Behaviour problems - advice needed for very naughty gelding

[BethH]

Hi Guys, well you all know my horse Ryan who had a kissing spine op last year as I have been very boring about in the vet section, and he has been doing brilliantly - until now!!!!! He learnt some really bad behaviour from being in pain, and when he chooses, can use it to great effect, i.e., bolting in hand and a lack of understanding that is is good manners to keep 4 feet on the floor, the rolling bronc is his most perfected performance!

The biggest achievement of the last year was that I finally managed to overcome his fears about hacking out alone and we have had some lovely rides and he has been out to a few shows on his own and behaved immaculately, he will never be delighted to be on his own but I have really persevered with it and have been thrilled with his progress.

I had the hack from hell today, over the last couple of months he has been getting really bolshy out hacking but is beautifully behaved in the school. It started off when the mare he is in the field with came out on a hack with another gelding who he knows and goes out hacking with but isn't in the field with and the tantrums were unbelieveable - almost like mass jealousy to the point he kept turning his bum and threatening to kick the gelding, small broncs and jumping sideways to stop the other horse going between him and his mare, the other horse was a poppet and completely unaware of the fuss - this is really really unlike Ryan who has always been a school master out hacking in company.

He then lost his best friend William a few weeks ago, sadly he had to be PTS due to tumours and Ryan seems to have become emotionally really unstable, almost like a nervous breakdown, he seems to be really lacking confidence but is being really bolshy as his way of letting off steam.

Well unusually he hasn't been ridden for a week and has been on a bit of a diet so I know he is hungry, emotional and a bit fresh, but we went on a hack he has done many times before and for no good reason, he has just bronced so badly the whole time, that after the 8th attempt of throwing himself around and turning inside out at various differnt points of the ride, he finally decided to get me off his back, (this is the first time since buying him 4 years ago that I have ever felt this was his intention) he almost did a somersault, his head was almost on his girth and I went sailing over his ears, he was so bad I couldn't risk getting back on as he would have chucked me off again before I was in the saddle so I had to walk halfway back home with him broncing in hand before I could get him calm enough to get back on.

Ryan has always been quite dominant and does have massive attitude but he is incredibly loveable and has always looked after me, even though we have had many hairy moments when he was in pain.

I just feel so disappointed in him and he was so vicious today that for the 1st time ever I wonder if he is in the right home. I can't understand why he is being so awful and I know it isn't back, teeth saddle etc as due to his history he is checked and monitored really carefully.

Any ideas why he is being so uncontrollable and unsafe, how to tackle the broncs and if there are any supplements or calmers I could try that might work???? Any advice gratefully received as having been through so much with him, I am very tired and now at my wits end, as am worried he could knock my renewed confidence badly or kill us both! My only saving grace was that I managed to stay on for the first 7 broncs!!!!!

 

[bexandspooky]

Blimey - he sounds like a grumpy boy!

The association of pain rather than the actual feeling of pain can be a funny thing. I dont think supplements would have a dramatic difference - IMO you need to find out the trigger to his behavior - what it is that is setting him off.

Does he do this with someone else or just you? (is there anyone else brave enough to have a go?!) Just to find out if he knows how to push your buttons, or if it is genuinely deep rooted in him. The only thing i can think of other than that is something like a behaviourist - or maybe a holiday turned away to be a horse for a bit to forget his woes.

 

[BethH]

Thanks for answering bex, he usually lives out at least 9 mths of the year and has a wonderful relaxed lifestyle, he has been so good over the last year that pretty much all of the behaviour problems disappeared which made me think I had it cracked. I am sure this is just stroppy behaviour but really just can't work out trigger apart from losing William, who was a wonderful friend for him. I don't really let anyone else ride him apart from my instructor as he can be a handful and I have only just got him used to hacking out alone, he can kick off at the flick of a switch and I would hate to be responsible for any injuries to someone else as he is so sharp, he is incredibly over-sensitive and if someone else rode with too much hand or leg rather than seat, he would just flip out even though they are all probably better riders than me, he is a very one person horse and gets anxious with new people so I tend to avoid putting him through it because of his history of pain, it makes it harder when I get back on.

