behavioural issues. When to call it a day?

[windand rain]

In answer to the real question posed as I can't answer how to cure the behaviour It is time to call it a day when you can no longer cope with the behaviour or afford to keep the horse in a way to minimize its behaviour or if he is so dangerous that he cannot be turned out into a safe environment and given daily essential care. It is never an option in my view to pass it on. Having told a prospective owner that the horse I was going to have PTS reared vertical and insisting she didn't really want it she said I was cruel and she could cope with it said person took on the horse and then blackened my name all over the internet telling lies about how I had duped her. I will never ever let anything but a patent safe horse leave my company again even then I would be dubious. I have a very dangerous little pony dangerous because he hates children and at 12hh if I let him leave me someoe would try and use him as a childs pony which would be entirely possible but if the child went to get him from the field he would kill them so the simple answer is he will stay with me until I can no longer keep him when he will quietly be PTS no ifs or buts

 

[charlie76]

My husbands event horse was always great away from home, well placed BE up to novice level and was always in the top five after dressage, however he was a pain in the backside at times at home, although not all the time.
He would rear, throw his head up, generally be a nightmare on the flat, jumping wise he would jump hollow and be tricky. He was also ( and still is) nasty in the stable.
Because he was always so good to compete we managed him at home but he got worse so we had him checked out, poor horse had kissing spine, sacroiliac issues and had issues in both hind suspensories.
He is now semi retired following operations on his legs and back, he is still a grumpy git but is much happier to ride with his lighter work load.
So with kissing spine etc they can be OK sometimes and bad the next. Adrenaline stooped the symptoms in certain situations.

 

[buddylove]

Not sure whether anyone has already mentioned this but have you had someone out to do a thermal imaging scan. Pretty cheap option that could give you a good indication of where there are areas that need further investigation?

 

[springtime1331]

Although I had my mare fully thermal scanned and they failed to pick up serious kissing spines, spondoloyis and a shocking amount of boney spurs on her stifle. They believed her hocks were the issue, but Newmarket found so much wrong with her top half they never even got to the legs.

 

[Wagtail]

When a horse CAN behave well - and then behaves badly - it's unlikely to be kissing spines .

That is not my experience. My TB had the worst case of KS my vet had ever seen. I had had two vets and two physios look at him and none so much as even suggested his back was sore. He was only xrayed (against my vets advice) because I insisted on it. Nine times out of ten he behaved impeccably. But then without warning he would just 'explode' on the odd occasion. There was absolutely no pattern to his behaviour. He was found to have ten spinal processes touching or fused and had an operation to remove 5 of them. Sadly, the operation was not successful and he is now happily retired. The mare at my yard who also has KS, milder and kept under control with regular chiro, will just refuse to work some days, spooking, spinning, rearing if you push her. Then the next day, especially if you put a stranger on her back, she will perform beautifully. At the minute no one can ride her though and she is due her next chiropractic session next week.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Well it was kissing spines with mine and another one owned by a friend of mine, Janet, so I don't think it's that uncommon. Some days they can tolerate it, some they can't, particularly the TB types.


OP, is he worse in any particular weather? KS horses often seem to be worse when it's cold, and many of them seem to like an exercise blanket even when it's 'too warm' for one.

its interesting isnt it, because my vet would agree with Janet-horses with KS are not able to perform amazingly some times and then be in horrific crippling pain the next. He says in his experience they might be ok for part of a ride, or ok doing a movement once or twice and then explode, but he doesnt think they are able to produce consistane clear rounds or good tests for weeks or months, and then suddenly be in pain again and go down hill performance wise.

adrenalin will not over ride the sudden sharp nerve pain of KS in the same way it can dull neck or back pain or slight lameness (both in my experience and that of my vet).

OP i think you probably owe the horse some nerv blocks to check his legs and back are ok and you could also test for hind gut ulcers. If both are clear then its up to you if you pass him on to someone who fancies a challenge or pts.

 

[paulineh]

Do look at Jason's website http://www.australianhorsetraining.co.uk. He has done wonders with difficult horses.

 

[unicornystar]

I've not long had mine PTS with similar issues, although eventually we did find out kissing spines (although slight) were a real issue. Always a quirky sharp type but I would personally say there IS a reason for his behaviour if he is okish on the ground....

TB's especially, whilst they are sharp, they are generally more sensitive and any little twinge can set of a myriad of behaviours....

You sound like you know your stuff, hence, personally I would PTS or if you can afford have him as a companion......hope it works out whatever you do.

 

[TarrSteps]

I think the conversation about whether or not pain produces a consistent reaction is actually quite a complicated one and involves multiple input. I'm always a bit surprised vets are so keen to say "it can't be x because there isn't y reaction" as both science and experience suggest it's not that simple. I know people with chronic conditions who can be okay one day and not the next, or who can "cope" in some situations and not others - why would it be differnt for horses?

