Behavioural advice needed please!

[Luci07]

I would not feed barley as a standard feed for a new horse. I think you have been given excellent advice by the board and just to add my pennies worth - you do not say what the horse was fed on before he arrived bit I would bet a lot of money it was not barley! So he also has the sudden changes to his feed to deal with and you are feeding a lot of energy feeds. Back off, let him settle, and take it easy with him. A new horse should always have a quiet introduction to their new life and an attempt to maintain the existing routine in terms if feeding and then amount of work. You change it gradually unless it was something really idiotic. My last horse spent his first 2 days mooching around a paddock as part of his isolation, and then started short hacks.

 

[Peegeesmum]

So you've travelled a horse for 6 hours, twitched him to have his face groomed when he's so upset and then even though he is clearly so unsettled your husband decides to ride him? Oh and are having him vetted on Monday, not before you bought him? How very odd. You could have found an equine vet down there by recommendation of the Forum. So if he fails the vet the poor soul faces a 6 hour journey back presumably?

You say you are experienced. I'm sorry but your treatment of this horse in the miniscule time he has been with you says anything but experienced to me. Do the right thing for this horse, give him some to work out where his bum and his elbows are and get some professional help.

I'm sorry for the bluntness of my post but I couldn't quite believe what I was reading.

I too couldn't believe what I was reading!
I agree with everything in the above post.Poor horse.

 

[Kat]

You say that you are experienced, but even as a new owner/riding school numpty I can see that you have made some schoolboy errors! You need to understand what they are to avoid repeating them and you need to understand how to best salvedge the situation so really sorry if this sounds harsh but it is intended for your own good and the good of the horse.

Vetting
I can't believe you bought from a dealer without an independant vetting. That is quite simply crazy. I understand that you didn't want to use their vet, and to be honest if a dealer asks you to then that is a big red flag that they are dodgy and you shouldn't proceed any further. If you are looking at a horse that is too far away from your own vet then the correct thing to do is find out who the sellers vet is and then approach another equine vet in the area and appoint them to do the vetting. They will have a duty to you just the same as your regular vet. You can get recommendations for a good practice to use on this site. There are good dealers out there, but the good ones would want you to have an idependant vetting for the protection of all parties!

A vetting after the event is just not as good. It doesn't give you the same legal protection, unless perhaps you have a written contract that takes this into account.

Still what is done is done now, you should still get your vet to do a 5stage vetting as if anything is found it might help you either deal with the problem or return the horse. Ask the vet whether there is any point getting bloods at this stage, but be aware that dealers have ways of making a horse quiet without doping. Dehydrating them is a classic, as is underfeeding them.

Handling
I'm also concerned that you have twitched the horse to groom its head. Lots of horses are a bit head shy, particularly the ones who have not long arrived from ireland. Unless there is a medical reason to have access to their head the way to deal with it is kindness and patience not force. You need them to learn to trust you and that you aren't planning to hurt them. Do this by initially only brushing the bits he will let you, and gradually going further up his neck until you get to his head. Work on getting him to let you stroke his face and getting him to lower his head for you.

Buying
Did you see him groomed and handled? Could the dealer touch his head? Was his face clean and his forelock brushed when you saw him? This may help you understand what is going on with him.
Did you take anyone to view him? An instructor or friend? What did they think of him? No matter how experienced you are it is good to have a second opinion from someone who isn't emotionally involved. Have they been to see him since? What does your instructor/yard owner think of him?
Echo what the others have said about tack and about feed.
Did you do any research on this dealer? Did you get a written receipt? Did you get a warrenty? Check the passport matches the horse and get the vet to check the microchip.

Next action

You need to tell the dealer about your concerns, if you want to keep trying with him fine, but tell the dealer that you are having problems and that whilst you will give him a bit more time you may need to return him. The dealer's response will tell you a lot about them!
Ask the dealer about feed and tack and the handling issues are having. See what they say, a good dealer will want to help.
Change his feed, if his weight is ok cut the hard feed out, if he needs weight on get something totally none heating.
If you are determined to keep trying with him get him on a magnesium suppliment (might not help but won't hurt) and get a good experienced instructor out. Preferably someone who has experience of project type horses. I know an instructor who has worked for dealers and broken in horses that have come over from ireland. This is the type of person you want rather than someone used to riding school horses or someone who is mainly a competition rider. If you don't know someone post your area on here and get some good recommendations.
Give your poor horse a chance, lots of turn out, check he is 100% comfortable (back, tack, teeth etc), make friends with him and take it steady and safe.

