behavioural issues. When to call it a day?

T

The wife

Well-Known Member
Joined
29 August 2012
Messages
752
Location
It's a working progress
Visit site
I'm currently stuck between a rock and a hard place with a beautiful 5yo tb gelding. He is the epitome of what an old fashioned London Hack should look like. Amazing mover, fantastic conformation, elegant and on his good days a beautifully schooled, well mannered ride. Unfortunately his good days are way outnumbered by his bad days. Today has been a particularly bad day... and I am now in a dilemma as to what to do with him. He is exceptionally sharp - I have been backing for nearly 10years, own a schooling and breaking yard, worked in racing etc and I have never come across an animal that is just so sharp, sensitive and reluctant to work with it's rider. After throwing every trick (bucking, plunging, spinning, threatening to rear etc) he has now decided to run. An hour half later, he gave up the ghost and worked to a relatively decent standard. He's an obstanent little animal, if he decides he doesn't want to do something, no amount of nice nice is going to persuade him otherwise. I have literally tried everything, he went x-country schooling, loved it, next time didn't want to do it, he likes hacking but isn't trustworthy in traffic (he isn't frightened in the slightest but when faced with a car and him spinning and plunging, it isn't safe). I just don't know what to do with him, in my mind I have 2 options, PTS or keep him as a companion - which isn't an option really. I will not sell him or give him away as in the wrong hands he would seriously hurt somebody or frighten them. I can't live with that on my mind.

Bit of background, bought in May as an untouched 4yo straight from the field, backed, did a few parties and turned away in November for the winter. Brought very slowly back into work around February time. He was a nightmare to break, knew every trick in the book, rearing was his trick and he would do it at every opportunity when he didn't want to do something. Eventually he decided it was better to work with us and life for him was easier. He has had all teeth, back, saddle checks, currently on Gastro-kalm incase he has ulcers although other than behaviour has no other symptoms. He is generally a nice person to deal with on the ground, after we got over the initial baby tantrums.

Has anybody any suggestions? For those of you who have come across me before i have a reformed runner who ran from fright but always wanted to work with it's jockey, this one is the opposite, he has only started running because nothing else works and I appreciate it is the fight or flight behaviour but should I put up with this type of behaviour when there are so many horses out there that want to work, are willing to please and nice to deal with?
 
If he's as good as you think he is sell/give him to a GOOD professional showing yard. The top people are used to dealing with really highly strung animals. Just out if curiosity how is he bred?
 
Hmm. Have you done a bute trial? Any chance he could have back pain? In my experience "back people" can't tell serious spinal issues such as KS. If you do a bute trial and he's still a sod then it depends how much you love him - could turn away until more mature or PTS.
 
Nothing constructive to suggest on the more traditional methods, but Jason Webb? I appreciate that you have a great deal of experience, and have also tried every trick in the book, but if he's worth saving, maybe a different mindset before making the big decision.
 
As Hereshoping says I truly understand you know what you are doing but sometimes a fresh pair of eyes can really help. I have a racing background and then worked in a 'problem horse' yard but my mare was something else entirely. I went from charging other people to help them with their horses to doubting my own ability. My YO and instructor both told me to PTS. In desperation really to appease them I got Michael Peace out to her as I rationalised it was still cheaper than disposal costs (and obviously I desperately wanted to keep her) and honestly we've never looked back!
I don't think she'd ever trusted a human but truly she trusts me implicitly now and I've had horses all my life and never had a bond like we have. So so many people told me there were more deserving horses out there but she is amazing and I'm so glad it worked for us.
Not saying there can always be a happy ending but if you think he has something trust your gut. More than happy to talk more if you'd like but don't want to bore everyone to tears rambling on :-)
 
There will be a reason for his behaviour, there always is. Horses do not refuse to work and use evasions to his extent just for the hell of it. Pain makes horses unusually sharp.
 
He is full racing bred tb but never raced or tried. We show regularly against professionals anyway so although I wouldn't class ourselves as well known professional producers, we do pretty well for ourselves so we are pretty well kitted out for the really high strung show animals.

Yes tried him on bute, he was exactly the same. Also tried ACP as a last resort.

After seeing a family member severly ripped off by a Natural Horsemanship trainer who took a lot of money off them many years ago it is not a route I want to take. Yes I know I shouldn't tar all with the same brush but once bitten twice shy.

