Behaviourists

[Marmalade]

Hello

I am thinking of getting a behaviourist out to see my mare who is getting more and more aggressive, uptight, difficult to ride.. I have had the vet look at her, she has her back done very regularly and she sees the dentist at least twice a year. She used to be a very sweet mare but unfortunately has endured a lot of box rest for one horse, which can't have helped, but she is getting progressively worse with no change to her management or routine.

I know very little about behaviourists in terms of what qualifies them, who's good etc. etc. Just wondering if any of you have any recommendations / experiences of behaviourists?

Thanks!

ps I'm based in the Midlands

 

[TicTac]

All I would advise is make sure you get somebody who has been recommended to you. as there are alot of cowboys about. I would try and seek out an Intelligent Horsemanship ' trainer' ( a Kelly Marks method) Hope you get your mare sorted.

 

[ISHmad]

Agree with TicTax, ideally go for personal recommendation as there are a lot of charlatans out there. If at all possible try to see what their own horses are like. It was a real eye opener to me when it came to light that a behavourist near us couldn't even catch her horses or lead them in from the field to the yard without them either planting for an absolute age or bogging off.

Depending on where you are in the Midlands Grant Bazin is very good.

 

[Marmalade]

Thanks, that's why I asked on here, as I don't know anyone personally who has used one, and I don't want just anyone who calls themselves a behaviourist.

ISHmad - I am in Warwickshire, where is Grant Bazin based?

 

[AmyMay]

She used to be a very sweet mare but unfortunately has endured a lot of box rest for one horse, which can't have helped, but she is getting progressively worse with no change to her management or routine.

What kind of vet exam has she undergone???

And what is her routine and management??

 

[leonh]

i imported a PRE andalusian gelding this year and since had very similar and worse vices/problems. just got worse and worse. He is now, and has been past three weeks at equusense in devon a rehabilitation / behaviour centre. before that he was at prof dressage yard full livery but even they said he was very difficult and worse than the stallions!. i couldn't have him at home on my beautiful farm as i simply couldn't control him or knew what to do to manage/control/stop his behaviour. he'd smash thru fences and go over stable doors - weirdly he was amazing safe calm ride who was willing and gentle!! i changed his yard to a spanish specialist in dressage and he threw a complete wobbler. a week later after daily sedation he hadnt calmed and was getting worse and very dangerous. he had to go. i phoned equusense in tears and although they didnt really have the space, juggled things around and took him the next day.
Equusense has saved his life. Already after 3 weeks he is a completely different horse. a non horsey person can now lead him away from horses etc which before was a battle. if they can do that to mine, then i suggest you call them!!! i don't usually recommend as it can come back to bite your ass but using natural horsemanship my horse has been transformed and it turns out he is just a big baby who is insecure and anxious. confidence and trust is built very strongly in round pens and i think this is the way forward in horses with behaviour probs. get natural. get to the root. if you can afford it, send her away, but always get recommendations!!

 

[flintfootfilly]

I would recommend Richard Maxwell (Max). He travels all over, and is excellent at getting to the root of the problem and helping the owner find a strategy to stay on tract once he's left.

He's not cheap, but he's very effective! Well worth it IMHO.

Sarah

 

[MerrySherryRider]

I'd recommend Micheal Peace, depending whereabouts in Warwickshire you are, he's probably no more than an hour away. I sent a young horse to him a few years back and he was amazing. He works very quietly and the horses on his yard are so chilled. My horse adored him, she was a putty in his hands.
He either takes horses in or will travel to you. Not cheap, but very effective.( Like RM )

 

[Marmalade]

amymay - the vet has checked her over for any signs of injury / pain, taken bloods which showed no abnormalities etc etc. I called them specifically about this issue as she seems to be getting worse and they can not find a physical reason for the change in her behaviour.

Her usual routine is stabled at night and turned out with 3 or 4 other mares in the day. In the winter she brought in about 3 as she doesn't like being out after dark and runs up and down the fence until she's 'rescued'!

She gets ridden every day for around an hour, except for one day off a week - a variety of schooling, hacking, jumping, lessons etc.

 

[mulledwhine]

All I would advise is make sure you get somebody who has been recommended to you. as there are alot of cowboys about. I would try and seek out an Intelligent Horsemanship ' trainer' ( a Kelly Marks method) Hope you get your mare sorted.

