Behavioural advice and Magnesium Supplements????? Warning VERY long!!!

S

SecretSquirrell379

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Hoping for some advise about magnesium as I have no idea!! I am probably going to waffle a bit now so that you can get an idea of what I am dealing with with her so that i can get the best advice, so make yourself a cuppa first!!!

My mare is very assertive shall we say. She likes things her own way and will throw her toys out of the pram if you make her do something she doesn't want to do. Not bucking/rearing/trying to dump you but will just do whatever she can to avoid what she is being told to do. She is also very unpredictabe and inconsistant......you can ask for a transition by almost thinking then ask again 5 mins later and you almost have to pony club kick her to get her to listen......then 2 mins later push her on again and she flys off....... she changes from moment to moment and is very hard to read. She can go from being very forward going to being blinking hard work in the same amount of time. She can be loving when she wants to be and then sometimes I really don't think that she likes me very much at all. She has been getting a bit nappy recently, doesn't want to go out on her own but once we get past a certain point (only 5 mins out) then she settles and is ok. By nature she is very quirky and can be spooky (mainly brought on by me though I would of thought)

A lot has happened over the last 2-3 months. She has had cancer in her 3rd eyelid that needed an op and thankfully has now totally healed. The vet is very pleased with her and although there were a few abnormal cells in her lymph nodes he was quite happy that she would make a full recovery. One of the horses that was in a field opposite her died 5 weeks ago, very suddenly and in the field so she knew that she was dead. The horse's field mate has then moved into the field next to Cropi (think of one big field divided into 4 with a X and each horse has one of the quarters) She has become very attached to K and they often groom each other over the fence and are often laying down next to each other just seperated by the fencing. K's old field has been empty for a couple of weeks but we have to walk through there to get the the corale. Last week she started playing me up going through the field and on Wednesday I tryed to school her in the make shift menage we have but she played up something cronic. She would go past a certain part of the arena and spooked, span and started mini rears trying to get her past. I took her to the other side and tried to work her there but she was very tense, wound up and would not chill properly. She calmed down a little so I tried to get her past the long side again, she was not having it at all and started spinning and mini rearing again. She was getting worse so I gave up before I ended up coming off and took her for a hack. Again she was really tense and didn't relax at all, I tried giving her some rein to see if that calmed her down and she just marched quicker and quicker. Its like she is panicing to get back to the yard. We got back she was still tense until I put her back in the field. I rode out on Thursday with my friend and his horse (K) and she was fine, a little choppy but nothing too bad at all.

A new livery came on Thursday night and they are in the empty field that we have to go through to get to the corale. The horse is in a small fenced off area and can't get to us at all. On Friday morning we had a lesson and she was obviously very curious when we went through the field, just as we came to the corale she grew by about a hand, went very very tense and started messing about. I tied her up in her usual place and immediatley she started pacing around, trying to untie herself and the rears started. I tried to calm her down but her eyes were bulging and she looked truly panic stricken. She calmed a little for about 10 seconds then reared again several times and broke the string. I moved her to the next spot along so that she could see all of the other horses and thought that she would calm. She started rearing again, so I shouted at her and tried to calm her down. She just got worse and started rearing again. This time she pulled the rail from the post and it snapped in half. She then started eyeing up the gap left and I though that she was going to jump out. I managed to get her in a stable where she continued to spin and rear, totally paniced (or thats how she looked). By this time I was upset, shaking and I don't mind saying that she did scare me. She had no repect for me at all, didn't give a stuff if I was there or in the way, she just wanted to go where she wanted and that was that. If I was in the way she would just try and go through me.

Luckily at that point my friend came down at which point i burst into tears
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he said that she was taking the P for whatever reason, for me to get my tack and he would help me tack her up and take her to my lesson. If I wasn't for him then there was no way I would of taken her out. We got her tacked up and he walked me down the end of the lane, we got to our lesson ok but I felt such a failure and so upset by what had happened I then burst into tears again at my lesson
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My instructor sometimes teaches me off of her horse so that I can see exactly what she means and she has a better view of what we are doing. Friday was one of those days, Cropi settled really nicely and we had some lovely work from her and some of the best canter transitions. My instructor offered to ride out with me home and so she went to boot her horse up while I put Cropi's back on. As soon as her horse went Cropi started again, calling, spinning, tense and panicy. I managed to get the boots on and when he came back she was fine. We walked home together, uneventfully thank goodness and she was ok leaving him at the end of our lane. I was really upset by the whole thing and felt/feel totally inadequate with her. My friends have told me that I'm being silly but I can't help it. I've been told that she is just taking the P and i need to be harder on her from now on.

