Behaviour Problems, seems to be one thing after another, any advice

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amp11

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Hi,

I'm new to this but would really appreciate peoples thoughts on the following.

I have owned my horse for about 6 months now, 17h TB 16yrs old and he has always been a real gentleman until about 3 weeks ago. He moved yards about 5 weeks ago as it is a lot more convienient for me, especially with winter coming.

As of 3 weeks ago he started getting really nasty around food, so after speaking to a few people about it we decided it was down to him probably being a bit bored and hungry (grass is short due to lack of rain this year), so have since been bringing him in for breakfast and dinner daily, currently lives out but will be coming in at night time shortly. he got to the point that if you went near him whilst he was eating he would literally lunge at you with front legs and ears flat back and then kick out with back legs. after a couple of days he stopped doing this and is back to normal around food, he has also moved into a field with more grass with his 2 field mates as well which has probably helped as well. Then he started getting really funny with his back legs and kept kicking out when you tried to put boots on/pick his feet out, which he is still doing and then last week i bought him in and he was really fidgety whilst tied up outside his stable and was trying to break away so put him in his stable and he started pacing round and rearing, went to turn him back out and have to walk through one field which is empty to get to his field and he went crazy was trying to gallop off, rearing etc so decided to just unclip leadrope and let him go in empty field rather than attempt to get to other field as was not even half way across field, he galloped off and was rearing right up over the fence to the other field and galloping around for about 40mins, once he had calmed down i then walked up and undid the gate to his field and take his head collar off and he went into his own field fine. i then made decision that next time i turn him out i will do in a bridle with a lunge line as he is a big boy to be playing up, went to turn him out a few days later and he was rearing again and trying to gallop off and wasalso very fidgety and playing up on the yard again.

Really dont know what to do with him as it is so out of character for him as he is normally the quietest horse i have known, i have spoken to his old owner who owned him for 8 years and he has never known him to play up like this. I had his teeth, back etc all checked when i got him and will get them checked again if it will help??

Any one had anything like this before or any ideas on how to solve? getting fed up as it seems like one thing after another and he was never like this when i first got him and moved him to previous yard.:(
 
Could be because he's in a new place? My boy takes about six months to settle anywhere new. I'd get all the usual checks done just to make sure and then try and stick to a routine with him. You could try some groundwork too to help with the leading to the field. Perhaps just feed him in his stable and leave him to it. Good luck
 
I think he is testing you now - new owner and then a yard change. He might well have been hungry, worked out he could be bargy around food and is now pushing his boundaries. How about asking his old owner if they would mind just coming to help you readjust said boundaries? particularly as there is nothing else wrong.

My young ISH is the same size and is also very protective around his food. He always pushes his luck and from time to time, but we manage it by firmness and not underestimating him. It has not been helped by him being ill and dropping a lot of weight, so he really DOES have a reason to be so hungry! and all the extra feeds and hay actually means he is now assuming anyone coming near his box is going to feed him...
 
I think there could be several things going on here. Firstly, he is probably very hungry. Does he have hay/haylage in his field? The grass is very poor here and I have been feeding haylage all through the summer. If I did not feed it, the horses would start to behave like your boy. Horses get frantic when they are hungry and other symptoms can develop due to the formation of gastric ulcers etc. Thoroughbreds will get hungry quicker than heavier or native breeds.

Secondly, he may dislike his new yard. We had a horse arrive here that had become dangerous at his previous yard due to his rearing and aggressive behaviour. From the moment he arrived here, he never put a foot wrong and is the easiest of all the horses to handle.

Thirdly, there could be a pain issue. My boy had been examined by the vet and the physio and his back was 'fine'. He has symptoms of being difficult with picking up his hind legs to pick out (kicking out etc) when previously he had been fine. It turns out he has kissing spine. Without xrays there is no way of diagnosing this condition.

Personally, I think the majority of your horse's problem is hunger. Hard feed will not help this, he needs adlib forage and if the grazing is poor, then he will not be getting it.
 
Wagtail said:
I think there could be several things going on here. Firstly, he is probably very hungry. Does he have hay/haylage in his field? The grass is very poor here and I have been feeding haylage all through the summer. If I did not feed it, the horses would start to behave like your boy. Horses get frantic when they are hungry and other symptoms can develop due to the formation of gastric ulcers etc. Thoroughbreds will get hungry quicker than heavier or native breeds.

Secondly, he may dislike his new yard. We had a horse arrive here that had become dangerous at his previous yard due to his rearing and aggressive behaviour. From the moment he arrived here, he never put a foot wrong and is the easiest of all the horses to handle.