Maybe he does need a holiday, perhaps that would help him??? Although he can't lose too much of his muscling as it helps keep his back strong so I do feel caught between a rock and a hard place most of the time.

 

[_Libby_]

Hi,

Just wondering how old your horse is?

 

[BethH]

Thanks for asking. He is now 8, I bought him as a 4yr old, had 2 yrs of hysterical behaviour as we asked him to start working and loads of issues whilst trying to find out what was wrong with him. He was bi-laterally lame on the back end so looked sound most of the time and vets couldn't find problem. He then had kissing spine op aged 6 1/2 and I have had a really good 12-18mths with him where he has made stunning progress in every respect, but the last 3 mths he is playing up - am sure it isn't pain or pain related, so feeling rather sad and worried at the moment as his behaviour is getting progressive more brash, think he is rather up himself and out to try and take control!

 

[_Libby_]

If you are sure he isnt in any pain then i think it may be him remembering pain from before or just simply playing up.

How is he generally with manners? Is he good in the stable? or to pick up feet or shoe? Just trying to figure out how he reacts to things.

 

[Daisychain]

I admire you for perservering, but in all honesty if you havent cracked him now, i dont think you ever will if it definately isnt pain related, if it was me im afraid he would be off to the sales, no horse is ever worth risking your life for, it is an expensive hobby you should be enjoying it, sorry if i have offended you but i just wouldnt have the time to bother.

 

[Maesfen]

Don't know what you are feeding but I would cut it all out and just feed hay; I would then turn him away without any work for a month to have a complete break as long as he can be out as much as possible, at least 8 or more hours a day so he has to keep himself moving and mobile; that way he won't lose too much muscle which you are worried about. After a month or more if you can spare it, I'd gradually start him again but still keeping him only on hay, no concentrates at all and see how you go.
At least if you turn him away for a month now you will be on the right side of days coming lighter which always helps!

He sounds a problem child with too much energy!

 

[BethH]

Feedwise he is only on a handful of HI FI Lite just so I can mix in a scoop of benevit vitamins, he gets no other hard feed or mix etc just hay when he is in overnight, normally he lives out 24/7 except for the last couple of weeks when he has started coming in overnight for a few hours as it has been so bitter.

I agree he seems to have too much energy and am starting to think I have given him every chance, but I worry about him going not only to a good home, but the right one, as he is the type to make you heavy handed, although that is positively the worst thing you could do to him as he will fight you every step of the way! Given his history he could end up in a nightmare home, so selling him would be an absolute last resort for so many reasons, I feel I have come this far but can't help thinking what an ungrateful toe rag he is even though he doesn't see it that way!

 

[BethH]

Manners wise he is excellent to clip, shoe, in the stable etc etc. He has a lovely nature, is fabulous in the herd and wouldn't dream of kicking human or horse (except Sox for the last couple of hacks when the mare has been present), he is fabulous with my 2 yr old daughter and has been out to some shows on his own this summer for the 1st time ever and was superb. He just seem to get himself in a right old state occasionally and then all hell breaks loose.

I can understand why some people might suggest selling, I am thinking long and hard about it myself but I really do love him and he is part of our family and it is only the last couple of months that he has started playing up after being fantastic since his op. He has always had some food related issues, is very greedy so think if he is hungry would definitely cause some problems, but he should be able to show enough self control to go out for a hack without having such a major tantrums surely?? Problem child isa great description!

 

[Maesfen]

It's not his feed then!

I don't know where you are or if it is feasible for you, but have you thought about sending him away for a month to a decent professional schooling yard to see if they can iron out his problems but including you riding him while there, if that makes sense? Perhaps he is just taking the pee out of you or perhaps he has a real problem which hopefully would be sorted one way or the other. (It goes without saying that you have had all the normal checks done I expect?)
It seems you have both come a long way; it would seem a shame to not get down to the root of the problem once and for all after all this time.

 

[BethH]

Might be a solution and would give me a break which at the moment sounds a lovely idea, but is such a nightmare trying to find someone you trust not to mess things up more and the problem seems to be only out hacking, not handling apart from ocasional explosions and never in the school since his op.