I was in France yesterday so didn't see her and today went down there and decided to bring her in, just for a groom and to see if we had the same thing again. She was ok coming in, eyed up the new horse all the while but as we got near to corale she grew again, got all tense and pranced about. I tied her up and gave her a couple of polos. I started to groom her and every time she swang her arse around I either put my elbow in her ribs to stop her or slapped her bum if the elbow was not quick enough. She tried to rear a few times which was met with a very sharp pull down on the lead rope and a stern telling off. She looks terrified when I tell her off and I feel awful but she has got to learn that she can't pull back and get away. What if she does it when we are at a show???? When I took her back across the field she was very pracy and strong but again got sharp pulls in the lead rope to stop her. As soon as she got in her field, she relaxed a bit.

My instructor has said that she has clients who are using Magnesium supplements with amazing results and she will find out more for me. I can't let this continue and I feel like we have to bond again. I may be over reacting and have to move on but need to come up with a solution. Have you tried Mangesium supplements with any success??

If you have managed to get this far then thanks very much!!! if you have the energy to comment then I'd be very grateful

Thanks guys

Tricksy xxx
 
seems to be different calmer for different horses - some peopel love teh magnesium based ones - didnt work for my mare - amercian equine so kalm was fab tho
 
Sounds like you are having a tough time. I think your mare is insecure & seems as though she wants company all the time. Patience & working through it is the way forwards. What is she like in a stable on her own? Are the other horses out of sight totally when you bring her in?

You can try magnesium but it only works if your horse has a magnesium deficiency (it is usually present in grass but may not be if your grass is poor).
 
She lives out 24/7 as do all of the other horses. Yes she does seem insecure and does want company all of the time. When she went in the stable on Friday she span, box walked and reared the whole time in there. She can still see all of the horses when she is brought in.

We have plenty of grass, its not great quality though.
 
It isn't good when we have problems with our horses given how much time and money we put into them is it? We all go through times like this and sometimes it can be worse than others. My first advice would be to stick with it and be guided by your instints first and that of ohers second.
Regarding magnesium..
Two years ago I moved yards and my mare didn't settle. Her seasons were awful she hated being left out on her own and was generally miserable. On veterinary advice I gave her a magnesium supplement and she did improve.
I wasn't very happy in the yard so 6 months later left. On arriving in my new yard I was describing how extreme she had been to the new YO. He told me that when he moved his cows to land close to the previous yard they all had to have magnesium injections when they returned to the main farm as the magnesium levels were so low. It seems a lot does depend on the quality of the ground locally. However, I recently took on rescue pony who was very stressed on arrival. I've given him magnesium and the improvement has been amazing despite the ground not being mgnesium deficient.
 
How old is she and how long have you had her Tricksy? And out of all the info you have given us, what has really CHANGED re her day to day life? When did she start all this stuff? Has she always been the same or have you been able to see it bubbling up underneath? There's so much going on there that I think you need to break it down into smaller chunks and address each one at a time and get it sorted, then think of the next. For example, what happened over her cancer treatment? Was she box rested for ages? How did she cope with it all? Has it left her vision impaired at all? And the thing with your friend coming down and your horse settled then when he left she played up tells me that you and she don't have the relationship you need at the moment. Whether she's taking the P or genuinely afraid of something you will have to do some detective work on.

I think to look for a calmer to work "magic" and change your horse is far too simplistic. At best, it would be covering things up rather than resolving them. If it were me I'd get some expert advice as soon as possible. Good luck x
 
Thanks for the replies guys....to answer a few questions.....

Firstly she is 16 and I've had her for 3 years. The only thing that has really changed is my friends horse dying. She started the nappyness a month or so ago, just after her cancer op I think. Her op was just a day stay at the horspital and she was living out again straight away. As far as we know she has no vision impairment at all. She coped with the op well and didn't seem stress about the aftercare, in fact I would say that she was closer to me then than ever before.