I have had several pairs of fresh eyes upon him, ranging from our regular dressage trainer, farrier, a very good friend and client of ours. All have come up with various different suggestions and so far we have had negligible results. I really did wish for a good result, I love a happy story @BaileyBones :)

@wagtail, yes I appreciate there is always a reason and very often it is trial and error as to what the reason is, unfortunately I am running out of suggestions as to where to go next. We have tried the bute route to eliminate pain, sedating (which I am not condoning in any way as it can so easily go wrong) we have had all back checks, vets, dentist and saddle done and there isn't a thing physiologically wrong with him that we or anybody else can see. We can only compromise that it is purely behavioural or psychological and unfortunately when an animal is getting to the stage where it is becoming a danger to itself and it's handler what does one do? Carry on looking for answers or call it a day?
 
Last edited:
Wagtail said:
There will be a reason for his behaviour, there always is. Horses do not refuse to work and use evasions to his extent just for the hell of it. Pain makes horses unusually sharp.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with Wagtail. I had a TBxWelshD bought as rising 4 worked we for 18 months but very proud of her food and initially dangerous in the stable. Then by degrees she became unrideable in various situations, initially on the road. Then she became difficult to lead, particularly when coming in for her tea. Eventually we found that she was cereal and sugar intolerant and when we removed these from her diet her behaviour improved. Having said that we could never trust her because we never knew what passers-by had been feeding her and a tiny amount of the forbidden feed affected her but we kept her until she was 24.
 
Bute trials very rarely work IME. Especially with nerve type pain such as that caused by KS. We tried a trial on two horses here that were later found to have the condition. Neither were even the slightest bit better on bute. It also doesn't work with SI issues, gastric pain, foot pain (unless very mild). So please do not rule out pain due to an inconclusive bute trial. I see you have not mentioned vet and full lameness work up and other investigations.
 
do you know the background of the horse - as a foal? I have heard of such behavioural problems for bottle fed/orphaned foals since they are lacking in early matriarchal guidance. How is the horse in company of others in the field? maybe a bit longer to mentally mature when in a group with a strong leading mare could teach him something. Although you might not be tuned in to things alternative, reiki has solved a lot of behavioural issues in some animals we have had.
 
You say he was turned away from Nov - Feb; perhaps try longer?

I would urge you to get professional behaviourist help - your 'fresh eyes' gang are not I'm afraid. Jason Webb by the way does not class himself as NH. Go on, give it a go - you will never know unless you take that leap. The poor lad sounds like he's worth it and you've done so much to help him thus far ….

Good luck with whatever you decide.
 
The wife said:
He is full racing bred tb but never raced or tried. We show regularly against professionals anyway so although I wouldn't class ourselves as well known professional producers, we do pretty well for ourselves so we are pretty well kitted out for the really high strung show animals.

Yes tried him on bute, he was exactly the same. Also tried ACP as a last resort.

After seeing a family member severly ripped off by a Natural Horsemanship trainer who took a lot of money off them many years ago it is not a route I want to take. Yes I know I shouldn't tar all with the same brush but once bitten twice shy.

I have had several pairs of fresh eyes upon him, ranging from our regular dressage trainer, farrier, a very good friend and client of ours. All have come up with various different suggestions and so far we have had negligible results. I really did wish for a good result, I love a happy story @BaileyBones :)

@wagtail, yes I appreciate there is always a reason and very often it is trial and error as to what the reason is, unfortunately I am running out of suggestions as to where to go next. We have tried the bute route to eliminate pain, sedating (which I am not condoning in any way as it can so easily go wrong) we have had all back checks, vets, dentist and saddle done and there isn't a thing physiologically wrong with him that we or anybody else can see. We can only compromise that it is purely behavioural or psychological and unfortunately when an animal is getting to the stage where it is becoming a danger to itself and it's handler what does one do? Carry on looking for answers or call it a day?
Click to expand...


So what are you looking for? Someone to qualify or sanction your decision to PTS, or reasons to go on looking for a treatment/diagnosis? It is all a bit unclear to me
 
This may sound daft but have you ruled out a brain tumour?

I am only asking as although I have not had this experience in horses I have met this sort of unpredictable behaviour twice before, once in a dog and once in a cat. Both were completely unhandleable, wouldn't' allow anyone to touch them even for patting and would run away and hide. They behaved like complete nervous wrecks. The dog became aggressive later on. Neither had ever been harshly treated (full history and breeding known) and both turned out to have brain tumours.

( incidentally we live near a high voltage pylon and I have often wondered if there was a link, especially as the cat was one I bred myself but had to keep because his behaviour meant he couldn't in all fairness be sold as a pet).
 