Thirdly, there could be a pain issue. My boy had been examined by the vet and the physio and his back was 'fine'. He has symptoms of being difficult with picking up his hind legs to pick out (kicking out etc) when previously he had been fine. It turns out he has kissing spine. Without xrays there is no way of diagnosing this condition.

Personally, I think the majority of your horse's problem is hunger. Hard feed will not help this, he needs adlib forage and if the grazing is poor, then he will not be getting it.
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could not agree more!!! Micah is the gentlest horse I have ever known BUT if he gets hungry he is a nightmare, rearing, barging, kicking etc
 
Great post Wagtail.

What is his routine? What time does he go out and come in? Does he go out every day? Is he fed and turned out at the same time as other horses or do some go out before him? If they do - is he used to that? Also - what are you feeding him in hard feed and has that changed. Oh, and does he have ad lib hay when in, is there some left over in the morning?
 
I would have given the same reply as Wagtail. A 17 hands horse needs a very large amount of forage. More hard food than he needs for the work he does could actually make him worse.
 
Have you had a routine change? What are his field mates like - is he with more/less horses than before, how do they treat him and is it differnet from before?
 
Hi I agree with all of the above, he may need time to settle into his new home which for some horses can take a bit of time.

I also would be tempeted to get a controller headcollar/ or one of the ones you can fit onto a headcollar to help prevent him from rearing when you take him to the field. My new horse was like yours to begin with when being turned out as we also had to go through one empty field to another, I used one of the controller attachments to his headcollar (with a lunge line, hard hat and gloves to be safe), he tried to rear once but then with the pressure from the halter he soon realised he couldnt and hasnt tried it since and now calmly as a mouse leads into the fields and anywhere without a fuss.

Also get him thoroughly checked out again to make sure there is no underlying reasons for his behaviour, its that time of year again where they are getting abit hungry and they're not getting as much from the grass as what they were doing.

Keep at it and I hope he settles down soon.
 
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It could be 1 of 2 things.
1) As Wagtail says, he is a big boy and is just hungry! See if you can orginise to try and get a few piles of hay put out every day into the field. (I would say 4 piles for 3 horses so when they are hungry they don't get nasty over just one pile, I like to have 1 more pile in the field then there are horses, especially if your boy is getting grumpy!

Failing that bring him in at night and have him put out in the morning on a full belly of hay and feed. If it persists I would have him brought in at lunch time to a big haynet.

2) Again as Wagtail says, some horses just don't like some yards! My last mare was on a little private yard for 6 months. She never truly settled. Was an arse to handle, lunging at people over the stable door as they walked past, running through electric fencing and cornering all the horses and threatning to kick them! Moved her yards and yes she still had her dominant tendancies but became so much more relaxed to handle and in her stable etc. Massive change in her.
 
Yep agree with al the above...definitely ensure he gets ad lib hay when in.
For my TB her environment is everything...she got depressed at one yard which resulted in one of two things - she would switch off and be grumpy or would be difficult to do things with. Moved yards and within 24hrs different mind-set, stopped doing same ind of work and just hacked her out before starting schooling again...she was not happy in the yard environment - didnt like indoor stable and we wre doing a lot of dressage which bored her!
Routine is important - black and white - no grey areas...this is what happens and this is when it happens.
My marewent through a stage of bolting off as soon as you got in to the field...so we spent time taking her out on a lunge line, trying our best to keep hold of her(!), making it all as calm as possible - she was the first one out so no-one to run too and having a carrot to give her so you could take off her headcollar...gave her something to think about instead of just dashing off...in every other respect she was well-mannered. She took time to get used to the routine of the yard too...she hates being on her own and expected all the horses to be brought in in a certain order - she would stand and count and scream ifthey werent!
I would do all the above and take time with your horse...get to realisebeing with you is nicer then buggering away from you. Maybe just take him for a walk in hand...get him to realise it can be nice to be led and not just a means to an end of getting with his mates.
Autism did cross our minds with her...she likes things in a certain way and orderly!!
Sometimes they just seem to start doing something for no reason but there is usually a trigger to it...you have to 'listen' to them!
Good Luck :-)
 
could be as said above or possibly he's bonded with one horse already and now doesn't like being away from them, he's learnt that by being fidgety he will get taken back to his field where his mate is. maybe playing up in the empty field because he's very anxious at getting back to his mates.
 
I think the importance of routine depends on the horse. For some it gives them another reason for stress. That's why I'm asking if he has had changes in his routine, it may be about what he's used to.
 