When my friend came down on Friday she didn't really settle, I just had another pair of hands to hold onto her while we tacked her up. She was still totally wired when we left the yard, she tried to go up with me a couple of times when I first got on. I totally agree about our relationship at the moment, I have no idea what has happened but I do feel that we have taken a few steps back.

She has always been quite an uptight horse, very unpredictable but on the whole pretty good, just quirky.

I think that I'll need to get the soil sample done to see if it does point to a magnesium deficiency. I'm also getting her back checked this week and if there is no improvement then I think that I'll get the vet out to check her over.
 
She has got a friend in the field next to her and they groom each other over the fence and she has a pony in the field the other side of her. She isn't short of company, she hates being taken away from them!
 
I read the whole post. It took me hours.
grin.gif

If she were mine, I'd turn her out with more than one horse - the more the merrier. That way, when other owners take theirs away to ride them, she'll still have company and not feel vulnerable. And it'll stop her frantically bonding with just one horse - at the moment she feels it's the end of the world if she is separated from them.
Work wise - I'd be tempted to catch her, just to give her a fuss and feed - to try to give her pleasant associations. Don't keep her away from her buddies at first - but gradually extend the time...by maybe taking her in hand grazing or something she wants to do.
I'd cut back her hard feed - give her as much forage as possible, and at the moment an all purpose, general supplement to ensure you are covering all possible deficiencies. A blood test may help identify any problems.
I'd also note when she is in season - and perhaps score her behaviour out of 10 each day - 10 being angelic, 0 being daemonic...that way you might identify a pattern linked to her seasons.
If it is related to her cycle you can try a few different thing, starting with the herbal supplements for mares, through Regumate (with vet obviously) and beyond, so all is not lost.
Riding wise - there is no point scaring yourself silly; your mare sounds insecure and frightened rather than p1ss taking to me (and her eye problems may have affected her vision and thus confidence, and also proved a traumatic experience) so I don't think shouting/riding when she is having a real stressy moment is a good idea for either of you.
Instead - maybe lunge her briefly, and make a big fuss of her, or do some in-hand schooling or pole work - set tiny targets, but achieve them. Don't overface yourselves.
It might also be worth looking into NLP or similar positive thinking programmes for you - there are lots of useful books to give you mental exercises - Jane Savoie wrote a few, but there are many more - this will help you gain confidence, as will going for lessons on a schoolmaster, if you can.
Last point - make sure she is warm enough in the field - cold horses faff around to get warm.
Hope this novel-length answer helps.
S
grin.gif
 
She has been through a lot with the operation and her friend dying and from what I can tell her behaviour has started after this.

She is lucky that you are doing all the right things and for a temporary period a calmer would be a good idea until you re-establish your bond again.

I found Magic - NAF worked well for my horse when he was on box rest. It took the edge of him especially when he had his exercise in hand.

Another one a friend uses is by feedmark, but I cannot remember the name, I can see the tub in my mind, but not the name - sorry Steady up, thats what it is called.

It takes about 2 weeks to get into the system (thats how long it took my horse) and you can start doing work in hand and grooming her etc to build up your bond again.
 
I used Horse Health's Cro Mag calmer for my gelding when he was on box rest following hock surgery. I do think it worked. It does take a while to get into the system but after a while he seemed a lot more chilled out and even when I had to hand walk (arrrggghhh) he was a bit easier to handle than I had anticipated.
 
I think the horse is seeing herself as the leader, lots of groundwork, lunging longreining etc, bring her in and leave her in so she gets used to coming away from the others, she knows you are scared and is taking advantage. I dont think any kind of supplement is going to make a difference, she needs a good routine which she can understand.
 
She sounds so similar to my mare.... My mare can be the easiest horse in the world and then a small thing will set her off and she'll be a right pain in the a*** for weeks. Somtimes with mine I feel like our bond is unbreakable and then other times I feel like im nothing to her.
Firstly I think your doing really well with her and just remember all the good times you have had. Secondly I use Magic on my mare and I do find it helps with periods of stress and worry although it wont cure everything, it may just take the edge off her. Thirdly, I think it must have really really upset her seeing her friend dead. Mares are sooooooo sensitive and im sure she picked up on the fact that something was seriously wrong and its left her feeling really insecure. Horses rely on their herds to keep them safe so what does a dead horse say to them? That something is wrong and that they are all in danger.
It proably feels like your usless to her right now but I bet she needs you more than ever. Just keep doing what your doing, I would try and bring her in the same time each day to brush, feed and ride. A routine will give her back some security. Be firm with her but be kind, shes sounds like shes upset but shes not being horrible to you and a pain on purpose. Also do what she likes to do, if she likes hacking with other horses take her out lots with other horses, if she settles when your having your lessons, then teaching her some new things in the school will take her mind off whats worrying her.
I would also consider putting her out with a group of several horses like the post above, I think thats a good idea and will give her some security.
Im sure in a couple of weeks she'll be back to herself again
smile.gif
.
Dont give up on her though, it sounds like your doing such a good job.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I read the whole post. It took me hours.
grin.gif