Was he literally untouched until last May? That means he's done an awful lot in a short time, starting an untouched older horse is much different than a quiet well handled one. He's probably always going to be really sharp, if you like him I'd persevere but maybe accept that he's not going to be that reliable (my old lad is still divvy at 20yo) If you don't want to keep him then maybe pts rather than risk him getting abused by some ego tripper with something to prove.
 
@Wagtail, no I haven't had full lameness work up in that nerve blocks were done but I have an excellent relationship with my vet whom has joked that I can see lameness or a problem where nobody else can. This is not a leg issue. KS had crossed my mind, although IMHO a horse cannot make such a beautiful shape over a jump and work so correctly when he wants to. I appreciate it is very tricky to comprehend and explain issues over a forum but when an animal is throwing such shapes and giving such behaviour with it's ears pricked, looking decidedly happy and relaxed with itself i'm not entirely sure that pain is the cause. He is on Kastro-Kalm in case of ulcers but again he x-country schooled and jumps at times without question and thoroughly enjoys it when he is in the right frame of mind and IMHO ulcer pain would be at it's highest then.

@HappyHooves: yes and no re background. I have a feeling the previous owner wasn't 100% honest when she sold him although I am in touch with his mothers owner and his sister is in livery with another friend of mine. Both mares are very sharp and also from what I have heard bad tempered too but he seems to have taken it to the extreme. I have an inkling before I bought him somebody attempted to back him and made a bad job of it. In my experience a truely untouched horse should not know the tricks he knew while backing - rearing and spinning in an attempt at getting away from lungeing, he accepted the roller and saddle without fuss and knew how to long line and be driven happily from day one. He also has white bandage marks on his legs, when the owner swears blind he has never worn bandages. History as a foal is somewhat standard, weened at 8 months, lived in a field until 4 - whether she attempted to break him is a different matter. I am open to most alternative therapies although reiki is not something I am familar with i'm afraid, although will do a bit of reading :)

@Worldiscomplete: i'll pm you, if you don't mind re Jason Webb.

@QueenBee: No I am not looking for sanction as such that Downing him is the way forward, although my gut is telling me that perhaps he isn't worth the trouble when I have so much time and energy to put into an animal that does want to work with me. Don't get me wrong, I love a challenge and tbf, it is probably this reason that has kept him on my yard for so long as I hate passing the book and haven't yet found one that hasn't wanted to work. It's just a matter of finding the route of the issue but as I said before, when does one stop? He is becoming a danger to himself and his handler when under saddle, it is not a decision that will be taken lightly so I am asking for suggestions, which many have given. One thing is for sure, if he was a livery I would have sent him home a long time ago, i'm not one for taking money of people with problems that will take years to fix.

@adorablealice and Less than Perfect: I hadn't actually thought of brain tumour and it is not something I have knowingly come across before. Would sedatives not dull the problem though? Pretty clued up on the skeletal/physiological system of the horse but not so much the brain and neurological side of things.

@lastchancer (I love your user name): apparently so, although as above i'm not sure previous owner was 100% honest about how little he had done. I agree with you, it does take a lot longer to get an adequate result from a untouched one, however I don't think a year is particularly rushed, each mature differently and we by no means push anything until it is ready but even the most backward and immature animal should be able to trot willingly around a school for a single circuit without too much fuss. When he is in a competition environment he is as good as gold, I have even tried only riding him at competitions and he will work quite sweetly but at this age without work at home he finds it incredibly difficult and I can imagine starts to ache as he wouldn't be that fit. I also agree with you if it comes to it re PTS and somebody wanting to prove something, he is a horse that will get abused and in my desperation I had considered sending him to a proper professional producer but I know he wouldn't be treated very nicely. Don't get me wrong, I have tried giving him a smack - not that I usually advocate this and it made him 10x worse. It's not something I want to go down the route of and as I have said before, in the wrong hands he will frighten or hurt somebody.

Thank you all for your replies, have a few more options to work with now :)may be taking a plunge into the relative unknown from the traditional routes (although I do draw the line at standing on upturned buckets) ;)
 
Here's a thing, after my big lads kissing spines surgery my vet mentioned a lot of TBs have un diagnosed KS that only shows when they come out of training and have to work in an outline. It wouldn't show up on a bute trial as the pain is so intense just a sachet of bute won't mask it...is he worth a back X-ray?
 
I couldn't PTS a 5yo until I had explored every option open to me. Saying you won't go to a NH type trainer because of one bad experience is like saying you won't go to a dressage instructor because they do rollkur!

