Behaviourists

[kirstyl]

Fair enough but gastric ulcers can only be diagnosed with a scope I believe.
I would always keep a physical cause as a factor in my mind tbh but that's just from my experience.

You want someone like Ben Hart it sounds like for a behavioural approach that stays with strict scientific theory... Don't forget your gut instinct though.

If you google animal behaviourists you may get some names. There's a Jenni Nellist too as well as quite a few others.
I did have a link to a forum but have lost it. Try proboards... Equi-click forum...

Ben Hart is fantastic but is based in Devon, although I'm sure he does travel about

 

[leogeorge]

Leogeorge, see, we sometimes agree!

Lol Tinypony It must be the time of year...peace and joy and the stuff of miracles

Amandap and fburton....not judgemental, just using knowledge of learning theory and up to date ethology to see the wood from the trees and not afraid to have an opinion and question the dubious explanations of why something is working

I guess I would consider myself to be in the 'behaviourist' camp. However, that doesn't stop me using punishment or negative reinforcement as appropriate, or recognizing horses' particular needs, perceptiveness or capabilities, or being 'tuned in' to their body language.

Ditto!!

 

[amandap]

Lol... just seen FBurton has posted again so my comment was incorrect and so deleted.

 

[amandap]

Oh, I'm sure some of my replies have been in complete agreement with you AmandaP! But it is also fun to debate.

Lol. True.

I agree any method is open to misuse and abuse. I don't think it's correct to equate behaviourists with clicker trainers though. Maybe that's not what you're doing - and I apologize in advance if I have misunderstood you. What's true, however, is that BTs will have CT and other reward-based methods in their 'toolbox'.

Yes, you are correct I have got some rather enthusiastic clicker trainers muddled with Behaviourists but I often seem to meet the two together in my travels on line and unfortunately the two are becoming one in my mind!

I guess I would consider myself to be in the 'behaviourist' camp. However, that doesn't stop me using punishment or negative reinforcement as appropriate, or recognizing horses' particular needs, perceptiveness or capabilities, or being 'tuned in' to their body language.

I'd worked that out. I could be in that camp too but I need to find more less zealous peeps to befriend first.

Not sure what you mean here. ???

Reinforcing the behaviour randomly to strengthen the cue/behaviour link. I believe this is used prior to withdrawing the treat/reward in clicker training or to maintain a behaviour long term. Again I'm probably muddling Behaviourism with Clicker Training but my understanding of 'variable schedule of reinforcement' may also be incorrect. I just picked a behavioural theory process that sprang to mind.

 

[tess1]

Definition of 'Behaviourism' taken from wikipedia

Behaviorism (or behaviourism), also called the learning perspective (where any physical action is a behavior), is a philosophy of psychology based on the proposition that all things that organisms do—including acting, thinking and feeling—can and should be regarded as behaviors.[1] The behaviorist school of thought maintains that behaviors as such can be described scientifically without recourse either to internal physiological events or to hypothetical constructs such as the mind.[2] Behaviorism comprises the position that all theories should have observational correlates but that there are no philosophical differences between publicly observable processes (such as actions) and privately observable processes (such as thinking and feeling).


How does this translate to the work of an equine behaviourist?

Currently, anyone (pretty much) can call themselves an equine behaviourist. There is no difinitive qualification or legislation that clarifies that term. So it is beholden to any owner to check out both the practical and theoretical approach of anyone that gets to lay a finger on your horse - word of mouth is, at the end of the day by far the best recommendation - but it is not always possible depending location and so on.

When I posted the link to the APBC forum, it was a response to the poster's request for a more 'scientific' approach. But there seems to be confusion in this thread about how an equine behaviourist approaches the description, explanation and modification of equine 'problem' behaviour. Personally, I think the term 'equine behaviourist' can be a bit confusing/misleading - partly because there is no such qualification, and partly because of the confusion arising from the link with 'behaviourism' - which, as suggested in the quote above, is a specific school of psychology.

