Behind the vertical - how to get her to balance herself better?

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Kittykins

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To cut an incredibly long story very short, I bought a 9 yr old warmblood mare called Delphi a few years ago, and within six months my circumstances had unfortunately changed so she had to go out on loan. She was very green at the time, but the girl who loans her has done a lot of work with her on the flat and over jumps, and she has improved immensely.

Last year she was off work due to injury, so this year her 'adoptive mum' Charlotte has been focused on bringing her back into work and basically just getting her going again. Although she has a nice temper she can be a bit of a tricky mare: it's very difficult to get her to concentrate or relax (or better still, both). She doesn't tend to buck or misbehave in that way, but she can get a bit belligerent at times, especially when you pick up a stronger contact on the reins, and become a bit silly and skittish when you ask her to go forward.

Anyway, I went up to visit about six weeks ago, and noticed at the time that she was constantly working behind the vertical (that is, when she didn't have her nose in the air looking at what was going on over the hedge). It seemed odd to me because I know that Charlotte rides her on a very long rein and is light with her hands, so I can't imagine that she's evading the bit in this way. She's ridden in a French link snaffle I think.

Yesterday they entered a local show hunter class (and came fourth - yey). This is a picture of Charlotte riding her:



and this is a picture of the judge riding her:



You can see in both how behind the vertical she is. I want to enter her in a few dressage competitions in the autumn - any ideas on how I can correct this, and get her properly extending through her back and neck? I seem to remember having a problem with getting her to extend in her canter in particular when I had her. As soon as I asked her to pick herself up in the canter, she'd simply fall back into trot.

I know you're all going to say 'more leg', but if I ONLY apply more leg she simply speeds up. What I need her to do is relax and balance herself more.

Feel free to tear apart Charlotte's position. We have a very similar style of riding, so I'll take on board the critique.
 
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Yep can see pics.
Firstly both riders are riding off the curb rein, the judge more so.
Looking at first pic the horse is just not working from behind, second pic its not working at all.
So how start fixing the problem.
Firstly ditch the double and replace with a suitable snaffle.
Then its about getting the horse to work from behind. When you first start asking for more forward the horse is going to run a bit. Doesn't have muscle or balance to handle more power. Just keep pushing forward then transition to walk. make the downward transition as much from body as you can. If you need to use the rein for downward trans then make it a swift positive movement then soften allowing horse to come forward in to walk.
Lots of circles at trot using both inside and outside flextion. Try not to use rein to turn, rather use outside leg to push horse around using inside leg for horse to bend around. Lots of spiraling in and out from the leg maintaining bend but only a very small amount.
Keep hands as still as possible. Horse is currently evading bit and needs to learn to trust it.
What you will find is that as muscle builds the horse will push more but start to go on forehand and probably start to become heavy in your hand. This is normal. Just keep working and eventually she will build enough strength to lift through shoulder and then the lightness of contact will come.
Resist all tendency for rider to fiddle or play with bit. Keeps hands still (but soft). Horse needs to learn to trust the contact before things will start to improve.
Good luck
PS Nice horse
 
Thank you, very helpful.

I should point out that she's not usually ridden in a double bridle, so I'm not sure why she was at the competition.

A couple more questions then - would you involve any canter work at this stage, or would we be better off working in trot until she's more balanced? And related - would direct transitions be worthwhile, or are they just going to stress her physically at this stage?

Also, just out of curiosity, how can you tell that the riders are riding off the curb rein? What should I be looking for?

Thanks!
 
Kittykins said:
Thank you, very helpful.

I should point out that she's not usually ridden in a double bridle, so I'm not sure why she was at the competition.

A couple more questions then - would you involve any canter work at this stage, or would we be better off working in trot until she's more balanced? And related - would direct transitions be worthwhile, or are they just going to stress her physically at this stage?

Also, just out of curiosity, how can you tell that the riders are riding off the curb rein? What should I be looking for?

Thanks!
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Agree with all PaddyMonty says.
Double bridle is likely to have been on the horse because it's a showing class.

Schooling work. Millions of circles, loops, serpentines, changes of rein and transitions between paces and within.

