Behaviourists - I need your help please

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Llwyncwn

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One of my liveries has asked me to help her sister's horse (long story) which has just now been delivered to the yard. He is a 5 year old regd Sec D gelding who has been moved 6 times in as many months. Broken in in Carmarthenshire, sold to novice chap somewhere near Somerset I think who had a local girl helping him. He became difficult to mount so they put him in a cattle crush (yes, you heard right) for the chap to mount. The cattle crush went over with horse in it.

Up until this stage there hadnt been a problem. My liveries sister bought him and moved him to Bedfordshire. Every time she got on him, he reared and she came off. He was then travelled back to a yard in Carmarthenshire to be re-started by someone I know and respect. Initially, you couldnt get a saddle near him, but with time and patience he came ok'ish. He would walk and trot under saddle, so liveries sister came down last Thursday to ride him herself. As soon as she got on, the saddle squeaked and he bronked and she came off again.

My livery asked me to take him on to do with him what I can and I have agreed, but if this is a psycological problem then there will be no quick fixes and he must stay until he has been sorted.

He has lost so much condition in recent months, not quite a hat rack but very poor, although he has a shiny coat. For the last 6 weeks he has been fed on sugar beet and barley which has probably affected him (toxin's).

I spoke to my vet who says not to do bloods yet, let him settle and treat him like a rescue with his feed and routine.

My question is - could this be a back problem (ringing chiro tonight) or do you think it is more psycological?

I personally think he should be allowed to chill for a few months with regular handling before being asked to take a saddle again.

Will take some pics and post later, in the meantime I would really appreciate any ideas you may have.

Hx
 
Hi, I had the exact same problem with a mare I bought in feb. She was in very poor conditio and had white marks on her withers where a saddle had obviously rubbed her.vet checked her and all was ok so decided to re-start her.well when I first attempted to put a saddle on her, she lost it!! spoke to my uncle who is a bit of a behaviour expert and he said it sounded like a psychological issue as she had the rub marks to prove it. Had her back done, it was quit e bad and then turned her away for a month. It has taken 6 months so far and I am at the point where I can mount her happily and walk, trot and canter safely. She does still have her odd "moment" but more trying it on than anything else. It wasnt easy but I treated her like a horse that had never been broken and did everything painfully slowly. for the first 3 weeks i put her saddle on her while I mucked out, groomed etc, just so she didnt associate it with pain. This seemed to work really well. After that she did all lunge work, long reining, walking in hand etc with her saddle on and by the time it came to mounting (I laid accross her twice a day for a week before mounting) she was totally relaxed. I totally believe that your boy just needs time and patience, but I would get his back done to put your mind at rest so you can start with a blank canvas. Sorry so long but hope this helps!!
 
I would sort out his diet and give him a breather from riding for a while and do in hand work, grooming him and getting him to trust and bond with you. He has been through a lot and no wonder he is worried about being mounted and ridden.

Before putting a saddle/bridle anywhere near him, I would see if a physio can have a look at him. To ensure there is nothing wrong with him physically and if there is to sort it out before rebacking him.

Once he is ok, slowly start rebacking him giving him as much time as he needs, even if its just putting the saddle and bridle in a corner of the stable to desensitise him for a few weeks/months.

It is more likely to be psychological, but he may have sustained injuries in the cattle crush accident. (people are just stupid!!)

Good luck with him.

x
 
Thanks for your reply and yes, it does help to confirm my own thoughts. He has been passed from pillar to post with some awful experiences along the way. As soon as I can rule out any physical reasons I can then begin to work on his 'mind'
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He will eventually go back to his owner in Bedfordshire but I think it will take a very long time.

If anyone else can offer me their experiences, I would be most grateful.
 
Hello hb6
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I am ringing my chiropractor tonight and get him checked over, he may well have sustained an injury in the crush. He has an exceptionally long back too for a D. Diet is the first thing I have worked out and it will be fibre all the way. He is such a lovely boy and deserves better. Thanks for your reply. Hx
 
You are welcome, now is grub is sorted out, I really hope you can sort his head out and I think you will. He is lucky to have you to help him. I think it will take time and patience.

He has been through a lot, give him a scratch from me.
 
I'd guess it's a bit of both. I'd be very surprised if he hasn't done some damage to himself when the cattle crush went over (what planet were these people on?!) & I suspect the whole thing has scared him & left him understandably worried about being mounted & ridden. Add to that the constant upheavel & it's a wonder the poor lad is doing as well as he is.

I think you're right in giving him some time to settle & sorting out his diet & back before you go any further. Hopefully he'll then be a lot calmer & more trusting when you start to do some work with him & like the others have said I'd go back to scratch & treat him as unbroken, making sure he's completely confident (almost bored) with each step before going on to the next. He's been unlucky to date but it sounds like he's fallen on his feet now!
 
Hi I have been through quite a few issues with my horse (he had a kissing spine, wasn't really very happy about any aspect of life especially his back!) and the best advice I can give you is that if you take your time and think about anything you ask the horse to do from it's point of view you are more likely to win as you will be prepared for its reactions. Definitely check back, teeth & feet before you do anything but it sounds as though this is a major trust issue and it just doesn't understand the very basics.

As you are saying, I would almost treat it like a foal that you have just started to handle, don't assume it knows anything and teach it the way you wish it to behave reinforcing good behaviour with loads of praise, do plenty of halter work etc get respect leading in hand etc etc.