Obviously I cannot speak for all 'equine behaviourists' because I do not know what their theoretical/practical approach is (as it is not a clear qualification) - but for the behaviourists I have mentioned, and for the members of the APBC I know that to gain their qualification they will have demonstrated applied knowledge (ie, practical knowledge) of the following: ethology (and how that impacts on 'modern' management practices), welfare, ethics, learning theory, practical training skills, neuropsychology and psychopharmacology, human psychology, history-taking, a very thorough diagnostic procedure which would have considered the pre-disposing, initiating and maintaining factors of any problem exhibited and the ability to design and implement effective behaviour modification programmes to suit the situation of the owner and animal. They will have also worked in close conjunction with a vet (all behaviour referrals are made via a vet) to rule out/manage the strong possibility of physical/medical cause to the behaviour. So to say that it is a narrow approach, limited by learning theory is inaccurate.

To clarify the point made about variable schedules of reinforcement (VSR). When a behaviour is being taught initially it is (if using positive reinforcement) on a continuous schedule of reinforcement (CSR). This means every time the desired behaviour is performed it is rewarded. Usually this is done via a click (if clicker training is being used) and a food reward. However, this is only a learning process; as soon as the behaviour is understood the trainer switches to a VSR. This means that the behaviour is not rewarded every time - but only occasionally - and the occasions become less and less over time. The 'click' is also faded - as the clicker is only a tool for marking the specific behaviour required. It is perfectly possible to simply mark the behaviour with a verbal 'good' - and never use a clicker at all - the principle is exactly the same - mark and reward the desired behaviour in the learning process.

The ultimate aim of clicker training is to lose completely the mechanical 'clicker' - which is merely a tool for clarification - and get to the stage where the desired behaviour is reinforced with verbal praise and the occasional treat. So a good clicker trainer will fade the 'click' asap and only reward (with food) occasionally. The very good trainers go onto DRE (differential reinforcement for excellence) which means that only the best behaviours are rewarded in any given spectrum.

Obviously if the behaviour 'breaks down' the trainer knows they have gone too fast, and will back track a few steps to ensure a solid foundation. Behaviours reinforced on a VSR will become stronger - because it is just like gambling - the animal never knows when the reward is coming, so it is going to keep trying. Coercion? Certainly. But (to my mind at least) better coercion with positive reinforcment than negative reinforcement and the threat of positive punishment. If we do not want to coerce our horses we had better just leave them in the field and do absolutely nothing at all with them - and personally I don't want to do that.

So, yes, VSR does strengthen behaviour, and is used by clicker trainers as a natural progression of their training - because clicker trainers, to my knowledge, are not 'fluffy bunnies who enjoy feeding their horses carrots for ever more' but practical people with a good knowledge of training and the use of positive reinforcement in training, and who want to teach their horses to do what they want them to do as pleasantly as possible. But this does not automatically rule out the use of negative reinforcement, negative punishment or positive punishment - all of which are tools within the trainer's tool box. Neither does it rule out other forms of learning (social/imitative, habituation, desensitization, the use of counter-conditioning and so on). Nor their ability to veiw the horse as a sentient being with feelings and emotions which need to be taken into consideration during the training process.

(apologies to anyone who by now is thinking WTF - hot chocolate and yummy biscuits - or a damn good glass of your favourite tipple - for all of you)

 

[JanetGeorge]

I am thinking of getting a behaviourist out to see my mare who is getting more and more aggressive, uptight, difficult to ride.. I have had the vet look at her, she has her back done very regularly and she sees the dentist at least twice a year. She used to be a very sweet mare but unfortunately has endured a lot of box rest for one horse, which can't have helped, but she is getting progressively worse with no change to her management or routine.

This is relatively simple.

If her back, teeth and saddle are fine, then either the mare has a problem with her ovaries - or it's a rider problem. Sorry - but it's that simple IMHO (and I see and retrain a LOT of horses with 'behavioural' problems.)

Box rest will make some horses pretty 'hyper' - but once they're OFF box rest and back to normal turnout and exercise - it should have no lasting effect (although I have a couple who had extended box rest - and all the attention they got made them sweeter and more affectionate!)

