Behavioural advice needed please!

[millymoose]

All feedback appreciated to know if I'm right or wrong!

We've just bought a 9 year old Irish sport horse gelding from a dealer (yes, I know - risky, caveat emptor, bargepole etc etc, but hubby and I both rode him there, jumped him and hacked him and he was our perfect horse).......

He's arrived in our yard following a 6 hour journey and he's not the same horse at all. OK, so I understand that he could have been doped by the dealer, he's also had a long journey and change of routine, but he is very difficult, fidgety in the stable - he reared and back kicked yesterday, won't stand still when tied, I couldn't brush his head without twitching him, he tried to nip me and to cap it all, when hubby rode him on his own, he nearly bucked him off. He was sold to us as suitable for a nervous rider (me!) but for now, there's no way I will get on board!

This is what I feel we need to do, (other than send him back to the dealer under the warranty, along with a video of his behaviour, which will be costly in terms of our time and transport); I would really appreciate other input!

- He is fed two small feeds of rolled barley, sugar beet, vits and mins and a slug of oil and has ad lib hay. I have just bought two different calmers to try.

- He is going to be turned out 24/7 with another gelding and not stabled at all.

-I am planning to walk him in hand, groom, get to know him so that he starts to trust me - a bit of a challenge when he won't stand still when I just want to give him a correction but realise that this isn't the best course of action 2 days after his arrival. I feel that he is testing me!

- I will have his back checked

- He will hack out in company in two days to see if this changes the bucking.

Any feedback would be much appreciated as this is supposed to be my horse of a lifetime and I really want the horse I know he can be to come back!

 

[LouS]

How long have you had him? If he's just arrived today I'd imagine he's quite unsettled and would give him a week to settle in, however I do ride horses the day they arrive and expect them to behave, if he's suitable for a nervous rider I wouldn't expect him to buck someone off in a new environment or not. Its hard for me to judge at all without seeing his behaviour and seeing how you are handling him, as a nervous handler will often make a nervous horse.

If he doesn't settle I'd just send him back now, dealer should come and pick him up/arrange transport. You didn't buy him as a project did you so I really would send him back.

 

[millymoose]

No, he was bought as a schoolmaster and I am experienced -only nervous because of a fall last year. I think thought that he should have chance to settle in and he may be tight in his back because of the journey 2 days ago.

 

[LouS]

Did you have him vetted?

There's a hundred things that could be making him stressy/upset, I'd want him fully looked over by a very good physio/chiro, not just his back. What about your tack etc? I'd start doing some groundwork with him, get yourself a rope halter and get his feet moving, shoulders over, backwards, forwards, quarters over and make him stand in his own space, he is quite possibly trying it on if he's been used to a professional/dealing yard.

Have you called the dealer and told them what's going on, a good one will be more than happy to try their best to help/advise you.

 

[LaurenBay]

Did you have him vetted? if yes, Did you use your own vet or theirs?

 

[Goldenstar]

Did you see the horse being groomed when you viewed it . Some horses are very unsettled by moving some do not care.
As for the bucking maybe and I mean maybe he had not been worked since you agreed to buy him I know from experiance that some dealers once a horse is sold don't work them or turn them out for fear of silly accidents and because they are usually short of time, but the sensible ones produce them to be tried well worked.
It's easiest to return him but at the very least you must ring the dealer at once and tell them what has happened.

 

[Goldenstar]

Unless he is very thin stop all hard food and just give hay until you are on top of this.

 

[Tickles]

All feedback appreciated to know if I'm right or wrong!
...
I couldn't brush his head without twitching him...

As others have said get all checks done but additionally I'd leave off the grooming if you're going to twitch him to do it!

In terms of creating a bond hurting him enough that his body takes over and releases the 'happy pills' naturally isn't going to help. :-(

Sounds as though he is feeling sensitive to touch all round... you want to make it positive for him.

Can you check what he was fed at dealers? Some horses get very sensitive to certain cerials. He may not need the hard feed if out 24/7 with hay & suppliments.

ETS: some horses are slower than others to get used to being touched, espec aroudn the head, by new people. Depending on temperament and history it can be for very good reasons!

 

[Spring Feather]

He's arrived in our yard following a 6 hour journey and he's not the same horse at all. OK, so I understand that he could have been doped by the dealer, he's also had a long journey and change of routine, but he is very difficult, fidgety in the stable - he reared and back kicked yesterday, won't stand still when tied, I couldn't brush his head without twitching him, he tried to nip me and to cap it all, when hubby rode him on his own, he nearly bucked him off.

God I feel sorry for this horse He's been through quite the ordeal by the sounds of things. If he were mine I'd turn him out, leave him be for a few days/a week, and only do the "getting to know him" thing in the field. I think he's been rushed, you've only had him 2 days, give him a chance poor guy.

 

[be positive]

Contact the dealer immediately for his opinion, if he is good he will help and advise and should offer to take the horse back. Once you have contacted him you can then try and make changes to help the horse settle but the sooner you make a complaint the better if you do need to return him otherwise they can just say it is the way you are caring for him.
A true schoolmaster should be used to changes in his life and not be overly stressed by moving, the barley you are feeding may not be helping but should not be the cause of everything.
If the dealer is unhelpful and you had the horse vetted it would be an idea to contact your vet for his opinion on how he was when he vetted him, he will also have the blood which can be tested if required.

