Behaviour - horse goes crazy if asked to stay behind on hack/Xc

[laurenn1010]

I'm having a real issue with my mare, she is clearly a lead mare and will not settle behind,

Year before last I took her to hunt and it blew her mind she danced about and was very excited, I had no breaks at all so decided to not try her again until some further training.

I have had her five years and during this time have mostly been hacking around our home grounds and an occasionally hack with friends. More recently I have had her to some Xc go as you please and again she has got excited danced around and basically behaved badly. She now , if asked to stay behind , has a big hissy fit raises and shakes her head and pulls it tight to her chest and prances every which way and direction to try and bull ahead. I sit quietly and try to have the rein as loose as possible but the slightest drop in pressure results in her dashing off in canter or trot and head down adamant to get ahead. This past few occasions if horses go ahead she will stop dead, head in air, look behind her and then ahead and then will take a huge cat leap from standstill almost tossing me off! Thankfully I have stayed on and have slapped her when this happens but she still gets worked up and will be literally dripping with sweat even tho all we have been doing is walkin or rather jigging along! When she gets in this frame of mind, she can be like that the whole way home even if allowed to be at front she wants to trot on even still! Argh!

I'm really disappointed as I would like to do some Xc and hacking with larger groups o friends. She is 100% if in a field of show jumps were she knows she is staying in that area and other horses, it is just a problem if we are on open road or walking across new ground ie hunting or Xc field.

My plan was to initially try her for 5 mins or so behind others and then allow her up front again and keep doing this until I worked up till longer periods but she is getting downright dangerous now with this buck an leap forward she has developed.

I'm riding in a dutch gag with curb strap and before just dutch gag. She is very strong mare when with others. And would be the herd leader in our horses at home in the field.

Please can anyone suggest anything?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Have you got 2 reins on your Dutch gag? If not, that would be my first step.
Find one friend with a very sensible but bossy horse. Practise riding alongside and behind just for a few seconds at a time, gradually increasing the length of time. If she gets silly circle her while the other horse walks on. If you are very strict about this she will get the idea that she can't always go in front. You may need to practise in an arena at first. If you are hacking, I wouldn't let her set off first but insist that she goes behind to leave the yard.

 

[laurenn1010]

Have you got 2 reins on your Dutch gag? If not, that would be my first step.
Find one friend with a very sensible but bossy horse. Practise riding alongside and behind just for a few seconds at a time, gradually increasing the length of time. If she gets silly circle her while the other horse walks on. If you are very strict about this she will get the idea that she can't always go in front. You may need to practise in an arena at first. If you are hacking, I wouldn't let her set off first but insist that she goes behind to leave the yard.

I ride with Pelham roundings, I have tried the circling motion but once she stops an goes to walk on again is wen I get the spring buck. In an arena I am not seeing any of these problems, just out on hack or Xc

 

[ridefast]

What's she like if allowed to go first?

 

[laurenn1010]

If allowed to go first she marches off ahead, sometimes settled other times still wanting to go harder. But I need her to settle behind if she is to hunt etc or is it going to be a lost cause?

 

[ridefast]

Is she the sort of horse that needs a good blast first to get it out of her system? Or does that wind her up more? Why is it so important that she goes hunting?

 

[laurenn1010]

Yea although she never tires she just seems to go on forever! Never runs outta energy! It's not important to hunt but I wouldn't mind an occasional hack or Xc day!

 

[DabDab]

When you are behind you could try making her work a little harder - so collected trot (i.e. NOT a jig jog), leg yield, shoulder in etc. - just to try and shift her brain off the obsession with being in front. If hunting really blew her brains, I'm not sure taking her out again this season would necessarily be advisable, because the likelihood is that the same thing will happen. Out doing xc you could school her in canter while others jump and then take her to a different jump rather than taking over the one they have all jumped for a few session, again just to stop her fixating.

Good luck with her, hope you calm her down

 

[AmyMay]

The more you do, the better she'll get. And to be fair, its a big ask for her to be made to wait whilst everyone canters off when you're doing cross country with lots of others. Similarly hunting can be very exciting first time out. Hunt her twice a week for a month, and she'll be a different horse.