If she were mine, I'd turn her out with more than one horse - the more the merrier. That way, when other owners take theirs away to ride them, she'll still have company and not feel vulnerable. And it'll stop her frantically bonding with just one horse - at the moment she feels it's the end of the world if she is separated from them.
Work wise - I'd be tempted to catch her, just to give her a fuss and feed - to try to give her pleasant associations. Don't keep her away from her buddies at first - but gradually extend the time...by maybe taking her in hand grazing or something she wants to do.
I'd cut back her hard feed - give her as much forage as possible, and at the moment an all purpose, general supplement to ensure you are covering all possible deficiencies. A blood test may help identify any problems.
I'd also note when she is in season - and perhaps score her behaviour out of 10 each day - 10 being angelic, 0 being daemonic...that way you might identify a pattern linked to her seasons.
If it is related to her cycle you can try a few different thing, starting with the herbal supplements for mares, through Regumate (with vet obviously) and beyond, so all is not lost.
Riding wise - there is no point scaring yourself silly; your mare sounds insecure and frightened rather than p1ss taking to me (and her eye problems may have affected her vision and thus confidence, and also proved a traumatic experience) so I don't think shouting/riding when she is having a real stressy moment is a good idea for either of you.
Instead - maybe lunge her briefly, and make a big fuss of her, or do some in-hand schooling or pole work - set tiny targets, but achieve them. Don't overface yourselves.
It might also be worth looking into NLP or similar positive thinking programmes for you - there are lots of useful books to give you mental exercises - Jane Savoie wrote a few, but there are many more - this will help you gain confidence, as will going for lessons on a schoolmaster, if you can.
Last point - make sure she is warm enough in the field - cold horses faff around to get warm.
Hope this novel-length answer helps.
S
grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for your indepth reply and sorry it took so long to read it all!!!

Unfortunatley she can't be turned out with any othet horses at the moment, we are on a very small yard, only 4 horses including the new one. She does not like the pony very much and K who is her boyfriend is being wrapped in cotton wool at the moment as his owner is the guy who has just lost his mare. I did mention putting them in together but he was, understandably not keen, as he is worried that they may have a set too and K will get injured.

I agree with the routine and I spent some time with her this morning just making a fuss of her in the field and letting her come to me. She made my morning when she called to me when I was poo picking the field next to hers
grin.gif
She is not on any hard feed at all in the summer, she just has grass. I got down nice and early this afternoon and brought her in. She was not hard to catch and just came to me. Her boyfriend was already down in the corale and she was calm and relaxed going down there. She did eye up the new horse as we went past but a few polos, pats and reasurring words were all that was needed. She was chilled and relaxed in the corale and was happy to stand perfectly still, no pulling back or terrified eyes. Now whether this is due to K being down there or me being more relaxed today I don't know.....we'll find out tomorrow afternoon when I bring her in, hopefully to be on her own for a short while.

We did ride out today, with K and she was a sweetie, my old Cropi again and we had probably our best ever canter out, relaxed and calm. I will def keep an eye on her seasons and make a note of her moods so that I can evaluate if she is suffering with equine pmt
wink.gif


Is NLP the tapping relaxation technique?? I do get tense and do have confidence issues with her, when she is good I'm really confident, when she plays up it totally goes out of the window and I doubt my abilities immediatley. I always do deep breathing if I feel myself getting tense and try and breathe away the stress.....always open to try something else though

Another good point re the rugging, I do tend to leave her naked if I can and it has been a bit nippy at times

Thanks again for your reply, it'll probably take you an age to read this!!!

