.


The most profitable meat horses are young TB's with a passport that someone else had fed until the are ready for dispatch. I do not understand why certain breeders breed so many but for some breeders its cultural and has nothing to do with breeding for the meat trade or they would breed the types that they do on the continent. The reason why rare breed farm animals are rare is because the carcass does not carry enough meat for the supermarket, no one would really breed ponies under 13.2 for meat or they would have mass farms for them on the continent. Meat horses are big animals.
If you think that consumers are going to switch to horse meat quickly I think you deluded, its hard enough selling UK raised veal with all the welfare pluses. When school children have a hard time equating a sausage with a pig how are they going to feel about eating Black Beauty, or the horse from War Horse?
You have to make it more expensive to breed so people if they breed 10 foals have to spend £1000 on 10 passports before they are weaned, the younger the better, and the currant regulations enforced.

Make the b***** have to pay out and there would be less incentive and stop buying cheap foals.http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/66742

I used to breed rare breed pigs. British Lops in fact and anyone that knows anything about them will tell you how much meat you get off them. They are one of the largest and biggest yielding pigs, but they became a rare breed because they went out of fashion...nothing to do with how much meat was on their bones.

It sounds easy to think that increasing the prices of breeding would help, but it could also potentially push it all underground where the horses in most need of rescue were not on the radar.

 

[Cherryade]

Not read all the replies, so I apologise if this has been covered.
The main target in all this I feel is the 'rescuers' that are funding these breeders/dealers. They would be hysterical at the thought of sending them for meat, that's their sole aim to prevent. So we would end up with more 'rescuers'. breeders/dealers with more money/stock due to the 'improved' meat market. If you could get these to sit up and listen, stop buying poor quality ponies without passports, passing around 'companions' etc you would be on the right path. Not trying to be negative I agree with all points but these the ones trying to save the horses are doing more hindering than helping :/

 

[_GG_]

Not read all the replies, so I apologise if this has been covered.
The main target in all this I feel is the 'rescuers' that are funding these breeders/dealers. They would be hysterical at the thought of sending them for meat, that's their sole aim to prevent. So we would end up with more 'rescuers'. breeders/dealers with more money/stock due to the 'improved' meat market. If you could get these to sit up and listen, stop buying poor quality ponies without passports, passing around 'companions' etc you would be on the right path. Not trying to be negative I agree with all points but these the ones trying to save the horses are doing more hindering than helping :/

That's like music to my ears. They are the exact people, those and the people that support them that I want education to be aimed at. At the moment it is deemed by most to be bad that horses go for meat. That needs to change and what needs to be seen as bad is insufficiently supported rescues taking these horses on.

 

[lastchancer]

I think that
1, breeders of foals should have to pay more to register them, this fee could include the cost of having it pts when the time comes. That would stop a lot of breeding straight away and set a base price of a few hundred for a foal.

2,Educate the public on the truth about charities, the bigger ones are glorified businesses and very wealthy ones at that. If horses had a base value then horse charities would have far less horses dumped on them and thus wouldn't perhaps have so much money thrown at them to pay the directors big wages. The animal charities do a lot of good of course, but make no mistake they feather their own nests very comfortably indeed from the donations of well meaning public.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Not read all the replies, so I apologise if this has been covered.
The main target in all this I feel is the 'rescuers' that are funding these breeders/dealers. They would be hysterical at the thought of sending them for meat, that's their sole aim to prevent. So we would end up with more 'rescuers'. breeders/dealers with more money/stock due to the 'improved' meat market. If you could get these to sit up and listen, stop buying poor quality ponies without passports, passing around 'companions' etc you would be on the right path. Not trying to be negative I agree with all points but these the ones trying to save the horses are doing more hindering than helping :/

That'd be great if you could decide who these 'rescuers' actually are. In reality, the people with a bleeding heart and no idea, are in the minority. Some people buy these unwanted ones from markets and give them good homes. I know a few YO's and RS owners who have bought the waifs and strays because they had the facilities and the heart to take a chance .

 

[cobgoblin]

Ethical horse meat production isn't viable and never has been. Cattle are cheaper to feed and quicker to grow. As the only way of getting horse meat, is as a by product from the neglectful owners, I don't see where the market for it will come from. Traditionally, Catholics, Jews and Muslims do not eat horse, which takes away a hefty chunk of potential consumers.

Catholics have no food restrictions. Jews cannot eat meat from cloven-hooved animals and Muslims do not eat beef. So the potential market is not so reduced,but whether the British public would ever take to eating horsemeat is anyone's guess. Can't say I would want to eat it, anymore than I would want to eat dog or cat or songbirds.