My instructor who was just brilliant, moved to Cornwall a few years ago and has stopped seeing her clients in Kent about 2yrs ago (she used to travel down once a month!) otherwise I wouldn't hesitate to send him to her but Cornwall seems a long old way to take him - thinking about it overnight I am wondering if it is stress related, his lifestyle isn't stressful but not having Will around for him is a massive change for him, not that it excuses his behaviour. He is such a Kevin, if he were a child they would grant him an ASBO!

 

[Maesfen]

You'll probably shake your head and hold your hands up at this - but is there anyone you would trust to take him hunting for a few days? Maybe put him in a professional hunting livery yard where he will be expected to muck in and behave as a matter of course. Forgive me if I am wrong but it sounds to me he is not getting anywhere enough hard work (as in solid road/track exercise) which he would get as a routine thing in a hunting yard. It's all very well doing things in the school but that won't stimulate him enough, body and mind, as hard fittening work in different areas over varied terrain either by himself or with others. It honestly does sound to me after going through all the posts again, that he is bored and is showing it in the only way he knows how.

 

[the watcher]

My view is that he has had a lot of change recently with his field friend being pts, occasional nights in, and to move yards would unsettle him further.
I would be tempted to go right back to the beginning with him for a few weeks, groundwork, long reining, then gentle riding in a safe environment to allow him to regain his confidence in himself and you. He sounds like he is happy when he knows exactly what the routine is and doesn't react well to change.

 

[BethH]

You know I think you are both right. I think he is bored and unsettled which is a bad combination, he is better when everything is the same and i think change does upset him. The barging in hand that he started over the summer was only when he saw the muzzle that I had to put on him as he is so greedy, he never had a problem before but decided to take massive exception to it this summer so think I will strip graze him in the spring to avoid this problem re-occuring as he has always been very good in hand and that was the start of the downhill slide in attitude.

I would love to do some jumping with him but because of wanting to strengthen him correctly 1st, I have been avoiding it and now he is so explosive, have chickened out a bit. We don't have any hunting around us as I think that would be just great for him, but there is a new small cross country course that has opened nearby, I wonder if taking him there would let him run off some steam, I need to find someone really confident to help me though as I haven't done alot of jumping and never with him so he is completely green and I want to get it right as if not he will be like the charge of the light brigade!!!!

I have done a lot of groundwork with him, especially long reining which he really enjoys and actually that might make him relax a bit as is less pressure than riding, think I might re-introduce that once or twice a week. It is funny all of our hacking is on open fields and I have never ever worried about him bolting or playing up he has always been so good, even after he chucked me off he just walked 3 paces away and started grazing and I just walked straight back over to him to catch him without a problem which is why I think it isn't pain related as he wasn't worried until we started walking back.

Thank you for your answers will give your ideas some more though, feeling a bit more positive thank you

 

[Grumpy Herbert]

I think I agree with The Winter. He's been through a lot in the past few years with the op and losing his buddy. He maybe just needs a bit of time off to let it all sink in. I know you worry about him losing muscle tone, but really the way he is at the moment you can't do a lot with him anyway. Might be worth taking the risk? Then when you've both had a period of time to chill out, you can approach the whole situation with a fresh outlook.

I'm in a similar situation myself at the moment, facing giving my difficult gelding some time off as I'm due to give birth any day! I'm just going to bite the bullet and give him, and me, the time.

 

[BethH]

Thanks Prilly, you have my sympathy. I decided not to ride today but to long rein to see if that made a difference, I had some nice work but only after the tantrum which is not his style these days especially in the school. He looks so sad at the moment am sure he is a bit depressed, so think am going to spend a couple of weeks just making a fuss of him and having some quality time and take the pressure off him. He doesn't get quite as much attention as he used to since my daughter was born although he loves her to bits and is beautifully behaved around her. Good luck with your baby, hope all goes well and the labour is very very quick! I have been told that sometimes geldings get a bit jealous when their owners get pregnant so your boy might settle down once he meets the baby! Fingers crossed your situation works out well too!