Behind the bit or leaning... How do I find a balance?

[Aabri]

I have a question as I've started riding a horse that curls his neck in and you lose all feeling on the bit and in your hands. To solve this every time he curls I chase him forward until he stops, even if that means him coming above the vertical. Now he does it a lot less, however as another evasion he now just tries to lean on my hands and rush forwards. He's always either doing one or the other, how can I encourage a horse like this to use his back more?

I've tried riding him long and low into the bit as well as dropping him when he leans. I slow his rush with my body but then as I do he comes behind the bit so then I have to chase him forward again. It all seems like a vicious circle.

 

[ljohnsonsj]

Ride on a loose rein. With my uptight horse I do loads of trotting on figure of 8's circles etc on a loose rein and I also try to do lots of stopping and starting. Try to not use your hands at all and let him come into you instead of sitting behind

 

[milliepops]

Hmmm. My experience is that these types take time and patience to improve, but you can definitely teach them to be confident and consistent to the contact with care and sensitivity.
How old is the horse, OP - and what's his previous training history?

 

[Aabri]

He's 12 years old and hasn't previously done too much I don't think. Someone who used to loan him said she had lots of dressage lessons on him (and only competed to Novice), in my opinion the lessons couldn't have been very good considering the horse has learnt to just tuck his head in. He's obviously found a release from pressure through tucking behind and so continues to do so. I guess it will take time, I just don't want to be doing the wrong thing and wondered if anyone had any suggestions or tips.

Hmmm. My experience is that these types take time and patience to improve, but you can definitely teach them to be confident and consistent to the contact with care and sensitivity.
How old is the horse, OP - and what's his previous training history?

 

[milliepops]

have to nip out now but I think you have the right approach, though I would dial it down a little - I wouldn't think of chasing him forward because that may be at the root of his over-reaction towards leaning and rushing. You need to have in your mind the feel that you want in your hands, keep the contact steady and inviting for him, try to always have a gentle feel on his mouth that is forward feeling so that whatever tentative move he makes towards the bit is met with sensitivity. When you put him long and low, is he into the contact then or not? If he's still curled up but with a lower neck I'd park this for a little while - you need to teach him to come to the contact correctly first, though that can be achieved by stretching it is sometimes easier to keep them up together a little first, because it's easier to monitor their balance like this.

Rather than chase him forward, I'd think about him always being in front of your leg - often this type will be quite deceptive - give you nothing in the hand and scuttle forward in a flap but not actually be on your aids. It's a bit on their terms rather than yours. So perhaps think about riding lots of transitions between and within the paces to make sure you are always the one who is deciding the pace, and this should also deliver him into the contact a little more positively each time.

If he does start to lean or rush, try not to over react - when they go from one extreme to the other it's tempting to do too much as a rider.. but you perpetuate the cycle then. IMO you need to be his rock, the thing that doesn't change, so he learns what you want from him - if he leans, show him how to be light by momentarily dropping the contact and restablishing it keeping the soft consistent feel you want uppermost in your mind. Again, really working the transitions and quality of the paces, engagement etc can really help with this.

It's sometimes quite slow to improve but stay positive, stay patient and stay consistent

 

[Aabri]

Thanks so much that's really reassuring. I totally get what you're saying and I think you're right, I have almost been over strict in my approach rather than being calm and consistent. He is most definitely a crafty and smart horse- his owner has treated him like a baby all his life and he can be very brattish (part of the problem is I don't baby him in that same way and expect a lot from a horse that has been treated like a prince)

As for your question about long and low he curls up too but with encouragement from the leg he does stretch into the bit a bit more

Thanks for the advice and I hope that if I can provide consistency with determination we will get somewhere eventually!

have to nip out now but I think you have the right approach, though I would dial it down a little - I wouldn't think of chasing him forward because that may be at the root of his over-reaction towards leaning and rushing. You need to have in your mind the feel that you want in your hands, keep the contact steady and inviting for him, try to always have a gentle feel on his mouth that is forward feeling so that whatever tentative move he makes towards the bit is met with sensitivity. When you put him long and low, is he into the contact then or not? If he's still curled up but with a lower neck I'd park this for a little while - you need to teach him to come to the contact correctly first, though that can be achieved by stretching it is sometimes easier to keep them up together a little first, because it's easier to monitor their balance like this.