You can do as much schooling as you like at home - but working in company in the more exciting situations is the only way she'll learn to settle and listen to you more.

 

[laurenn1010]

The more you do, the better she'll get. And to be fair, its a big ask for her to be made to wait whilst everyone canters off when you're doing cross country with lots of others. Similarly hunting can be very exciting first time out. Hunt her twice a week for a month, and she'll be a different horse.

You can do as much schooling as you like at home - but working in company in the more exciting situations is the only way she'll learn to settle and listen to you more.

It's not like the others are cantering off without her we always stay together in group. Like for example we will be out on hack walking along, all other horses very calm but she gets all worked up and when she is in that frame of mind it doesn't then matter if she is allowed back up front. This can be brought on by simply asking for two mins to walk behind a leader. It also happened the other night when my friend on bicycle went ahead of her!!!

Unfortunately I will not be able to hunt her twice a wk as locally there is only once a wk if even. Although this behaviour is uncontrollable and she is now dangerous I would say!

She used to hack out fine but I'm assuming the hunt and the Xc training has brought this new behaviour out in her because of the excitement, but I do not feel safe galloping ahead over jumps and with no control.

I'm so disheartened with it all :-(

 

[laurenn1010]

I'm wondering should I pop off when she gets worked up and bouncing,cantering forward in slow motion and walk her by hand. As soon as I did this on Saturday she just acted normal again but as soon as hopped on again she was mental to get going again, it's like she loves it so much she gets hyper like a child on sugar !

I don't want to worsen the problem but I know she will eventually get me turfed off and will run off into the sunset if she manages!

Or how about long reining alto I think leading by hand might be best

 

[FabioandFreddy]

With the 'head down' to go - is she leaning on the bit t take a hold? If so i would try her in a waterford mouthpiece. My boy doesn't like going behind either, i can control him though in a waterford and he can't take a hold to go so has to go at the pace i dictate. I've had him 5 years and he's always been the same!!

 

[laurenn1010]

With the 'head down' to go - is she leaning on the bit t take a hold? If so i would try her in a waterford mouthpiece. My boy doesn't like going behind either, i can control him though in a waterford and he can't take a hold to go so has to go at the pace i dictate. I've had him 5 years and he's always been the same!!

Yes if I hold reins with tight contact she has head up and in to her chest and is bouncing mad, if I relax the rein she does a half rear and springs forward into like a buck and then canters forward with head down. I may try a new bit also then , thanks for suggestion.

 

[laurenn1010]

The only thing is changing the bit will not stop this spring bucking forward and cantering on the spot motion she has gotten into.

Do you folk think I should pop off and walk her a little while to settle her and then get back on or would this be letting her think she's getting away with it?

Thing is if I slap her with whip after she does this spring buck forward she doesn't even notice I have hit her and pays no regard whatsoever.

:-(

 

[poiuytrewq]

Don't be too disheartened. My TB gelding was the same, I always tried to keep him tucked in behind but as soon as he started getting iffy id try a bit of shoulder in or just bending and flexing his head. At first he didn't understand and tbh it would him up further so id put him in front and trot til he settled again. Once he really understood what I was asking it became relatively easy to distract him. Horses like this in my opinion often have a busy mind and like something to focus on. The last hack my boy did before having to retire to injury we left the yard with my daughter and her pony then met up with 4 mares and he remained calm and happy- It was the proudest day of my life with him! (small things but a few years back he'd have half killed me in that situation!)

 

[poiuytrewq]

In my situation getting off made things far worse. I did once dismount as a friend fell off and I checked she was okay. There was no where I could get on and ended up leading an absolute hooligan all the way home (friends horse clearing off made him boil over!) I only just kept hold whereas if id been on him id have had far more control.

 

[L&M]

There is a very intersting video on you tube that shows a similiar situation, ie horse throwing a hissy fit if kept behind other horses and trying to catch up when separated.

The rider made the horse ride serpentines all the way to catch up - he would then ask the horse to walk calmly, and if it started to fizz up again, straight back onto the serpentine.