 

[Circe]

You say that you are experienced, but even as a new owner/riding school numpty I can see that you have made some schoolboy errors! You need to understand what they are to avoid repeating them and you need to understand how to best salvedge the situation so really sorry if this sounds harsh but it is intended for your own good and the good of the horse.

Vetting
I can't believe you bought from a dealer without an independant vetting. That is quite simply crazy. I understand that you didn't want to use their vet, and to be honest if a dealer asks you to then that is a big red flag that they are dodgy and you shouldn't proceed any further. If you are looking at a horse that is too far away from your own vet then the correct thing to do is find out who the sellers vet is and then approach another equine vet in the area and appoint them to do the vetting. They will have a duty to you just the same as your regular vet. You can get recommendations for a good practice to use on this site. There are good dealers out there, but the good ones would want you to have an idependant vetting for the protection of all parties!

A vetting after the event is just not as good. It doesn't give you the same legal protection, unless perhaps you have a written contract that takes this into account.

Still what is done is done now, you should still get your vet to do a 5stage vetting as if anything is found it might help you either deal with the problem or return the horse. Ask the vet whether there is any point getting bloods at this stage, but be aware that dealers have ways of making a horse quiet without doping. Dehydrating them is a classic, as is underfeeding them.

Handling
I'm also concerned that you have twitched the horse to groom its head. Lots of horses are a bit head shy, particularly the ones who have not long arrived from ireland. Unless there is a medical reason to have access to their head the way to deal with it is kindness and patience not force. You need them to learn to trust you and that you aren't planning to hurt them. Do this by initially only brushing the bits he will let you, and gradually going further up his neck until you get to his head. Work on getting him to let you stroke his face and getting him to lower his head for you.

Buying
Did you see him groomed and handled? Could the dealer touch his head? Was his face clean and his forelock brushed when you saw him? This may help you understand what is going on with him.
Did you take anyone to view him? An instructor or friend? What did they think of him? No matter how experienced you are it is good to have a second opinion from someone who isn't emotionally involved. Have they been to see him since? What does your instructor/yard owner think of him?
Echo what the others have said about tack and about feed.
Did you do any research on this dealer? Did you get a written receipt? Did you get a warrenty? Check the passport matches the horse and get the vet to check the microchip.

Next action

You need to tell the dealer about your concerns, if you want to keep trying with him fine, but tell the dealer that you are having problems and that whilst you will give him a bit more time you may need to return him. The dealer's response will tell you a lot about them!
Ask the dealer about feed and tack and the handling issues are having. See what they say, a good dealer will want to help.
Change his feed, if his weight is ok cut the hard feed out, if he needs weight on get something totally none heating.
If you are determined to keep trying with him get him on a magnesium suppliment (might not help but won't hurt) and get a good experienced instructor out. Preferably someone who has experience of project type horses. I know an instructor who has worked for dealers and broken in horses that have come over from ireland. This is the type of person you want rather than someone used to riding school horses or someone who is mainly a competition rider. If you don't know someone post your area on here and get some good recommendations.
Give your poor horse a chance, lots of turn out, check he is 100% comfortable (back, tack, teeth etc), make friends with him and take it steady and safe.

^^ excellent advice ^^
Kx

 

[Mithras]

Two days after a six hour journey, no turnout yet and hard feed including barley, plus twitching? I'm not surprised he doesn't trust you and is behaving a bit nervously! Have it not occurred to you to give him time to settle in and building up to him getting to know you in small stages? tbh I'd be surprised if it wasn't something you were doing. Why would you rush to condemn a horse after only two days and a long journey? Why do people always blame the horse or dealer instead of looking at themselves?

By contrast, I bought an Irish 4 year old from a dealer on Monday. He arrived late on Monday night, after a 5 hour journey, and since then each day all I have done is tied him up, groomed him, got him used to being handled by me, and sitting on him and walking around for 10 minutes. I took a good hour each day just grooming him gently, moving onto his face after doing the bits he liked, de-sensitising him. He has been plaited up and unplaited every day, because its such a good way of getting them used to you moving around them. He has turnout, even though he is in isolation for a week. I would say it was only yesterday, Thursday, that he began to recognise me and be affectionate towards me. And I know that 2 months from now and 2 years from now he will be totally used to me and hopefully we will be a partnership. I wouldn't expect that after 2 days though! I wouldn't dream of twitching him to groom his face when he simply isn't used to me. It seems more designed to make the horse mistrust you if you do that to him after only 2 days! Only if I was very confident would I take him or even an older horse out on a hack in company after 4 days, I'd probably just stick to riding him in the school and doing mini hacks on my own for a couple of weeks til we were used to each other.