Wagtails suggestions are spot on.
Your poor lad is a very worried horse at the moment. The more difficult his behaviour, the calmer and more consistent, you need to be. You are his rock when his world is scary and uncertain. Apart from the suggestions given already, try to ensure you establish a routine so he knows something in his life is predictable and safe.
 
The point at which this behaviour could have been nipped in the bud was when the horse first threatened you over his feed. If you had made yourself appear dangerous at that point, and had taken him on and chased him off the feed, he would not have detected weaknesses in your dealing with him.

Unfortunately, that advantage was lost to you then, and now the horse has absolutely no respect for you.

You need some help in handling this horse so that he learns that he must behave around you, and is dissuaded from treating you as a lower-ranking member of the herd.
 
Elfen said:
Could be because he's in a new place? My boy takes about six months to settle anywhere new. I'd get all the usual checks done just to make sure and then try and stick to a routine with him. You could try some groundwork too to help with the leading to the field. Perhaps just feed him in his stable and leave him to it. Good luck
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I agree with this, my lad took nearly a year to settle when we moved him, his behaviour went right down hill for the first 4 months.
FDC
 
AengusOg said:
The point at which this behaviour could have been nipped in the bud was when the horse first threatened you over his feed. If you had made yourself appear dangerous at that point, and had taken him on and chased him off the feed, he would not have detected weaknesses in your dealing with him.

Unfortunately, that advantage was lost to you then, and now the horse has absolutely no respect for you.

You need some help in handling this horse so that he learns that he must behave around you, and is dissuaded from treating you as a lower-ranking member of the herd.
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But the problem with his feed stopped. Isn't it a big leap from a horse getting possessive at feed time to a horse that is exhibiting a lot of other stressed behaviour?

I've dealt with a few horses that were food aggressive, in fact I have one now. I can't say that I've observed a link between that behaviour and the horses doing things like rearing and being difficult to turn out, or starting to kick out when booted. Not wanting to go in all guns blazing and contradict another poster, I'm just suggesting that it might not be as simple as that. Besides, the thing that seemed to make food aggressive horses improve in that respect has always been to let them have some peace, that was the advice I was given by a respected equine behaviourist many years back and it hasn't let me down yet.

I'd still like to see what Op has to say in reply to some of the questions that have been asked before deciding that the horse needs to be taught some sort of lesson. Maybe think about causes before going in all guns blazing and dealing with the symptoms?

Just another viewpoint, not looking for a fight or anything.

p.s. My food aggressive horse is an absolute angel in all other respects. I think if I'd made myself appear dangerous to him, in some attempt to establish "leadership", it would have been very unfair on him and possibly counter-productive.
 
Hi All,

Thanks for all your replies and advice, really appreciated. He is in a set routine of coming in at the same time every morning and evening for breakfast and dinner and has as much hay/haylage as he can eat when in. He stayed in for the first time last night and seems to be back to his normal self, fingers crossed. When i turned him out this morning he just walked nicely to the field and waited for me to take his bridle off and then walked away. He will be coming every night now so hopefully this will settle him down a bit more.
I will keep you all posted and once again, thank you for your replies.
 
Tinypony said:
But the problem with his feed stopped. Isn't it a big leap from a horse getting possessive at feed time to a horse that is exhibiting a lot of other stressed behaviour?

.
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It would be easy to assume that .

My point is this. The horse has recently moved yards, but previously was very well-behaved.

He now has to establish a place in the hierarchy of the new yard and its occupants. It matters not to him that not all the horses are in the same field as he is; his communications with them are not greatly influenced by fences.

His efforts to aggressively defend his feed from his owner were symptomatic of his insecurity. His attention is now more on the surroundings and the other horses, than with his relationship with his owner.

In fact, the relationship which existed between horse and owner prior to the relocation to the new yard no longer applies. All his current behaviour is based on his perception of her as part of a new, strange group, and that stemmed from the point at which she yielded to him over the feed issue.

The horse is now so concerned about establishing a position with the other herd members around him, actively communicating with them regardless of his owner's presence, and so insecure in his new surroundings, that he is behaving with total disregard and lack of respect for his owner.

His owner, in my experience, needs to work the horse in isolation (initially) from the other influences around him, and should concentrate on groundwork exercises which will help the horse become responsive and compliant, and which will help him become more confident and secure in their relationship. His owner will have to be proactive in her handling of the horse when she is again within sight and sound of the other horses, and keep him focussed on her, rather than allow his attention to stray.

When the horse is handled thus, given time to settle into his new surroundings, and has established his position in the new hierarchy of the herd, his behaviour should return to normal.
 