If using legs in trot makes her go too fast then slow the rising. Means you can slow down without using the reins and can also use your legs to improve the quality of the trot.

Regarding canter, you achieve better results with schooling in just trot as it is a balanced pace (two time).
 
And in addition; the rider in the 1st pic is looking down with straight arms which is encouraging the horse to be behind the vertical. Rider needs to sit up tall, look where she is going and bend the elbow. Incidentally the judge's wrists were bent inwards which also stops the horse taking the contact forwards.
 
Kittykins said:
Also, just out of curiosity, how can you tell that the riders are riding off the curb rein? What should I be looking for?
Click to expand...
Look at the angle of the shank of the curb to the mouth. Assuming the curb chain has been set correctly then the curb is fully engaged when bit is 45 degrees to mouth. Also in the judge pic look at the curb rein vs the snaffle rein. Curb rein is tight, snaffle rein is loose.

Kittykins said:
A couple more questions then - would you involve any canter work at this stage, or would we be better off working in trot until she's more balanced? And related - would direct transitions be worthwhile, or are they just going to stress her physically at this stage?
Click to expand...
Canter work has the most effect on building muscle provide that the horse is actually working from behind and that the rider is not hanging on to the rein for dear life. If both those conditions apply then canter is useful. Transitions up and down within a pace are as useful if not more useful than transitions between paces. Pushing for more within a pace immediately after leg yield etc can be very useful as the leg yield will encourage the hind to step under more.
I would avoid direct transitions from canter to walk or trot to halt at this stage. A horse needs to be balanced and working in to a consistent contact before these can be achieved properly. A transition is only useful as a training tool if it is a good transition. Poor ones simply reinforce the errors.
The most useful thing you will need in your tool box is bags and bags of patience. Only judge improvement month on month, not week on week or session on session. All this takes far more time than most people realise.
 
My mare was exactly the same when I got her

It's taken 6/7 months of consistent schooling to give her the strength to lift her whole frame up and really work from behind, forward into the bridle.

She just was not strong enough before to do it.

And even now when she gets tired she slips behind the verticle again, it's still early days for her. But it's slowly coming.
 
Daytona said:
My mare was exactly the same when I got her

It's taken 6/7 months of consistent schooling to give her the strength to lift her whole frame up and really work from behind, forward into the bridle.

She just was not strong enough before to do it.

And even now when she gets tired she slips behind the verticle again, it's still early days for her. But it's slowly coming.
Click to expand...

That must be really satisfying, do you mind me asking how often you have a lesson or have her schooled by a professional?
I only ask because I am thinking of buying again and love the idea of bringing a horse on but am interested how much support I would need.
 
I had the exact same issue with my boy when I first got him, now having him schooled once a week by my instructor and the difference in how he feels is amazing- its like riding a different horse! now I don't get funny looks for him being behind the vertical either! (for some reason people use to think I forced him in to it..) It's definitely the millions of transitions and circles that have helped, although we do most of the work in canter as he is more balanced and "happy" in that pace rather than walk or trot. He used to lean on the bit and pull your arms out of your sockets, now we do all steering and work through seat and legs as he is balanced enough to hold himself up without me on the reins.

If you feel like you're not making progress don't worry, sometimes you gain one thing and lose another, but they will all come together in the end!

Found this thread really useful as well- Thanks!
 
wren123 said:
That must be really satisfying, do you mind me asking how often you have a lesson or have her schooled by a professional?
I only ask because I am thinking of buying again and love the idea of bringing a horse on but am interested how much support I would need.
Click to expand...

I think the best advice on support to bring on an young or inexperienced horse is not so much 'how often' to use a pro, but much more 'which one'.

I would find myself someone like PaddyMonty, who really knows how long it takes to strengthen and balance a horse, how much patience it takes, and has the skill and experience to do it with out resorting to shortcuts, gadgets and coercive methods, which can leave you with a horse that is physically and mentally damaged, and with all kinds of evasions and problems. You need to follow your conscience and stick to your principles, though, when 'experts' tell you they'll have your horse made and competing in a few months. Generally the draw reins come out at that point.