The tip about the saddle is a good one just introduce things slowly and make it normal practice not a big deal, for example with the saddle, I wouldn't bother to start off with, but when you feel ready to tackle working the horse, I would teach it to long rein so that it is doing everything from body language and voice commands, if you manage that well it should help all aspects, pop a loose roller on the horse when it is munching a haynet in the stable and over a couple of weeks gradually tighten it up etc etc for each thing you want to achieve break it down in to manageable chunks so that you don't flood the horse. Ryan is super over sensitive, it is a complete pain but I have found that if I approach things in a reasoned manner and take it step by step so that he understands, he fights much less and it works much more effectively and is quicker in the long run.

Best of luck to you, think you are brave to take this on and the horse is lucky that it has found someone prepared to give it a chance, it may be a long road but I think you'll get there.
 
Thanks for your replies Nairi and Beth, its comforting to be able to bounce ideas of other people who have been in a similar situation and understand, as I am only too aware that I have to take things at his pace and one wrong move could at best set him back, at worse ???

He has come to me from a yard where he was 'broken in' for a second time, starting from scratch with mouthing, long reigning, lunging etc., so Im probably not going to go down this route again. I think its a good idea to start him eventually with a roller, thanks for the suggestion Beth, and also for reminding me of the fact that I need to ensure that what I ask him is easily understood.

I have rescued quite a few neds over the years and I compromise with the oldies who have certain issues. This situation, especially being a youngster is rather different.

My initial thoughts on him were kissing spines, but from what I have been told he was broken in initially and was fine. My vets are up tomorrow so I will ask them to have a look.

It was interesting to read about Ryan and your experiences Beth.
 
I have been through the same thing with one of my Arab mares.

She came to me in a poor state. Although I had seen her being ridden there was something not right about her.

I was interested in her because of her breeding.

Before I bought her she had cut her legs around and the previous owners had not treated them. she also had cut her knee just before I bought her. This was treated by the vets but the owner did not keep up the treatment. The previous owner told me 2 stories about how she had damaged the knee. It became apparent later which story was right.

She was very nervous and lacked confidence. I allowed her to chill out for a few weeks and gain some condition.

When I went to get on her she just reared up and was not happy at all. I had her teeth done, checked her saddle and had her back checked. Her teeth and back needed a lot of work doing on them

It was a matter of gaining her confidence which took me about 8 months. Slowly I did this and she started to trust me.

The story I now know to be correct is that the owner lunged and lunged until she was so tied and then tried to mount her she fell and that is how she damaged her knee.

She is now an endurance horse that I would trust with my life. At the moment she is due to foal anyday.

I have also done some Parelli Natural Horsemanship which has help no end.

Your horse will come right but it will take time.

Good luck
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Poor horsey. Welsh D's do tend to take things very seriously as they are particularly intelligent. Those of us who have one know what is meant by "having a Welsh moment"!! I think the biggest clue to this sorry tale is the fact that a youngster has been sold to a novice man. Sorry guys, but I'm willing to bet that he wasn't very competent, including at mounting, and has been pulling the saddle over the horse's back by mounting from the ground. Horses never seem to forget pain. My own mare was scarred by an ill-fitting rug, and even though I am exceptionally careful and use rugs that fit well, she gets quite distressed when she even sees me carrying a rug and I've had her 14 years. This young chap is going to take a great deal of time and absolute patience. You will always have to give him the benefit of the doubt. First, use a proper horse physio (not a "back person") to check him out and treat him. Get his teeth done. Tack will have to be checked too, but leave that for now. It can take several weeks for soft tissue injuries to settle down, so don't rush to get a saddle back on him. His loss of condition could be due to low grade pain, but my girl can lose weight overnight if she is feeling stressed. I'd be looking to make friends with him first of all. There is plenty you can do at ground level before you go on to lunging, and putting on a roller etc. When I bought my girl she had a sharp accelerator and absolutely no brakes with the bonus of being a chestnut mare. I didn't ride her for a full 6 weeks, and then did another 4 weeks only at walk in an indoor arena. It paid off though as she ended up totally voice controlled - she would always overreact to conventional aids.
 
i agree with eventgirl you should turn him away for a month while his diet and condition improves, just doing groundwork with him, then start to re-back him completely starting with lunging and long reining n always lunge him for 10/15 mins 1st when u start riding him cos then it will be just like normal routine n he will relax.
 
poor thing, i would love 5 minutes with whoever thought it was a good idea to put him in a cattle crush, jeeeeeezzzzuuuussss. lucky he didn't kill anyone or kill himself.
i'd give him plenty of time and attention, slowly rebuild his trust in people. i'd be putting a towel on his back every day, rubbing him over with it and then spreading it on his back, not making a big deal out of it, so that something being put on his back is just a routine boring thing. then a polypad. then a polypad with roller, then eventually a saddle. before i thought about anyone getting in the saddle again, i'd want him leading out in full tack, lungeing happily, jumping a little jump on the lunge in full tack, long reining, the works, and totally oblivous to his saddle. i'd then want to be able to stand on a mounting block above him and be able to, eventually, thump all over his shoulders, quarters, loins and saddle without him batting an eyelid.
when this is all accomplished, i'd think of getting a very good calm lightweight rider back in the plate, and go on from there.
poor lad, what a nightmare he's been through. very very best of luck with him. i'd guess it's primarily psychological damage tbh, but who can blame him?
 
Thanks everyone. Vet says he has back problems and under no cirmumstances put a saddle on him for at least a month. I was thiinking more like 3-6 months. Chiro out on Friday. Dont think its KS at this stage. He has already put on a little conditon since being off the barley/sugar beet and having lots of Dr. Green. He is so chlled too and very easy to do.

Thank you all for your replies, will do new post after chiro has been on Friday.
 
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