Most of the problem horses that come to me virtually cease to be 'problems' on arrival! Obviously a lot of them need schooling (or backing/re-backing) but 'behavioural' problems (barging, kicking, bucking, being 'nervy' etc.) almost always cease very quickly (indicating they were due to management and/or riding/handling 'issues' at home.)

These horses don't need a 'scientific' approach - they need a good common sense horsemanship approach and a knowledgeable eye on you and your horse to see where the problems lie. Then the problems can be fixed - but 9 times out of 10, the rider needs 'fixing' at least as much as the horse!

 

[missyme10]

I am no expert on a horses behaviour, but I have been around horses long enough to know that 9 times out of 10, where physical problems, ie. tack, back, teeth etc have been eliminated, the root cause of the horses problems lies with the owner/handler.
The exception being a newly bought horse of course.

A good trainer will not only observe your horse, but you also and will very quickly see what is going wrong and put you and your horse on the right track.
I just know from my own personal experiences, every problem I've ever had with any of my horses has been down to something I was doing or wasn't doing right, and its hard to see it yourself at the time.
We're always very quick to wonder what is wrong with the horse, but very rarely wonder what is wrong with us

I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, but if you really want to get to the bottom of your problems with your horse, it is something that you should give some thought to as you have to consider all options.

I hope you get a solution sooner rather than later x

 

[amandap]

(apologies to anyone who by now is thinking WTF - hot chocolate and yummy biscuits - or a damn good glass of your favourite tipple - for all of you)

Erm, would that be me? Actually Tess1 you have reminded me that I am not a 'Behaviourist' although I do believe in and use many of the concepts in theory that are drawn from it.
Can I have a G&T though?

Apologies to OP for going off topic and I hope you get a good outcome for you and your horse.

 

[Bertthefrog]

This is relatively simple.

If her back, teeth and saddle are fine, then either the mare has a problem with her ovaries - or it's a rider problem. Sorry - but it's that simple IMHO (and I see and retrain a LOT of horses with 'behavioural' problems.)

Box rest will make some horses pretty 'hyper' - but once they're OFF box rest and back to normal turnout and exercise - it should have no lasting effect (although I have a couple who had extended box rest - and all the attention they got made them sweeter and more affectionate!)

Most of the problem horses that come to me virtually cease to be 'problems' on arrival! Obviously a lot of them need schooling (or backing/re-backing) but 'behavioural' problems (barging, kicking, bucking, being 'nervy' etc.) almost always cease very quickly (indicating they were due to management and/or riding/handling 'issues' at home.)

These horses don't need a 'scientific' approach - they need a good common sense horsemanship approach and a knowledgeable eye on you and your horse to see where the problems lie. Then the problems can be fixed - but 9 times out of 10, the rider needs 'fixing' at least as much as the horse!

Common sense and horsemanship - I'm with you every time!!

*whispers very quietly* You do realise you are missing a trick though - giving it a posh name and charging lots of money for your mystical teachings is the way to go

 

[tess1]

Erm, would that be me?

maybe


Can I have a G&T though?

Absolutely - I'll join you with a red wine


Apologies to OP for going off topic and I hope you get a good outcome for you and your horse.

Agree - good luck in finding the right person to help you and your horse

 

[JanetGeorge]

*whispers very quietly* You do realise you are missing a trick though - giving it a posh name and charging lots of money for your mystical teachings is the way to go

Oh - don't worry - I've got it planned for when I have a few moments off from sorting problem horses! It's going to be called 'No S*** Horsemanship' - and I'm going to design posh versions of a few simple, useful bits of equipment and offer them in PINK!

There'll be the fancy version of the 'bum rope' - called the 'foal mobiliser'!

Mr Blue Pipe - in pink - will be called the 'extended hand aide' - and the (pink, of course) rubber feed skip will be called the 'stop kick' aide.

There'll be a fancy DVD - of course!!