Tricksy xx
 
[ QUOTE ]
She has been through a lot with the operation and her friend dying and from what I can tell her behaviour has started after this.

She is lucky that you are doing all the right things and for a temporary period a calmer would be a good idea until you re-establish your bond again.

I found Magic - NAF worked well for my horse when he was on box rest. It took the edge of him especially when he had his exercise in hand.

Another one a friend uses is by feedmark, but I cannot remember the name, I can see the tub in my mind, but not the name - sorry Steady up, thats what it is called.

It takes about 2 weeks to get into the system (thats how long it took my horse) and you can start doing work in hand and grooming her etc to build up your bond again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone else recommended Magic to me today, I'll have a look at it tomorrow, I've got to go to the tack shop. I am hoping that today we have made bit steps to re-establishing our bond, she was as good as gold today
grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
I used Horse Health's Cro Mag calmer for my gelding when he was on box rest following hock surgery. I do think it worked. It does take a while to get into the system but after a while he seemed a lot more chilled out and even when I had to hand walk (arrrggghhh) he was a bit easier to handle than I had anticipated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you carried on using the calmer?? There are so many options with them. I am wondering if I should get a soil sample done and a blood test done on her before I start giving her supplements?? maybe rule out deficiencies first??
 
[ QUOTE ]
I think the horse is seeing herself as the leader, lots of groundwork, lunging longreining etc, bring her in and leave her in so she gets used to coming away from the others, she knows you are scared and is taking advantage. I dont think any kind of supplement is going to make a difference, she needs a good routine which she can understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said to S above I do think that the routine is paramount and I am hoping that today was the first step towards this. The only time she showed an signs of tension was taking her back to her field past the new horse. Bringing her in each day will ensure that she gets used to the new mare being there sooner rather than later
grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
She sounds so similar to my mare.... My mare can be the easiest horse in the world and then a small thing will set her off and she'll be a right pain in the a*** for weeks. Somtimes with mine I feel like our bond is unbreakable and then other times I feel like im nothing to her.
Firstly I think your doing really well with her and just remember all the good times you have had. Secondly I use Magic on my mare and I do find it helps with periods of stress and worry although it wont cure everything, it may just take the edge off her. Thirdly, I think it must have really really upset her seeing her friend dead. Mares are sooooooo sensitive and im sure she picked up on the fact that something was seriously wrong and its left her feeling really insecure. Horses rely on their herds to keep them safe so what does a dead horse say to them? That something is wrong and that they are all in danger.
It proably feels like your usless to her right now but I bet she needs you more than ever. Just keep doing what your doing, I would try and bring her in the same time each day to brush, feed and ride. A routine will give her back some security. Be firm with her but be kind, shes sounds like shes upset but shes not being horrible to you and a pain on purpose. Also do what she likes to do, if she likes hacking with other horses take her out lots with other horses, if she settles when your having your lessons, then teaching her some new things in the school will take her mind off whats worrying her.
I would also consider putting her out with a group of several horses like the post above, I think thats a good idea and will give her some security.
Im sure in a couple of weeks she'll be back to herself again
smile.gif
.
Dont give up on her though, it sounds like your doing such a good job.

[/ QUOTE ]

How true is what you said!! Normally I feel that she does need me and she more often than not winnys to me when I arrive and follows me to the gate when I leave. On friday she certainly didn't need or want me at all
frown.gif
and that in itself upsets me no end.

I agree that she must of been terribly upset to see S dead in the field, she was only 20 ft from her and all of the horses were huddled together where all of the field meet in the centre. This sounds very callous but we were due to go to a show that day and although I didn't want to go, A insisted that I went, he was worried that our day was going to be spoilt and he was upset that I was cancelling our outing. So Cropi walked almost past his mare to the corale and then when she came back the mare was gone, maybe that has something to do with it too. Its interesting the you have had good results with Magic too. Did you have any bloods done or did you decide to try it and see what happened???

You have said some really lovely things to me and its made me well up, it really does sound like you understand exactly what I'm going through
crazy.gif
She was happy today with K and was her normal self again. If she is upset again on her own tomorrow then I can bring K in and see if she calms or just arrange with K's owner that I get there half an hour or so before him so that she can be on her own in the corale but not for a long time.....

She certainly loved me again today and I left with a big grin on my face
grin.gif


Thanks again for your very kind words

Tricksy xx
 
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