Just think that Nuno Oliveira, in my humble opinion one of the great horsemen of the 20th century, wrote that it takes up to three years for a young horse to be able to start self-carriage. If you do it properly, though, the results are worth waiting for.
 
Aeolian said:
someone like PaddyMonty, who really knows how long it takes to strengthen and balance a horse, how much patience it takes, and has the skill and experience to do it with out resorting to shortcuts, gadgets and coercive methods,
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Thanks for your vote of confidence but I can not in all honesty lay claim to the above.
I'm currently on a journey from showjumper to dressage rider. Started off with a super horse but hes was crooked, lacking muscle and constantly behind the verticle.
It is purely thought the efforts of the two high listed BD judges that are training me that my knowledge is growing.
Was thinking I might do a thread on that journey from the start, the stages we've been through and the advice I've been given if any one would be interested.
 
PaddyMonty said:
Thanks for your vote of confidence but I can not in all honesty lay claim to the above.
I'm currently on a journey from showjumper to dressage rider. Started off with a super horse but hes was crooked, lacking muscle and constantly behind the verticle.
It is purely thought the efforts of the two high listed BD judges that are training me that my knowledge is growing.
Was thinking I might do a thread on that journey from the start, the stages we've been through and the advice I've been given if any one would be interested.
Click to expand...
ME please!!!
 
wren123 said:
That must be really satisfying, do you mind me asking how often you have a lesson or have her schooled by a professional?
I only ask because I am thinking of buying again and love the idea of bringing a horse on but am interested how much support I would need.
Click to expand...

Well actually I'm currently 7 months pregnant and have not ridden

I'm extreamly lucky to have a friend who is a awesome rider and trained her own horse up to inter II level, so she knows her stuff. She rides my horse and schools it 3/4 times a week.

If it was only me riding it would of defo took a lot longer

She has taken my mare from green as grass and just backed Novice level out competing just away to start elementary in 6/7 months.

So her riding my horse has been a major positive for me.

When I do ride I get weekly lessons but I still would not of progressed as quick as this.
 
3 months ago




Now



You can see she is slowly starting to lift her frame, she was just allowed time to build strength up and lift up herself which she only started doing this last 4 weeks, it's just like she has naturally progressed as her own speed.
 
Great thread! I'd read PaddyMonty's thread- what a clear concise way of explaining things.

OP, I think your horse is gorgeous and I'd love to see how she's going three months from now- I think she'll be amazing!
 
It's takes time to physically develop a horse .
Although of course age is an indicator of physical strength it's only part of the story horses develop at different speeds and the work they have done in their past has a huge effect on their ability to be strong enough to balance themselves in self carriage
I have a six yo ATM he arrived hunting fit as a five year and was described as strong he was not strong he was braced on the hand holding himself together on the rein getting by the only way he could .
He now feels weaker in some ways because he's moving freely and more loosely and you can clearly feel him struggling to maintain this better balance at times with out the reins to lean on.
It feels worse in some ways but ultimately he will be stronger and sounder for the unlearning process he has been through .
You just can't progress this work any quicker than the horse develops for they don't just have to learn the work ( in term of learning the half pass being able to do a change ) they have to gain the strength to do the work.
 
PaddyMonty said:
Thanks for your vote of confidence but I can not in all honesty lay claim to the above.
I'm currently on a journey from showjumper to dressage rider. Started off with a super horse but hes was crooked, lacking muscle and constantly behind the verticle.
It is purely thought the efforts of the two high listed BD judges that are training me that my knowledge is growing.
Was thinking I might do a thread on that journey from the start, the stages we've been through and the advice I've been given if any one would be interested.
Click to expand...

Please do. I am trying to convince a horse that had previously only ever showjumped to work "properly" on flat and so far it has taken a year of hacking/straight lines, LOADS of physio etc to straighten her out and persuade her to work from behind but even now those moments are fleeting, or so it feels. I am beginning to despair that we will ever get there so the idea of a separate thread appeals a lot....:)
 
Daytona said:
Well actually I'm currently 7 months pregnant and have not ridden

I'm extreamly lucky to have a friend who is a awesome rider and trained her own horse up to inter II level, so she knows her stuff. She rides my horse and schools it 3/4 times a week.