Apologies to the OP for another 'off topic' - whereabouts in the Midlands are you. If you're not TOO far away I could pop in for a look-see - for a few quid for diesel and a cup of coffee - and offer my humble opinion on your problem.

 

[leogeorge]

What a pity we can't clone you Janetgeorge, what with the horseworld being over run with "Full of s**t horsemanship" trainers...and I'm not talking about the qualified Behaviourists!! People will always need help pointing out where they are going wrong, but sadly, there are too many "problem" horse trainers that don't work on vet referal ( as Behaviourists do) , assume the owner is "not being a good leader" or the horse "lacks respect", add a pressure halter and a bunch of groundwork exersices, just to find somewhere down the line that the poor horse has ulcers or some other unseen physical problem! Give me a behaviourist ( who actually don't cost any more than the FOSH trainers) any day of the week.

 

[Bertthefrog]

Oh - don't worry - I've got it planned for when I have a few moments off from sorting problem horses! It's going to be called 'No S*** Horsemanship' - and I'm going to design posh versions of a few simple, useful bits of equipment and offer them in PINK!

"No S*** Horsemanship"

Priceless!!!

 

[fburton]

What a pity we can't clone you Janetgeorge, what with the horseworld being over run with "Full of s**t horsemanship" trainers...and I'm not talking about the qualified Behaviourists!! People will always need help pointing out where they are going wrong, but sadly, there are too many "problem" horse trainers that don't work on vet referal ( as Behaviourists do) , assume the owner is "not being a good leader" or the horse "lacks respect", add a pressure halter and a bunch of groundwork exersices, just to find somewhere down the line that the poor horse has ulcers or some other unseen physical problem! Give me a behaviourist ( who actually don't cost any more than the FOSH trainers) any day of the week.

Agree with everything you said!

 

[amandap]

If Vet referral is a marker for excellence all I can say is G** help horses!
Vets should become more aware of the behavioural effects of physical problems which I have come to believe are probably THE number one reason horses object! Followed closely by lack of communication and or less than perfect training.

Imo the only marker for excellence is a content, well balanced, healthy horse.

This... who is the BEST type of trainer/expert is becoming boring to me I'm afraid. I don't see behaviourists as the whole answer and I see a very zealous 'following' developing for them in some circles... reminds me of other 'followings'! rofl!

There are good and bad horse trainers. The only way round this is owners learning more themselves!

 

[Marmalade]

JanetGeorge - I appreciate your comments and trust me I have looked long and hard at myself, and got many others to objectively do the same, but this mare has been with me for 6 years, and has only been like this very recently. Nothing I do has changed in terms of how I look after her, ride her, or otherwise. She is in the same yard, same stable, same field, with the same field mates. She gets ridden the same amount, we have regular lessons and she has been to another yard on full livery for a week or so when I've been on holiday. There, she gets ridden by a great, sympathetic rider and is looked after really well by professionals, and she still is the same. So I am stumped!

I would love someone to come and point out what the obvious thing I am doing wrong is - hence my post! If you feel you could help, please feel to come and meet us! I am near Warwick.

 

[Suzie86]

Jenny is that you? And Maizie??

It's Suzie from PC

 

[JanetGeorge]

JanetGeorge - I appreciate your comments and trust me I have looked long and hard at myself, and got many others to objectively do the same, but this mare has been with me for 6 years, and has only been like this very recently. Nothing I do has changed in terms of how I look after her, ride her, or otherwise.

In that case, first step would be to have her ovaries scanned! When you say 'very recent' would you mean in the last - say - two months?? If so, then she may well have a large haemorrhagic follicle that got 'stuck' during transitional oestrus. They can be big - and painful - and turn a mare into the b*tch from hell.

 

[AndySpooner]

.

These horses don't need a 'scientific' approach - they need a good common sense horsemanship approach and a knowledgeable eye on you and your horse to see where the problems lie. Then the problems can be fixed - but 9 times out of 10, the rider needs 'fixing' at least as much as the horse!

Really do agree with this, however, there is no such thing as 'Common' sense. Sense is bloody rare, and 'horse' sense even rarer.