Rather than chase him forward, I'd think about him always being in front of your leg - often this type will be quite deceptive - give you nothing in the hand and scuttle forward in a flap but not actually be on your aids. It's a bit on their terms rather than yours. So perhaps think about riding lots of transitions between and within the paces to make sure you are always the one who is deciding the pace, and this should also deliver him into the contact a little more positively each time.

If he does start to lean or rush, try not to over react - when they go from one extreme to the other it's tempting to do too much as a rider.. but you perpetuate the cycle then. IMO you need to be his rock, the thing that doesn't change, so he learns what you want from him - if he leans, show him how to be light by momentarily dropping the contact and restablishing it keeping the soft consistent feel you want uppermost in your mind. Again, really working the transitions and quality of the paces, engagement etc can really help with this.

It's sometimes quite slow to improve but stay positive, stay patient and stay consistent

 

[Cortez]

The answer to your question is "time, time and more time..." I have a Spanish horse that was an extreme case of this, and it took me 5 years to get him to trust any sort of touch on the reins. If the horse is also not truly forward and in front of the leg (as mine wasn't) then you have a big project in front of you. I found using a lifting hand (inside hand lifts the rein whenever horse is either heavy or behind the hand) and 1,000's of transitions to be the "cure", but really it was just time, trust and patience that solved the problem.

Give me a horse above the bit any day of the week.

 

[Aabri]

Thanks for the advice. I think definitely trust is an issue with him as he has never had one person ride him consistently. He's probably been pulled about a bit and therefore gaining trust will help with the evasion. When he realises working properly isn't painful and he can trust my hands a bit more we can hopefully progress further.

Hmmm. My experience is that these types take time and patience to improve, but you can definitely teach them to be confident and consistent to the contact with care and sensitivity.
How old is the horse, OP - and what's his previous training history?

 

[Aabri]

Thanks for the advice. And yes above the bit is definitely easier to deal with!

The answer to your question is "time, time and more time..." I have a Spanish horse that was an extreme case of this, and it took me 5 years to get him to trust any sort of touch on the reins. If the horse is also not truly forward and in front of the leg (as mine wasn't) then you have a big project in front of you. I found using a lifting hand (inside hand lifts the rein whenever horse is either heavy or behind the hand) and 1,000's of transitions to be the "cure", but really it was just time, trust and patience that solved the problem.

Give me a horse above the bit any day of the week.

 

[milliepops]

When they are so changeable I find it helpful to keep a picture in my minds eye of how I want it to feel, and ride towards that, rather than get over complicated by what he is doing in each second. That helps you to stay consistent and positive, rather than giving him lots of negative instructions.

Ive also found the lifting hand very useful, in my mind I'm saying to the horse "look out through the bridle" to try and get the feeling I want, which is just that - not above the bit but confidently moving up to it.

 

[Mike007]

Leaning is a horses way of deadening "noisy hands" as is being behind the bit. Not criticising as I have the same problem .50 years of riding and suddenly I have a horse who basically says I am a crap rider and need to get with the project. I have schooling and also my coach rides him , we both find him ultra sensitive.Get it right and he is a potential Valegro ,get it wrong and he is Muffin the mule!I have had to seriously reevaluate my riding.Good luck.

 

[xgemmax]

Leaning is a horses way of deadening "noisy hands" as is being behind the bit. Not criticising as I have the same problem .50 years of riding and suddenly I have a horse who basically says I am a crap rider and need to get with the project. I have schooling and also my coach rides him , we both find him ultra sensitive.Get it right and he is a potential Valegro ,get it wrong and he is Muffin the mule!I have had to seriously reevaluate my riding.Good luck.