There is also the issue they so much depends on the situation. Frankly, I have made more than a few clinically damaged horses ridable and not found out the extent of the damage until afterwards, when the horse either regressed or changed situations. I know for a fact that one of the trainers suggested has "fixed" horses that then turned out to have physical issues so severe they could not remain in work (or alive). I would hazard every trainer - behavioural or otherwise - has had that experience if they've been at it long enough. I have "successfully" ridden horses with spinal damage, neurological impairement, ulcers, all manner of known "unsoundnesses" (some known at the time, although often not, some treated, some not) and, in fact, know horses that have competed at the highest levels - often erratically or with super careful mangement - that have turned out to have a physical basis for their behaviours. It is quite doable and. I suspect, done a lot more in professional programs than people realise, including the people who are doing it at the time!

Looking back, it was almost standard not that long ago, when our diagnostic options were so much more limited, to just ride the horse and see what happend. If everyone tried their best and it couldn't be ridden successfully, then that was that and people made whatever choice they had to make.

I genuinely do think we can find so much now it's tempting to assume we can find everything. We can't. Some problems are needles in haystacks. Others are innate - I knew a family of "crazy" horses and it was only really apparent if you met them and worked with them as a group - and won't show up at the vets. Some - even most - are multifactoral and even if you find one bit, that may not be the bit that turns it all around.

In the end, much as we don't want to admit it, it still comes down to a personal decision.

I did send a horse like the one described on. It was so beautiful and so athletic and so amazing to ride when it wasn't trying to kill you. The owner and I contacted three pros well known for dealing with difficult horses and with ambitions that outstripped their pocketbooks, and offered them the horse for a nominal fee, first come, first served. They scrambled and one, a mad eventer who did extreme sports in her free time, took the horse on. Initial reports were good and the first competition went very well, but we never saw the horse out competiting after that. I ran into the rider some years later and she told me the story. They'd gone out XC schooling a few times and she'd been blown away by the horse. Then they went out one day and the horse twigged to the job and it set off, jumping everything in its path. Everything. Jumps, wire fences, ditches, hedgerows, roads . . . All with ears pricked, on a mission. She couldn't turn it or even it steer it - it saw a gap in the trees or something that looked like a jump and it was off. Watching her face as she told the story was a study - she had clearly been truly frightened, which was probably a rare experience for her. In the end it jumped into plough and she mangered to crank it around until it galloped to a standstill. She got off and led it back and never got on it again. And then they bred it . . . .but that's another conversation!

It happens. We like to think we are so knowledgeable and powerful, we can solve any problem. But the fact remains that's not true and, anyway, not every problem is worth the potential cost of solving it.

I would say, over all, most of the time people don't do every thing they could do, perhaps out of ego or simply out of weighing the balance. But in the end, it's a personal choice.

 

[Pixxie]

I don't have any real suggestions I'm afraid but just wanted to add onto the KS theories. My old boy was diagnosed with KS which he had long before i bought him. He was the kindest most gentlest boy you could wish to meet, he never exploded, he could work through and round, he could jump, he however couldn't canter properly or for very long this was the only indicator and even then we only found the KS when looking for a totally different problem. I only say this to demonstrate that all horses with KS are not nut cases they can certainly be worse some days than others and every horses reaction is different. please don't rule it out

 

[cptrayes]

its interesting isnt it, because my vet would agree with Janet-horses with KS are not able to perform amazingly some times and then be in horrific crippling pain the next. He says in his experience they might be ok for part of a ride, or ok doing a movement once or twice and then explode, but he doesnt think they are able to produce consistane clear rounds or good tests for weeks or months, and then suddenly be in pain again and go down hill performance wise.

I don't think anyone on here was talking about being OK for weeks or months PS. We're all, I think, talking about being OK some days not others, like the OPs horse.

Also, the performance doesn't have to be 'amazing' and the pain does not have to be 'crippling', it depends on the horse, his ability, his temperament, his stoicism, the weather (I'm serious, not joking) etc, etc.

It does seem from some people's anecdotes on here that the horses disagree with your vet though

I don't really understand why people with misbehaving horses don't bung them in for a couple of hundred quid worth of back x rays. What harm can it do?

Instead, a friend of mine spent 800 on physio a year ago, only to find in the end that her horse had kissing spines so bad that there was no option but to shoot it.

 

[TarrSteps]

Just as a note, KS is not the only thing that goes wrong with horses! Nor is it the only pain that causes behavioural issues. Nor is every horse with a less than perfect spine necessarily in trouble. Would that life was so simple!