Has he made any improvement over time? I assume so as he does offer some good work. I agree with a previous poster about maybe this horse with the temperament he has got has done a lot in a short space of time. My 5yo is going out to lessons but hasn't competed yet and hasn't jumped under saddle yet either as he's not ready mentally.

With this horse I would be discussing with the vet, having a few tests done to rule out pain and then giving it a go with some kind of behaviour focused trainer. If that does not work I might think of PTS at that point
 
He is still quite young being 5 some horses cant cope with much mentally at that age, I would be inclined to leave him for a bit let him have a break then try again.

In regards to brain tumours earlier this year a friend was having real problems with her horse, behaviour just slowly got worse over a matter of months, she had vets do numerous tests and lameness work ups but they told her there was nothing wrong with him, then one morning she got to her yard to find him in a trance like state, called the vet they said they thought he had had some sort of stroke he couldnt walk in a straight line and couldnt eat properly, he was on some medication not sure what but he did pick up enough to be taken to the surgery after a few days, they did a scan of his head and told her he had some rare brain tumour so she had him pts, they wanted to do a post mortem as what they had seen was rare, turns out he had a ruptured muscle in the side of his head caused by some sort of trauma not a tumour.
 
Sorry, I haven't had time to read all the replies but this sounds so like my story with my home bred gelding (home bred, so no hidden traumas in his history). Several really difficult attempts to back him (I had bred and broken/ridden away at least 6 really useful horses) and a few clinics with brilliant horsemen and I was no further forward, until one day after he had finally and carefully been backed I got on him, reached down to put my foot in the offside stirrup and he spooked at the touch. That ain't normal, no horse will waste that amount of energy on something he should have learned to cope with, and so began the investigation. Which resulted in the realisation that my ground is low on magnesium and this is a symptom of mg deficiency. All my lot are now fed MagOx routinely
I'm just sharing the experience, not saying yours has the same deficiency but if you keep coming back to two concepts (the horse as a species always wants to do what we ask of him as long as he can and he understands what we are asking, and no prey animal will waste a huge amount of energy without good reason) you might begin to realise there are several underlying causes, it is just a question of finding it. Your horse is clearly not a relaxed happy animal, so don't rule out PTS, but maybe you can investigate his physiology first.
Mine is now perfectly ridable, in fact rather too laid back if I am honest. And I did get a lot of people who were sure it was me - older hobby rider, ergo nervous rider who upsets horses (!) - but they forgot the experience I had built on, and with that experience comes the realisation that there is always an answer, it's just finding it.
 
I think it may be very significant that he behaves well away from home. My own take on that would be that the horse is in pain somewhere, but if you give him enough distraction, he can forget about it. It also fits with the xc schooling. The first time it was new and distracting.

My own horse has been operated on for kissing spines. I never jumped him ridden but he used to make a fantastic shape over a fence on the lunge. For two years he was a very spooky horse who produced some beautiful work, sometimes scoring above seventy and sometimes refusing to go near some of the letters.

If you have a couple of hundred to spare, I would have his back x rayed to rule it out.
 
When a horse CAN behave well - and then behaves badly - it's unlikely to be kissing spines . Either it's breeding (there are a few racing bred TBs out there who shouldn't be bred from!), a brain tumour, or some mishandling he had before you got him.

If it's a brain tumour, the bad behaviour will become more frequent and severe over time. It can take a while - one ofthe top showjumpers in Oz years ago had an incredibly bad reputation for sometimes bolting in the middle of a round. He'd jump out of the ring, leave the showground and bolt down a road - his regular rider picked a place to bail out when he did it! But he was good enough on his day to win anything. He finally broke a shoulder and was put down - and he had a full post mortem. Sure enough, a big brain tumour.

A youngster we got to back a couple of years ago was incredibly hard - took months. We found out later there had been a previous attempt - and that, combined with 'hot' breeding - left him with scars!

I think if he was mine I'd probably give him 6 months in the field - then start again from scratch. If behaviour persisted, then PTS!
 
JanetGeorge said:
When a horse CAN behave well - and then behaves badly - it's unlikely to be kissing spines .
Click to expand...


Well it was kissing spines with mine and another one owned by a friend of mine, Janet, so I don't think it's that uncommon. Some days they can tolerate it, some they can't, particularly the TB types.


OP, is he worse in any particular weather? KS horses often seem to be worse when it's cold, and many of them seem to like an exercise blanket even when it's 'too warm' for one.
 
My WB mare was found to have horrendous kissing spines and her behaviour was bad only intermittently. She could work really well, jump, beautiful outline etc. At Newmarket they said she could usually put up with it but then on occasions she just couldn't help herself.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top