Not necessarily? A rider can have super still hands and the horse lean on the bit

 

[milliepops]

Leaning is a horses way of deadening "noisy hands" as is being behind the bit. Not criticising as I have the same problem .50 years of riding and suddenly I have a horse who basically says I am a crap rider and need to get with the project. I have schooling and also my coach rides him , we both find him ultra sensitive.Get it right and he is a potential Valegro ,get it wrong and he is Muffin the mule!I have had to seriously reevaluate my riding.Good luck.

Not necessarily? A rider can have super still hands and the horse lean on the bit

I do agree with Mike in theory - if a horse is well trained from scratch by a very competent rider then you rarely come across a persistent leaning or going behind the bit issue as they are shown how to accept the contact in a soft way from the start - sure you'll have a little wobble now and then while they are learning...

But I do think that a lot of contact issues are created by less than perfect riding, sometimes over many years by many different riders. Noisy hands would probably be the cause for a lot of horses, I would also add that they may not appear busy but hands that pull back rather than feel forward, crooked riders, and those without good timing with their aids would compound the problem. Not to say that any of us are perfect, but I think it's good to be honest and self-critical about how our own weaknesses as riders produce horses with these kind of issues.
If you don't know what's causing something then you can't really address it

 

[Pigeon]

Oh my god my ex racehorse is like this. Sneaky He was super fussy and always behind the contact. I can't give failsafe advice because I'm still not totally happy with how he is in the contact, but he's a lot better than he was and this is what helps.

With him, I have been told leaning is better than curling... Because at least he is out to the contact and I am allowed to half halt! So to look at it as an intermediate ugly stage that has to be worked through.

Practising the half halt is what we are doing now. He needs to be really sharp off the leg and powering from behind or nothing happens, then we do 5/10m loops, squares and diamonds which he needs to sit back to do - I do an outside rein halfhalt going into each corner. I always need to remember to relax my elbows. Also when he does start to lift through the shoulders and lighten to be super allowing with the hands and not inadvertently stifle him. Last time we went out he did some super work, I think because he was quite forward.

Thank god the other one is easy!!

 

[scats]

Mine came to me completely behind the contact and with a natural head swing, from, I can only imagine, fiddling hands.

Trial and error showed me that actually chucking the contact at him was the worst thing, he lacked confidence and needed to know I was there, but everytime I picked the contact up, his head was on his chest.

The solution was months worth of encouraging him to come forward by keeping a light contact, and encouraging him forwards into this with my inside leg. Sometimes I would instinctively throw my reins at him and I would actually make the situation worse. I had to accept that it was a gradual process and at one point I felt like we were moving a millimetre at a time per session, but provided I felt we were going out the right way, I was ok with that. Also, chucking some poles in there encouraged him to stretch down to look at them, although I did find this had the opposite effect after a few times over them as he would shorten his neck further in anticipation, so I had to be clever about using them just enough and stopping before it had the opposite intended effect.

I also taught him the 'Stretch' command, like I do all mine. They get a subtle wither scratch and are told to 'Stretch', over time I train them that this means taking the contact down and forward. It's an absolutely brilliant thing to teach them, you can use it anywhere (we have stretchy hacks, stretchy schooling sessions, stretchy warm-ups and cool downs and stretchy lunging), and is actually really simple to teach them.

I find that I have to keep the contact consistent, and I rely very much on my seat and core with this horse, possibly more than with a normal horse -whatever one of those is.

 

[smja]

There's some very good advice here.

I would take a look at the horse's mouth at his next checkup to see if there's a reason why a contact would be uncomfortable - your dentist should be able to identify any concerns. I'd also look at his bit - mine is a lot happier and more secure in the contact since I changed to a full cheek snaffle from a loose ring.

The majority of improvement will come from schooling, but there's nothing to say that you can't help that along with bitting too