As for him being bargy and not standing still when tied up, even schoolmasters can do this. Its up to you to teach him over time to behave in the way you want him to. ie he might be a forward going schoolmaster for someone of reasonable skill, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is an angel on the ground. And fidgetting isn't really that bad, I'd probably ignore it and simply chastise for any nips.

And I'm sorry, but not getting him vetted before he left the dealers is nonsense. Its perfectly possible to ask the vet if they are the vet for that dealer, they are compelled as professionals by their fiduciary duties to answer truthfully. If so, simply use another vet in the area or slightly beyond. It sounds like you wanted to leave yourself a get out clause, however, which suggests to me you weren't that sure in the first place...

Poor horse.

 

[Natch]

Hmm. User has not commented since the criticisms began, and has only been a member since January 2012, only posted 4 posts all on this thread. Either its a troll or we've upset another new person.

If you are genuinely new and not out to cause trouble, I hope you haven't taken offence to mine and other people's replies which have been a bit blunt, but please take on board what has been said if nothing else. HHO (this forum) does have a reputation for not sugar coating things, but personally I would far rather it was that way and help given honestly than a lot of replies agreeing with you but that weren't helpful.

Welcome to HHO, I hope you sort things out with this horse and I hope you stick around and find it useful here.

 

[ofcourseyoucan]

well after a 6 hour journey and a minimum of 4 feeds of barley could well over cook any horse! and vetting after you have bought him is money down the drain. if he fails how can you prove yes PROVE that he wasnt like that before. at least you have heard of buyer beware, cant spell the latin cap..version! please please do not twitch him to brush his head. patience is a virtue, possess it if you can, seldom found in a woman and never in a man.

 

[felixlight]

God I feel sorry for this horse He's been through quite the ordeal by the sounds of things. If he were mine I'd turn him out, leave him be for a few days/a week, and only do the "getting to know him" thing in the field. I think he's been rushed, you've only had him 2 days, give him a chance poor guy.

Agree with all this. Why on earth are you feeding sugar beet? I'd leave off hard feed for now. Mine took weeks to settle and happily accept grooming. I would hold off riding until you have allowed him to adjust for a few more days. Good luck.

 

[Echo Bravo]

ONLY 2 DAYS!! YE GODS!!!!! Send him back get your money back and don't ever buy another horse.

 

[JennBags]

Echo EchoBravo

 

[palomino698]

Well... there's a lot of REALLY sensible advice here. I wonder if you will take it.

Why on earth are you feeding barley? You don't know the horse yet, why would you even think he needs that? If you think he has to have a bucket feed at all, just give HiFi and unmolassed sugar beet (Speedibeet or Kwikbeet) for now.

Why did you expect a 9 year old from a dealer to be a schoolmaster? He's hardly mature yet. The best schoolmasters come word of mouth, usually locally, or by personal recommendation. Private sellers advertising a proper schoolmaster will be happy - delighted - to answer questions and put you in touch with people who can back up what they say. Proper schoolmasters have been out and about, know more than the rider about most situations, and will tolerate rider inadequacy, even if they do want to test the water, so to speak, to see what they can get away with. And it's important to a decent dealer that they sell you a horse that fits all your requirements, your ability, your confidence. Was there nothing closer than 6 hours away?? Odd.

This horse sounds nervous - he may really not be very nice, but most horses are not nasty. Twitching him in order to insist he has his head groomed isn't a great way to teach him that you're really very nice. Of course you have to be the dominant party to a degree, it's asking for trouble to let the horse make the rules, but twitching a stressed new arrival that you want a friendly relationship with...? I'm not sure what your thought process is here.

Did the dealer know you planned to have the horse vetted AFTER you bought it?

I hope this turns into a happy ending for you, your husband and your horse.

 

[MeganLindsx]

Although I agree with some of the replies i disagree in the way that they come across... your probably worried and scared think 'what hae i just brought' .. just don't worry!

Let the horse settle in for a few days/ week, let him get used to you and your husband, don't ride him until you can handle him correctly and you can put your hands around his head and groom him. And have him vetted.