Have a search and see if you can find it as looked a very effective technique - well it worked for that horse anyhow!

 

[Jenna1406]

I would try the suggested bit the waterford, it did my mare wonders. Also, I would try long reining, its a good way to see what she is doing from the ground and it is much safer. My mare used to jog alot when on the long reins but like someone said, I shifted her mind and started making her flex etc on the long reins and this worked wonders for her and our hacking.

hope you get something sorted OP. x

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Yes, I've tried the above "serpentine" technique with my boy when he was nappy. It is effective in that it takes the horse's attention away from the "problem" i.e. others going on ahead, and makes it focus on the rider.

However........ and I haven't read every single response on here so don't know if someone else has suggested this....... but personally if it was me I'd take your mare right back to basics and get her back into an arena. THEN after some schooling exercises, get some other horses in there with her and get them milling around, following her and then overtaking so that she's the last horse in the ride. And keep doing it, i.e she's in walk and/or doing a serpentine, and other horses then pass her and overtake her at the walk, trot and finally at the canter until she learns that this is just going to happen, and will keep happening, whether or not she stresses up about it. Then you could try going on a gentle hack somewhere and doing the same thing, taking it easy until she's OK with it.

TBH I don't think stronger bitting is going to do anything to sort this problem out. Its only going to be sorted by going right back to basics and making her realise that YOU not she is the herd leader, and if you decide she has to let other horses go ahead of her, then so be it.

Also, I dare to suggest that unless you DO take her back into the arena and do some schoolwork/basics with her, she's only going to get progressively ruder as time progresses as she's thinking she's getting away with it and forming bad habits.

For your own (and others) safety too, going back to working in an arena is going to provide a much safer place for everyone.

Also....perhaps it is time for you to have some experienced help with your mare??? Someone fresh might be able to throw new insight and suggest something to help.

 

[RunToEarth]

I've been there. I swapped to a Cheltenham gag with a waterford mouthpiece on two reins and I hunted twice a week mid/rear of the field. It was hell and I hated it and he was an arse, but the more I did it, the better he became, those weeks of lauching and plunging stopped although he was still strong. I let him run on when I could but I was determined to make him hunt from the middle of the field. He was, categorically, happier at the front, which is where we ended up.

 

[saddlesore]

TBH I don't think stronger bitting is going to do anything to sort this problem out. Its only going to be sorted by going right back to basics and making her realise that YOU not she is the herd leader, and if you decide she has to let other horses go ahead of her, then so be it.
Also, I dare to suggest that unless you DO take her back into the arena and do some schoolwork/basics with her, she's only going to get progressively ruder as time progresses as she's thinking she's getting away with it and forming bad habits.

This. She doesn't trust/respect you as her leader in these situations so she is making her own choices. You need to ensure that your schooling and leadership are perfect at home, then go to busier events and simply school her there. Keep doing this until you are both relaxed and confident in big groups. Don't be tempted to rush- you can't force her to feel safe and secure.

Good luck

 

[laurenn1010]

As I said though she is super at home perfect manners and schooling, and at an arena with other horses she is 100% walking cantering past etc, its just in the scene where she is going forwards on new ground that she wants to gallop ahead. The suggestion with serpentine s I feel will not work either probably as she is walking side to side and dancing every which way to get ahead already. But I will try.

I think the cause of this is due to plodding about our home grounds for 4yrs up till now with no one ever about on other horses apart from odd hack with one or two others, which I might add she was always ok to then taking her to hunt and then twice schooling over Xc to going back to hacking and now she's totally thinking she's on for a running match! . I just can't understand how she used to be ok in groups to now getting totally bonkers! I'm at my wits end on what to do next!

 

[laurenn1010]

Going back to lunging, have bought a calmer for feed and am only going to ride in groups in an arena to she settles again. She is so excitable now u can see her whole body pound with beating of her heart! She has been off work from October last yr, so starting back slowly. Any other tips gladly welcomed. Owned her so long now I can't believe that a change o type of work has caused her to change so much , I used to put complete novices on her as she was so quiet!