 

[lastchancer]

If only people took more of an interest in where their meat came from in general, I for one would far sooner buy locally reared and prepared meat, be it from cattle, chicken sheep or horses. Welfare of animals in general is far better in this country than most, yet people buy whatever cheap rubbish is in the supermarket. Hence why they got away with putting horsemeat in frozen meals....

 

[cobgoblin]

Macdobbin burgers might work.

 

[honetpot]

I used to breed rare breed pigs. British Lops in fact and anyone that knows anything about them will tell you how much meat you get off them. They are one of the largest and biggest yielding pigs, but they became a rare breed because they went out of fashion...nothing to do with how much meat was on their bones.

It sounds easy to think that increasing the prices of breeding would help, but it could also potentially push it all underground where the horses in most need of rescue were not on the radar.

Most rare breeds carry too much fat for the supermarket and they look for early maturing young animals, I suppose that would be the same with horses.

The 'rescuer' is all a bit Black Beauty as well, we have a culture of trying to save everything whether its in the animals long term interests or not. I still think if you make it unprofitable to breed to sell on as a foal an there was a minim passport fee, hobby breeder would still breed the odd one or tow but it would stop the foal farms that churn them out before they have to passport them before sale. Why would you sell a foal for £7(from the sales) when its cost you £100 to passport it?

 

[Cherryade]

That'd be great if you could decide who these 'rescuers' actually are. In reality, the people with a bleeding heart and no idea, are in the minority. Some people buy these unwanted ones from markets and give them good homes. I know a few YO's and RS owners who have bought the waifs and strays because they had the facilities and the heart to take a chance .

The majority do have the right intentions and I don't want to discredit the good work some do but its similar to the breeding situation, one doesn't make much of a splash but when hundreds all over have the same idea you get a ripple effect.

 

[cbmcts]

This is very interesting reading and I agree that education is key. As Cheryl says it needs a two prong approach...my thoughts are that there needs to be an equating of these FB rescues ( for want of a better phase) with puppy farming. That campaign has been quite successful in making Joe Public aware that supporting bad breeders are only going to perpetuate the problem and it would be interesting to see if that awareness can be transferred to horses.

As far as creating a market for horsemeat is concerned, as a caterer by trade I think one of the plus points that could be used is that it is very sustainable but I also know that Food Safety regs as they stand will make it near impossible for it to be anything but a niche market...so value needs to be added in other ways.

As I said on Fides thread, personally I cannot see how we can avoid regulating - no new regs, just enforce the ones we've already got with of course a central PIO and failure to comply enforced and fined heavily enough to be a deterrent. This needs political will but there is an election due in the next year so a perfect time to campaign.

GG, I'll pm you now and start composing an email...

 

[PollyP99]

I'd really like to know where all of these horse eating French people are... Yes, you can buy horse meat in the supermarket; it occupies about 2sq feet of shelf space, it is always vacuum packed and it nearly alwyas comes from Uruguay or Paraguay.

The only place I've ever seen French horse meat on the market is Switzerland.

Maybe nearly all French petfood is horse meat, because all of the masses (apparently) of horses sent for "meat" in France don't end up in the human food chain.

(now I'll read the rest of the thread )

This^^^, I lived in France for years and as above saw only a tiny amount of shelf space given over to horse meat, there used to be a specialist horse butcher in one of the towns I lived in all boarded up and apparently it was closed years ago, locals said just no call for it and this was in pretty rural regions.

The idea that the french habitually eat horse meat is miles of the mark and I could never see it becoming a meat of choice here unless well disguised.

 

[Alec Swan]

........ Jews cannot eat meat from cloven-hooved animals and Muslims do not eat beef. ........

Honestly? Do a little research and you'll find that the sheep and the goat are both cloven hoofed, and are the preferred meat of the desert dweller.

Alec.

 

[cobgoblin]

Honestly? Do a little research and you'll find that the sheep and the goat are both cloven hoofed, and are the preferred meat of the desert dweller.

Alec.

Sorry I missed off a bit. They can eat animals that are cloven-hooved and chew the cud. They cannot eat animals that don't have both these qualities. I'm going bonkers!

 

[MissChaos]

Sorry I missed off a bit. They can eat animals that are cloven-hooved and chew the cud. They cannot eat animals that don't have both these qualities. I'm going bonkers!

On a previous topic, Muslims don't eat pork. The rules around beef are the same that apply to other meats.