 

[BigRed]

I would like to add that barley is quite an unusual thing to feed a horse and many horses can be sensitive to it, causing them to be itchy. If you want to give him a bucket food, just give him some hifi instead of the grain. The sugar beet shouldn't be causing any problems, also I'd stop twitching him to brush his face. a clean face is not that important at this stage of the game. I'd tell the dealer and I'd try to relax and get him into a routine, with plenty of time in the field to begin with.

 

[stargirl88]

I would not give in just yet - when I moved my mare, even though she knew me well she was a total PIG when I moved yards for a good few weeks. Be consistent with you handling, create a routine that you can do every day and see if he settles down.

 

[YasandCrystal]

You have had him 2 days - he endured a 6 hr journey - he has likely only been with the dealer for a short time. Don't be surprised he's a bit stressed. Crikey I would give him a week to settle and to get to know you and vice versa. Why are you feeding rolled barley?

My advice would be just feed him hay and maybe a small scoop (soaked) of Fast Fibre to put his vit and minerals in. Let him get used to a routine and maybe lunge him in a few days time and handle him on the ground.

I hope he settles and you have nothing to worry about

 

[[59668]]

Was the dealer in Kent?

 

[Tammytoo]

First, cut out the feeds. He doesn't need extra energy and if he needs to gain weight ad lib forage, i.e. hay, grass is the way to go. 24/7 turnout is best.

Second, don't twitch him! If you're trying to convince him you mean him no harm, that is not the way to go. He needs to learn to trust you and get to know you and that takes time on both sides.

Put yourself in his place. He's been the equivalent of kidnapped. Put in a strange lorry/trailer, arrived at a strange place, put in a strange stable, a stranger comes in and tries to attack his face with a brush and because he's afraid and doesn't know them he resists,so they tie his his nose up! Before he can settle in his surroundings and work out who is in charge of him off he goes on a ride with a stranger and maybe the saddle feels strange so he does the only thing he can to attract attention and he bucks.

He has to know you are on his side, that you are not going to use force against him but you will listen to what he is trying to tell you. You don't need to be soft & soppy with him, just fair and consistent.

I think your idea of doing groundwork with him is good. Are there any Intelligent Horsemanship instructors in your area - they are very helpful in this respect and can teach you to recognise what your horse is trying to tell you.

Good luck!

 

[millymoose]

Thank you for all the advice so far.

I really like the horse and don't want to give in. I really believe that underneath this bolshy, frightened exterior, there is a schoolmaster - we just need to bring it back out of him.

He has not yet been vetted as I didn't want to use the dealer's vets and we live 6 hours away and have a good vet and want to use her so he is due to be vetted by on Monday. If he has been doped, will this still show in blood tests?

I have not yet contacted the dealer as I think the horse needs to settle for a few more days - I would understand the dealer asking us to keep him for a little longer.

We are not looking to buy a plod - I am experienced but nervous as I had a nasty fall from a youngster who continually bucked me off last year, so I want something forward going but safe and sane in his mind. This is what we told the dealer and what we thought we'd ridden and subsequently bought.

 

[millymoose]

Kent - yes.

 

[be positive]

You have bought him and presumably paid for him without a vetting, does the dealer know that he is being vetted on Monday and will he take him back if he fails, not many would do things this way round so the dealer must really trust this horse is really genuine, or , and dont take this the wrong way, think you are mugs that will not get it vetted and fall in love with it anyway so not wish to send it back.
Hopefully all will be ok he will settle in and be everything you are looking for.

 

[goodtimes]

I have had my new boy for 5 months now and he was a right bargy bugger when he first came home, he was scared of everything.
I'm experienced in that I have owned horses all my life, but this one has took a long time to settle - we are still getting to know each other.

I took my boy off all hard feed (he was fat anyway) and spent a lot of time on ground work - moving him over, backwards, forwards, moving away from him etc. Every day, 3 or 4 times a day - in his stable, in the school, around the yard.

My last horse settled the same day and it was as if he had lived with me all his life.

They are all different.

 

[[59668]]

Hmm. Have pm'd you!

 

[Elsbells]

I would not give in just yet - when I moved my mare, even though she knew me well she was a total PIG when I moved yards for a good few weeks. Be consistent with you handling, create a routine that you can do every day and see if he settles down.

This^ to a T!

 

[Tiffany]

Sorry to hear you are having problems. Did you buy him from a reputable dealer & have him vetted by your vet? Some horses need time yo settle &

 

[SusieT]

I'm one to say they should be normal from day one in terms of same as if they're at a show if a schoolmaster. However, it sounds like you may be being abrupt in your handling (wanting him to stand still to be 'corrected' and twitching him etc) and this can very rapidly, within hours lead to a deterioration of a horses behaviour. I would cut hard feed out. Turn him out as you say. Bring him in twice a day and groom the bits that don't stress him out. I am one for working away with him if he's not in pain-a couple of long hacks should ensure he is not feeling too fresh.