 

[splashgirl45]

sorry you are having so much trouble, does she need any feed at all? can you just give her hay and maybe a balancer to make sure she is getting vitamins etc,, sounds like she cannot contain her energy when out with others so cutting out all feed may help... good luck

 

[laurenn1010]

Well from my last post we have been out on a few more hacks. Yesterday she hacked out wards lovely, all be it up the other horses bum, and was chilled with loose rein. I'm still in mullen mouth Dutch gag on the normal main ring.

Homeward bound it all fell apart when the horse ahead had trotted on a little and was say 20ft ahead she got very annoyed. Instead of yanking her to stop, when she rushes I am circling her until she calms and let her walk, then circle again if she goes to trot again. She would maybe walk one stride before trying to trot again :-(

I do feel a slight progress but can't help feeling very annoyed after the hack as she works herself up into a right tizz and sweat lashing off her ... One good thing is she has stopped the spring bucks!

Can anyone offer any more tips? The calmer in the feed didn't work and she is getting no extra hard feed at present.

 

[AmyMay]

So no further forward then really. What a shame, you could have had it cracked by now.

 

[WelshD]

Can anyone offer any more tips? .

If you have been at this some months now and its not working I would go back over some of the tips offered above that you felt would not work

Or get someone in to help you

I don't think you will crack this on your own using your current methods

 

[Gloi]

My friend's horse that I ride out with is exactly like this. Most things have been tried but I think he'll always be the same. When we hack out together I usually let him go in front so he is settled and only on a good day then we can walk side by side and sometimes he will go behind for a short time. If he gets wound up he just gets put in front until he calms down again. We never tend to canter with him behind, it just winds him up and then he loses it for the rest of the ride. Not to put a downer on it but sometimes I think you have to just find the best way to manage what you can't cure and our way is to try to avoid getting him too stressed in the first place. He does cross country schooling fine, kept in front of anyone he is with but hunting was a nightmare the one time he tried it and she won't be doing it again in a hurry!

 

[Turitea]

The more you do, the better she'll get. And to be fair, its a big ask for her to be made to wait whilst everyone canters off when you're doing cross country with lots of others. Similarly hunting can be very exciting first time out. Hunt her twice a week for a month, and she'll be a different horse.

You can do as much schooling as you like at home - but working in company in the more exciting situations is the only way she'll learn to settle and listen to you more.

Such sound advice. It might take time and a bit of patience but this is exactly what I would do.

 

[Red-1]

I would get some professional help, before you get injured.

The horse is disregarding your leg and hand, but when they are worked up they are on such a hair trigger you need to be a very perceptive rider to feel where they are before it has gone too far.

Repeating more of what has not been working is unlikely to help after all this time.

You need to ascertain where she is comfortable (in an arena) and where she is not (open ground) and blur the line between the two.

Maybe you and your friends could go hire facilities, and work in ever increasing sizes of arenas and then fields? A large arena is not so exciting as maybe a very small paddock (like 20 X 20!), and then gradually increase the size.

We indoctrinate all of our horses like this, starting with our arena, then other arenas, then small paddocks, then small field, larger field, we school until the horses learn to not be connected.

We had a lovely field like this where the contours of the field were such that the horses would lose sight of each other even though they were not far apart, but we would school industriously enough that they learned not to care.

IMO riding on the road when you are so obviously not in control is an accident waiting to happen.

I have been "caught out" a time or two by silly horse unexpectedly becoming nappy when left behind, when this has happened we have turned around and trotted smartly the other way, and gone home alone. You cannot do this safely though if you have not worked hard at it on a safe area in open ground. Unless your roads do not have Joe Public with traffic?

You have to make the horse realise that there is no reward for silly behaviour. If it rushes back to the other horses, before he knows it he is trotting smartly the other way and hacks out alone until he is more independent.

Again, this has to be introduced carefully, he can go to the gate and stand there initially, then come back. Then go out, walk a 20m circle and back, then a 50m loop, then a 100m loop, etc etc.

What seems like a long way round to do training is often what works out quickest in the long run.

But, my original advice remains, get some help from pro or otherwise, who can identify where the problem begins and work from there.