If after you've let him settle down and he still seem tempremental ring up the dealer and try to sort things out

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Agreeing with others, good lord ditch the barley. Why is that everyone's go to cereal? Oats get a bad rap and yet they rate low on the GI index, aka sugar rush in basic terms. Also you are giving him vits and mins, probably the best money can buy as you want to do right for your new horse which is understandable.

Did you get this horse in Ireland? One of the best things about the Irish horse is they can survive on very little. And most of the time do. He was probably given a horse&pony cube of some kind and very little of it. Now he's a bit on hyper drive!

Good quality hay and haylage plus maybe a tiny handful of unmolassed beet pulp with the vits and mins. Make him work for his food. We ALWAYS estimate our horses work load in relation to feeding. I have been guilty too! Now with nobody in real work I'm feeding very little. All the haylage they can eat. I have 2 that exist on a tiny handful of wet grass nuts with a smidgeon of oats for taste with their vits and mins. Seriously I get more in a meal but they would tear the door down otherwise. One is a TB and the other a warmblood/TB cross.

Not implying Irish people are cheap just merely saying enjoy an easy keeper! I have yet to have an ISH that needed a real meal!

After the feed thing gets sorted, revisit!

Terri

 

[mutley75]

if you got him from kent and that is six hours by car, then by transporter on a shared load how long/ far did he really travel???

 

[millymoose]

Thank you for all your advice - harsh or otherwise - it has all been taken on board. (If we were all 100% perfect and knowledgable about every aspect of every horse, there'd be no need for these forums, would there and lots of horses would be far worse off).

I realise that I didn't start out on the right footing with this horse but am pleased to report that day six and things are so much better. He will now accept light grooming everywhere, comes cantering across the field to us for a carrot and is living on ad-lib haylage. Hubby has ridden him lightly in company today and not a foot wrong.

Perhaps a lovely happy ending after all. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[be positive]

The link didnt work for me.
Well done for coming back on with an update, many people disappear after such a harsh introduction, pleased its all going well now and hope he is fine at the vetting.

 

[cobden99]

That sounds a lot more positive, good luck with him. And welcome to the forum

 

[Fellewell]

Thank you for all your advice - harsh or otherwise - it has all been taken on board. (If we were all 100% perfect and knowledgable about every aspect of every horse, there'd be no need for these forums, would there and lots of horses would be far worse off).

I realise that I didn't start out on the right footing with this horse but am pleased to report that day six and things are so much better. He will now accept light grooming everywhere, comes cantering across the field to us for a carrot and is living on ad-lib haylage. Hubby has ridden him lightly in company today and not a foot wrong.

Perhaps a lovely happy ending after all. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

You're a cheeky baggage and not nearly novice enough (like your style)

 

[Tammytoo]

He sounds like he's going to be a lovely horse! It's amazing how forgiving and generous horses are - we ALL make mistakes in handling or riding, but they are generally prepared to allow us a second chance.

Thankyou for giving us an update and good luck with him.

PS Some of the advise may have sounded a bit harsh, but that's because we are all so passionate about horses!

 

[welsh1704]

Give him chance to settle. My boy was golden when i went to see him. Had lessons on him, brought him in from the paddock, turned him out, brushed him etc etc. The lady i brought him off told me the truth 100%. I got him home and it took 8 weeks to return to the boy i saw that first day. Couldnt turn him out, catch him, he ran through me in the stable, he reared when tied up, couldnt tack him up. now he is golden. One thing i would say is dont put yourself at risk.

 

[Echo Bravo]

Def a troll.

 

[muff747]

Unless he is very thin stop all hard food and just give hay until you are on top of this.

Agree with this, especially cut the barley out. My gelding went stupid when I added barley one spring time when he had dropped weight.
If you want to keep him, I'd give him time to settle, out in the field with a sensible gelding.

BUT, if he was sold to you as suitable for a nervous rider - you have been miss sold - he is not "fit for purpose" - no - but NO excuses.

I would send him back because he may settle but has shown you what he is capable of under some circumstances and could revert to this behaviour from time to time. You need a confidence giver, no if's or buts.

If you send him back, I would argue for the dealer to stand the cost because of the unsuitability of the horse, it's not like you have just changed your mind.

JUST READ YOUR UPDATE - I AM PLEASED THINGS HAVE CALMED DOWN. HOPE THIS CONTINUES AND YOU HAVE A GREAT RELATIONSHIP AHEAD.