 

[Natch]

Did he come with tack... the same tack you tried him in? Is he on the same feed (which I would cut out)? Was he at all head shy when you tried him?

If I may be so bold from behind my computer screen it concerns me that if you are prepared to twitch a horse you've only had for two days just to groom his head, what else are you doing in your management of this horse?

 

[mightymammoth]

My boy was a nightmare for the first few weeks, stubborn and moodys not the word. He wouldnt walk in hand, wouldnt go in his stable/out his stable, walk certain ways, barged me around his stable, kicking out when he was mounted etc etc.
It was a battle of wills and I could almost see him smirk as I was pulling my hair out just trying to walk him around the yard or get on him.
It has taken us about 3 months to develop an "understanding" using a kind, firm and consistant approach and a lot of patience!
He was trying to show me he was boss but I thought if I let him get away with things now he will be a nightmare in the future. I used to tell him (and myself) that he wasn't going to get the better of me and that I wasnt scared of him.
It's not easy but stick with it.

 

[YorksG]

Did he come with tack... the same tack you tried him in? Is he on the same feed (which I would cut out)? Was he at all head shy when you tried him?

If I may be so bold from behind my computer screen it concerns me that if you are prepared to twitch a horse you've only had for two days just to groom his head, what else are you doing in your management of this horse?

Absolutely agree with the above.
I would also ask if you checked with the dealer what he was being fed there? The diet you have chosen is a little unusual. What are his droppings like?
I would also say that the animal had a very long journey and if he was travelled in a wagon when he normally is in a trailer, or in a trailer when he is normally in a waggon he may have had extra muscle pain as he braced himself

 

[Welshie Squisher]

I'm shocked that you felt it so necessary to groom a stressed and unsettled horses face, to the point you needed to twitch him to insist on doing it!
Poor horse
No wonder you're having problems

Best advice I can give is back off, give him a chance and ask yourself honestly how have your actions contributed to his behaviour? Because the face grooming and twitching says it all I'm afraid.
Also phone the dealer to at least keep them in the loop.

I do agree that schoolmasters shouldn't have issues in theory, but you don't add further stress to an already stressed and unsettled horse, you back off.
This is not the same as letting a horse walk all over you, taking the pee should be dealt with swiftly but from everything you say and the fact you've had this horse only 2 days, he's clearly stressed and unsettled and thus requires a little patience.

 

[ISHmad]

So you've travelled a horse for 6 hours, twitched him to have his face groomed when he's so upset and then even though he is clearly so unsettled your husband decides to ride him? Oh and are having him vetted on Monday, not before you bought him? How very odd. You could have found an equine vet down there by recommendation of the Forum. So if he fails the vet the poor soul faces a 6 hour journey back presumably?

You say you are experienced. I'm sorry but your treatment of this horse in the miniscule time he has been with you says anything but experienced to me. Do the right thing for this horse, give him some to work out where his bum and his elbows are and get some professional help.

I'm sorry for the bluntness of my post but I couldn't quite believe what I was reading.

 

[PolarSkye]

Poor horse does sound very stressed and unhappy - and I honestly can't say I blame him tbh. I don't know how long he was with the dealer before you bought him but it probably wasn't long and now he's had a 6-hour journey and is in yet another new place.

At the risk of just repeating what everyone else has said, I would cut out his hard feed, turn him out as much as possible, catch him just to give him a fuss and maybe do a little groundwork with him, STOP grooming him and don't attempt to ride him until you can see that he has settled/is learning to trust you more.

I'm not a feed expert, but I don't think I'd be feeding rolled barley . . . from what I understand some cereals can do some horses' heads in. Perhaps just give him some Speedibeet or something else with no sugar/molasses as a carrier for any supplements he may need - or even just a haynet/hay on the floor so he can have some quiet time in his stable.

If he won't let you groom his face then don't. He needs to trust you first and twitching him and/or forcing him to do something he clearly doesn't want to do, isn't the way to go about it. There is a big difference between being firm/not letting him walk all over you and establishing a relationship based on mutual trust. It's one thing to establish boundaries (correcting unwanted behaviours like barging) and quite another to give the poor guy a break - it won't kill him (or you) to have a mucky face for a week or so.

Kali settled fine when we first brought him home, but then we moved him and he turned into the horse from hell . . . wouldn't let me pick his feet out, wouldn't stand still AT ALL on the yard, was bargey, rearing in his box, was a nightmare in the school both under saddle and on the ground, started spinning and rearing out hacking . . . truth was he was just miserable. The only way horses can communicate their unhappiness is by their behaviour . . . rather than seeing it as something to be controlled, why don't you try listening to him and seeing how you can be his leader. In the wild, the herd boss is NOT the horse who spends all his time making faces at the others and driving them off the best food, but the one who knows where the best grassland is and protects and leads the herd. You need to be that person for him . . .

Oh - and as to the vetting - what happens if he fails? Does he go back? Do you have any recourse with the dealer (I'm assuming money has changed hands at this point)?

I so hope you find a way to sort this out.

P

 

[TicTac]

As others have said and STOP twitching him to brush his head unless you want a sure fire way to make him headshy and bolshy!