 

[amandap]

I don't believe that if a horse is apparently fine one day and not the next we can automatically rule out physical issues. We all have good days and bad days and there's the anecdote of the stone in your shoe, you can put up with it for a while but at some point...

There are so many factors involved including how a rider is on a given day. Neither us or horses are machines.

Difficult decisions op.

 

[amandap]

Just as a note, KS is not the only thing that goes wrong with horses! Nor is it the only pain that causes behavioural issues. Nor is every horse with a less than perfect spine necessarily in trouble. Would that life was so simple!

Very true! Dare I mention ulcers? A 'wired' horse would point me that way first.

 

[cptrayes]

Just as a note, KS is not the only thing that goes wrong with horses! Nor is it the only pain that causes behavioural issues. Nor is every horse with a less than perfect spine necessarily in trouble. Would that life was so simple!

Who said it was?

And by the by, many kissing spines horses have ulcers, and it is those actually causing the behaviour issues.

Unfortunately, Cotts reckon that sixty prevent of them have SI and/or PSD issues as well, and the kissing spines operation won't resolve those horses.

But back to the point, it's pretty simple to the them out, so what's the harm in ruling them out?

 

[Wagtail]

And regarding ulcers, I have found no herbal remedy or supplement that cures them. The only thing is omeprazole. So just because a horse is being fed a supplement to prevent ulcers and it hasn't helped, it does not rule ulcers out.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Just as a note, KS is not the only thing that goes wrong with horses! Nor is it the only pain that causes behavioural issues. Nor is every horse with a less than perfect spine necessarily in trouble. Would that life was so simple!

exactly. being cynical its the issue de jour and even the vet says that he sees horses in for the op that are no different afterwards but in the absense of anything else the op was done anyway. You need to carefully investigate via x ray AND nerve blocks and then riding to see if the KS is actually the real problem as many sound and happy horses shows KS on x ray but no issues arising from them.

Who said it was?

And by the by, many kissing spines horses have ulcers, and it is those actually causing the behaviour issues.

Unfortunately, Cotts reckon that sixty prevent of them have SI and/or PSD issues as well, and the kissing spines operation won't resolve those horses.

But back to the point, it's pretty simple to the them out, so what's the harm in ruling them out?

my vet actually said the same re SI/PTSD which is why its also important to nerve block these areas as part of the general work up to try and see if its a knock on issue, a real KS issue or not physical at all.

if a horse nerve blocks and shows zero improvement to feet, suspensories, hocks or back, you have covered a lot of bases and confirmed a lot of things one way or the other.

a diff vet (who is also a close friend) confirmed that she sees horses day in and day out *misbehaving*with no physical issue other than poor management or poor riding but if the owner wants it investigating, that they must do and equally they see horses where they cannot fathom the issue at all.
I think it might be in Denmark(dont quote me i cant remember), where suspected KS horses are being sent to pro riders to see if it resolves with more experienced management before the insurance Co will agree to the op.

its all a very grey area and at the end of the day we do what our head heart and wallet allows us to...........if they could talk it would be som much easier.

 

[TarrSteps]

Who said it was?

And by the by, y kissing spines horses have ulcers, and it is those actually causing the behaviour issues.

Unfortunately, Cotts reckon that sixty prevent of them have SI and/or PSD issues as well, and the kissing spines operation won't resolve those horses.

But back to the point, it's pretty simple to the them out, so what's the harm in ruling them out?

No need to take offence!

You are right, it's an easy test so why not? But there are problems that aren't so easy to find and not finding them doesn't mean they aren't there. Even more advanced imaging isn't failsafe. Just because you don't know WHY a horse is uncomfortable doesn't mean it isn't.

And, conversely, I don't believe every horse with questionable X-rays is necessarily functionally unsound. Yes, of course, get the tests done. But just because someone has had x experience doesn't mean you're necessarily having that exact one too.

 

[Flame_]

If you sent the horse for diagnostics the vets would find something, if you sent most sound, straightforward horses for full investigations etc, they'd find something. Whatever they find isn't necessarily the reason the horse is a pita, some horses are just a pita.

OP if you don't like working with the horse and its not a good, appealing prospect to sell on, why not just pts?

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

If you sent the horse for diagnostics the vets would find something, if you sent most sound, straightforward horses for full investigations etc, they'd find something. Whatever they find isn't necessarily the reason the horse is a pita, some horses are just a pita.

OP if you don't like working with the horse and its not a good, appealing prospect to sell on, why not just pts?

yup,vet also said that! if you loo hard enough you can find something wrong with any horse!

 

[chestnut cob]

I don't really understand why people with misbehaving horses don't bung them in for a couple of hundred quid worth of back x rays. What harm can it do?