That's great and does suggest hunger was the route. You may find he is a handful to handle when you bring him in as he may be hungry again. If this happens are you able to put hay in the field for him?
 
amp11 said:
Hi All,

Thanks for all your replies and advice, really appreciated. He is in a set routine of coming in at the same time every morning and evening for breakfast and dinner and has as much hay/haylage as he can eat when in. He stayed in for the first time last night and seems to be back to his normal self, fingers crossed. When i turned him out this morning he just walked nicely to the field and waited for me to take his bridle off and then walked away. He will be coming every night now so hopefully this will settle him down a bit more.
I will keep you all posted and once again, thank you for your replies.
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I think that the fact that the horse is now happier when he is staying in at night indicates that it was a straight forward hunger issue. If he has as much hay and haylage as he can eat only when he is in, then bringing in over night would have substantially increased his food ration and he is a happy horse again. It is easy to underestimate the effect that hunger has on a horse's behaviour.
 
Aengusog
I am normally in agreement with being your horses leader sorry but I disagree completely. This is a horse who is normally fine and suddenly changed. He is hungry and possibly not been before so doesn't know what is going on. If he had not reacted owner would not have known there was a problem. Sometimes listening to them and fixing the problem is the best way to stop unwanted behaviour!
 
soulfull said:
That's great and does suggest hunger was the route. You may find he is a handful to handle when you bring him in as he may be hungry again. If this happens are you able to put hay in the field for him?
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I think our posts crossed. I completey agree. I think it was a simple hunger issue. I have seen it time and time again, and yet people are perplexed and try to look for much more complicated reasons for the behaviour. I find that if I leave the horses in an extra hour in the morning in winter, with fresh haylage, they go out much calmer than if I simply feed them breakfast and turn straight out.
 
amp11 said:
Hi,

I'm new to this but would really appreciate peoples thoughts on the following.

I have owned my horse for about 6 months now, 17h TB 16yrs old and he has always been a real gentleman until about 3 weeks ago. He moved yards about 5 weeks ago as it is a lot more convienient for me, especially with winter coming.

As of 3 weeks ago he started getting really nasty around food, so after speaking to a few people about it we decided it was down to him probably being a bit bored and hungry (grass is short due to lack of rain this year), so have since been bringing him in for breakfast and dinner daily, currently lives out but will be coming in at night time shortly. he got to the point that if you went near him whilst he was eating he would literally lunge at you with front legs and ears flat back and then kick out with back legs. after a couple of days he stopped doing this and is back to normal around food, he has also moved into a field with more grass with his 2 field mates as well which has probably helped as well. Then he started getting really funny with his back legs and kept kicking out when you tried to put boots on/pick his feet out, which he is still doing and then last week i bought him in and he was really fidgety whilst tied up outside his stable and was trying to break away so put him in his stable and he started pacing round and rearing, went to turn him back out and have to walk through one field which is empty to get to his field and he went crazy was trying to gallop off, rearing etc so decided to just unclip leadrope and let him go in empty field rather than attempt to get to other field as was not even half way across field, he galloped off and was rearing right up over the fence to the other field and galloping around for about 40mins, once he had calmed down i then walked up and undid the gate to his field and take his head collar off and he went into his own field fine. i then made decision that next time i turn him out i will do in a bridle with a lunge line as he is a big boy to be playing up, went to turn him out a few days later and he was rearing again and trying to gallop off and wasalso very fidgety and playing up on the yard again.

Really dont know what to do with him as it is so out of character for him as he is normally the quietest horse i have known, i have spoken to his old owner who owned him for 8 years and he has never known him to play up like this. I had his teeth, back etc all checked when i got him and will get them checked again if it will help??

Any one had anything like this before or any ideas on how to solve? getting fed up as it seems like one thing after another and he was never like this when i first got him and moved him to previous yard.:(
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The horse may well have been hungry, but there are still the behavioural problems listed above to address. We shall see in the fullness of time whether a wee bit more feed will solve the op's problems.
 
I'm still waiting for Op to return. I'm not sure this will be down to just a bit more feed, but it might. If it isn't I would look at other management issues and what changes may have happened since he moved, rather than wanting to make myself appear dangerous to him.
 
AengusOg said:
The horse may well have been hungry, but there are still the behavioural problems listed above to address. We shall see in the fullness of time whether a wee bit more feed will solve the op's problems.
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True, my horse is always looking to push his boundaries. Luckily he isn't a nasty horse at all so is quite happy to back down easily - doesn't stop him from trying though!.
 
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