I got a guy out caledl Gary Bosworth, he is part of Kelly's team

 

[AmyMay]

amymay - the vet has checked her over for any signs of injury / pain, taken bloods which showed no abnormalities etc etc. I called them specifically about this issue as she seems to be getting worse and they can not find a physical reason for the change in her behaviour.

I know that there has been quite a bit of discussion here in the past about mares having problems with their overies - and this can cause behavioural problems. Something to think about maybe.

 

[ISHmad]

Grant Bazin is in Northants OP. Know several people who have used him with god results. Three of the were in Coventry so he definitely covers Warks. Whoever you choose I hope this brings about positive change for you and your horse.

 

[amandap]

I would go back to a review of feed and management and look further into possible physical causes such as gastric ulcers, sore feet etc. etc. along with support from a 'good' Trainer.

Is his life 'horse friendly' enough? Does he get enough fibre and not too much sugar in his diet etc.

 

[Marmalade]

Thanks for all your thoughts. To be honest I had thought more of going down the scientific route and was looking for someone with a qualification in equine behaviour who could come and see us 'as a whole' and make suggestions on what we can do at with management, work etc rather than send her away and not be involved. I hadn't really thought about the natural horsemanship route, but my friend is a monty roberts instructor so I will give her a call.

amandap - the vet didn't think she had ulcers - she has been thorughly checked out and they were happy with her diet, foot balance and general health. She is turned out daily in a big field, with extra haylage in the winter, she is allowed as much haylage as she can eat, and feedwise has 2 scoops of Alfa A oil and a scoop of conditioning cubes twice a day, so other than the cubes, all she eats is fibre!

Will speak to the vets about possible ovary issues - she has a mare-ble in as she spent 2 summers coming into season on her regular cycle every 3 - 3.5 weeks and then also in between times if she encountered a horse she liked the look of.

 

[amandap]

Fair enough but gastric ulcers can only be diagnosed with a scope I believe.
I would always keep a physical cause as a factor in my mind tbh but that's just from my experience.

You want someone like Ben Hart it sounds like for a behavioural approach that stays with strict scientific theory... Don't forget your gut instinct though.

If you google animal behaviourists you may get some names. There's a Jenni Nellist too as well as quite a few others.
I did have a link to a forum but have lost it. Try proboards... Equi-click forum...

 

[tess1]

if you a interested in a more behavioural/scientific approach check out the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (APBC) as some (but certainly not all) members do see horses. It only advertises Full members, but Provisionals are also qualified to see cases and it may be worth contacting them as even if a full member is not in your area, you may well have a provisional.

http://www.apbc.org.uk/

Jenni, as mentioned is very good and well qualified as is Justine Harrison (google her name and equine behaviour).

good luck

 

[winterwood]

Gastric ulcers can also be diagnosed from a feacal blood count search for 'succeed fbc' on google.

You could also try having a thermal imaging scan done to detect any physical areas of concern. A full body scan is around £85 (in this area anyway!)

 

[fizzer]

Have done lots of training with Grant, he is fantastic, I would recommend him 100%. He is based in Byfield Northants 07548 374289.

 

[soloequestrian]

Debbie Marsden, who is/was based at the Dick Vet, runs a training course for equine behaviourists (as distinct from natural horse persons). She has a website and may be able to recommend one of her trainees in your area.

 

[Tinypony]

I would second what Tess has said, there are some very good people in the association she's linked to. I've had some experience with "problem" horses and very often it's not a training issue as such, it needs more of a look at their overall management and daily life. Qualified equine behaviourists are normally very good at that. (Not wanting to upset anyone, but many of the people mentioned here don't have equine behaviour qualifications, they are trainers who attach the behaviour label to themselves, or who subscribe to one trainer's view of equine behaviour).

 

[leogeorge]

I agree completely with tinypony and also with Tess' recommendations. Both Jenni Nellist and Justine Harrison are excellent

 

[amandap]

I would second what Tess has said, there are some very good people in the association she's linked to. I've had some experience with "problem" horses and very often it's not a training issue as such, it needs more of a look at their overall management and daily life. Qualified equine behaviourists are normally very good at that. (Not wanting to upset anyone, but many of the people mentioned here don't have equine behaviour qualifications, they are trainers who attach the behaviour label to themselves, or who subscribe to one trainer's view of equine behaviour).

I do disagree here! lol Many 'trainers' do look at horses holistically it is far from unique to Behaviourists and like others it depends on the individual.