Instead, a friend of mine spent 800 on physio a year ago, only to find in the end that her horse had kissing spines so bad that there was no option but to shoot it.

Why? Because people trust the professionals they are using, that's why. If they are using a physio who tells them the horse needs to do raised poles, or lunge in a pessoa, etc, they follow that advice.

Re your friend, I'd suggest she gets a different physio. I would ask why she didn't question the physio at all, and was happy to spend that sort of money without improvement? And wasn't the physio talking to her vet? I use a chartered equine physio who will only see your horse when she has spoken to the vet, and if she has to see the horse for a particular problem more than twice in a particular space of time, she will refuse to see it again and tell you to call the vet. My last horse developed a back problem. Physio came out, worked on him, prescribed a work regime for 6 weeks and discussed the issues with my vet. She came back after 6 weeks and told me during the initial appointment that if there was no improvement, the horse needed to see the vet not have more physio. When she came back out, the horse had really progressed and was far better, so she just had a second discussion with the vet and we continued with the work regime.

I would not expect a physio to continue treating my horse if it continued to exhibit problems, and not recommend getting the vet, if they were treating for the same issue every time. I also know plenty of good physio's who will tell you that they can't make a diagnosis, but I have treated this horse (say) twice in 6 weeks, seen little or no improvement so I suggest you make an appt with your vet for a lameness work up and, eg, back X-rays.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I think you have already made up your mind tbh

Very constructive.

 

[exmoorponyprincess1]

I would go for a back x-ray to eliminate both KS and also bony spurs (growths) on the vertebrae which press into the nerves...one of our Exmoors had these bony spurs and the vet said it was very common in TBs.

 

[cptrayes]

No need to take offence!

I didn't.

 

[little_critter]

Try Michael Peace. A lovely man and worth every penny.

 

[Equi]

Not read all the posts. But have you started eliminating all tack? Maybe he doesn't like bits. Maybe he doesn't like nose bands. Maybe the girth is pinching. Silly things.

Other than that try a Irish hunter, they'll take anything lol

 

[ester]

You are very right tarrsteps in that not everything wrong is findable - and then that you might find something wrong that isn't actually the cause of the problem. I think the trouble is we are always desperate for a diagnosis so that we can fix them but it isn't always possible to do either.

 

[el_Snowflakes]

OP you sound like someone who is experienced in working with horses & I don't really have any advice to offer other than what's already been said/tried. A friend of mine had a horse PTS because of behavioural issues. Not an easy thing to do but sounds like you are running low on options. Best wishes, must be tough.

 

[mischamoo]

@Wagtail, no I haven't had full lameness work up in that nerve blocks were done but I have an excellent relationship with my vet whom has joked that I can see lameness or a problem where nobody else can. This is not a leg issue. KS had crossed my mind, although IMHO a horse cannot make such a beautiful shape over a jump and work so correctly when he wants to. I appreciate it is very tricky to comprehend and explain issues over a forum but when an animal is throwing such shapes and giving such behaviour with it's ears pricked, looking decidedly happy and relaxed with itself i'm not entirely sure that pain is the cause.

My exracing TB mare also could work correctly and jump lovely and scopey over a fence when she wanted too, she also displayed moments of sharpness like you're describing which started occuring more than than the good moments - £400 later for xrays - she was diagnosed with KS.
I honestly believe a horse has pain when they display behaviour like this.

 

[conniegirl]

Talk to melanie watson at instinctive horse training.

My experiance is very very similar. I bought a 3yr old young horse who turned out to be a nightmare to break, several very experianced proffesionals (including NH) told me to shoot him he was dangerous. He bolted and I dont mean just running, I mean bolting blind, head first into walls with no regards for his own safety let alone his riders.
Melanie took the time to get into his brain, understand his history,
In 9 weeks she took him from a shooting case to a horse that happily hacked out but unfortunatly still had bolting issues in the school not every time and it was totaly unpredicatable for when he would do it
she told me to get him investigated as there was something wrong with him to cause this (he was lovely on the ground).
My vets did a full lameness work up and the horse could not be made to show as lame (normaly a vet can lame a horse by twisting a leg in a certain way), we xrayed his hocks, back and his neck and found nothing. the vets said nothing wrong, melanie insisted so I insisted on a bone scan which lit up like a christmas tree with a fractured pelvis!
Vet said the horse should have been on 3 legs and in agony not perfectly sound and getting 70% in dressage on a good day. but it did explain his behavior, when I asked him to take his weight back onto his hocks sometimes his pelvis got too painful for him to cope with (and boy did he cope with it at other times).
6 months box rest and a slow bringing back into work and he turned into a superstar
Melaine will tell you straight if you need to PTS she will not waste your money.

This is mine working with a fractured pelvis:

and without