 

[paulineh]

I assume that you have been down the lines of having her back , teeth and saddle checked.

You could also have an animal communicator talk to her you may find that it is something simple.

 

[Tinypony]

I do disagree here! lol Many 'trainers' do look at horses holistically it is far from unique to Behaviourists and like others it depends on the individual.

I didn't at any point lump all together, but Op asked about behaviourists, and if that's what she wants then my answer stands. Some of the people mentioned above have a rather narrow view of "equine bahaviour". ;-)

Leogeorge, see, we sometimes agree!

 

[amandap]

I misunderstood you then, I thought you were referring to any Trainer who isn't a 'behaviourist'.

Behaviour theory can also become very narrow if that's all you take into account. Balance and understanding of horses themselves is crucial imo.

 

[AmyMay]

Will speak to the vets about possible ovary issues - she has a mare-ble in as she spent 2 summers coming into season on her regular cycle every 3 - 3.5 weeks and then also in between times if she encountered a horse she liked the look of.

This is where I would be spending my money.

Good luck - let us know how you get on.

 

[Crazy Friesian]

I would definitely try Sarah Fisher. If she cant come over to you she will be able to put you in touch with someone who can. She is really good.

http://www.tilleyfarm.co.uk/

 

[fburton]

I misunderstood you then, I thought you were referring to any Trainer who isn't a 'behaviourist'.

Behaviour theory can also become very narrow if that's all you take into account. Balance and understanding of horses themselves is crucial imo.

Any equine behaviourist worth their salt should know about more than just 'learning theory'. They should also know about those aspects of behaviour that are specific to horses - i.e. "understanding of horses themselves" as you say. I would be surprised if any formal qualification in equine behaviour did not also cover this essential aspect, even if the emphasis is on approaches to problems and training based in learning theory rather than some other "system". There is no reason why behaviourists should be any less able to "read" a horse, diagnose problems, recommend solutions, etc. - though they won't talk in terms of "Left Brain Extrovert" or Alpha Leaders.

(Of course, a lot of what conventional and NH trainers do is based in learning theory even if it may not be expressed/explained that way!)

 

[amandap]

I know you don't agree with me when you quote me now FBurton! lol
Yes, hopefully any Behavioural Trainer 'worth their salt' as you say should take account of horses themselves so should any horse owner too!
I doubt they (BT's) do talk about right brained etc. whatever that means but they do talk about a mechanism for training that can be abusive if used incorrectly. (I forget myself, of course it possibly couldn't be as abusive as any other Training methodolgy in the 'wrong' hands could it? I always forget that argument! )
No they use... variable/random schedules of reinforcement etc. etc.

Btw, I have nothing whatsoever against clinical animal behaviourists or whatever the correct title is, in fact I think they will make a huge difference for the better in the horse world but they do already have 'followers' who are extremely judgemental of many who do not see the world in quite the same way.

 

[fburton]

I know you don't agree with me when you quote me now FBurton! lol

Oh, I'm sure some of my replies have been in complete agreement with you AmandaP! But it is also fun to debate.

Yes, hopefully any Behavioural Trainer 'worth their salt' as you say should take account of horses themselves so should any horse owner too!
I doubt they (BT's) do talk about right brained etc. whatever that means but they do talk about a mechanism for training that can be abusive if used incorrectly. (I forget myself, of course it possibly couldn't be as abusive as any other Training methodolgy in the 'wrong' hands could it? I always forget that argument! )

I agree any method is open to misuse and abuse. I don't think it's correct to equate behaviourists with clicker trainers though. Maybe that's not what you're doing - and I apologize in advance if I have misunderstood you. What's true, however, is that BTs will have CT and other reward-based methods in their 'toolbox'.

I guess I would consider myself to be in the 'behaviourist' camp. However, that doesn't stop me using punishment or negative reinforcement as appropriate, or recognizing horses' particular needs, perceptiveness or capabilities, or being 'tuned in' to their body language.

No they use... variable/random schedules of reinforcement etc. etc.

Not sure what you mean here. ???

Btw, I have nothing whatsoever against clinical animal behaviourists or whatever the correct title is, in fact I think they will make a huge difference for the better in the horse world but they do already have 'followers' who are extremely judgemental of many who do not see the world in quite the same way.

Yes, I've noticed, and I think that is unfortunate.