If it was only me riding it would of defo took a lot longer

Oh congratulations!
Thanks for your reply, I think my budget would only run to once a week lessons, so I would plan on taking longer than this.

She has taken my mare from green as grass and just backed Novice level out competing just away to start elementary in 6/7 months.

So her riding my horse has been a major positive for me.

When I do ride I get weekly lessons but I still would not of progressed as quick as this.
Click to expand...

Oh congratulations on your pregnancy! That is interesting, I would only be able to afford weekly lessons and lack the confidence I would be able to do the job as well as your friend is!
 
PaddyMonty said:
Thanks for your vote of confidence but I can not in all honesty lay claim to the above.
I'm currently on a journey from showjumper to dressage rider. Started off with a super horse but hes was crooked, lacking muscle and constantly behind the verticle.
It is purely thought the efforts of the two high listed BD judges that are training me that my knowledge is growing.
Was thinking I might do a thread on that journey from the start, the stages we've been through and the advice I've been given if any one would be interested.
Click to expand...

Another that would be really interested to read about your journey please!
 
LadyGascoyne said:
Great thread! I'd read PaddyMonty's thread- what a clear concise way of explaining things.

OP, I think your horse is gorgeous and I'd love to see how she's going three months from now- I think she'll be amazing!
Click to expand...

PaddyMonty, I'd be another interested in hearing all about your journey.

This thread has thrown me into a bit of a quandary now.

To give you a bit of history on Delphi, she was broken as a six year old and sold on to someone who used her for a few local competitions, although I'm not sure what discipline. After 18 months she was sold to a lady looking for something young to bring on, but they didn't gel and didn't make it to any competitions (or even off the yard a lot of the time), so after another 18 months she was sold to me, by then aged 9. I found her to be much greener than expected (I assumed she had been broken earlier and had just been off work for a long time) but with potential, but was forced to put her out on loan due to a dramatic change of circumstances that meant i couldn't afford the financial cost of keeping her, six months after I bought her.

My plan was to have her back within a year to 18 months, but as it's turned out (due to a run of bad luck for me), she's now been with Charlotte for three years and it will likely be another year or two before I can afford to keep her again. So she's now a 12 year old.

As mentioned previously, I try to visit regularly although I don't get up nearly as much as I'd like.

Charlotte has done all her schooling. I don't think she has a trainer or regular lessons at all on Delphi, although she does on her other (unrideable) horse (who is now being used as a brood mare - but that's for another thread). Charlotte predominantly does showjumping, and I have to say Delphi's jumping has improved dramatically, so she's doing something right there.

They do get on very well and have grown quite attached to each other. Also, they both like jumping and I don't jump at all.

So, my quandary: do I tell Charlotte that she's not riding her right and insist that she does better? Do I insist that she gets a dressage trainer? Do I make the effort to ride her myself, bearing in mind that I'm unlikely to get there more than once a week?

Do I take her off Charlotte entirely and figure out a way to manage the finances? (This one's unlikely to be honest!).

What would you do?

Shall I put all this in a new thread, as it's kinda off topic?

Questions questions!
 
PaddyMonty said:
Thanks for your vote of confidence but I can not in all honesty lay claim to the above.
I'm currently on a journey from showjumper to dressage rider. Started off with a super horse but hes was crooked, lacking muscle and constantly behind the verticle.
It is purely thought the efforts of the two high listed BD judges that are training me that my knowledge is growing.
Was thinking I might do a thread on that journey from the start, the stages we've been through and the advice I've been given if any one would be interested.
Click to expand...

PaddyM, you should definitely start the thread - look at the interest your post has generated. It doesn't matter that you are not a professional and you're embarked on a learning process (we all are, aren't we?), my point was that any professional worth using should have the attitude and approach you described. Some don't, believe me, and you must know it too.

Another good reason for your thread is that you can clearly articulate what you are doing and thinking with a horse. I've spent a lifetime pestering experienced horse people all over the world for their knowledge and advice, and some can explain, others can show you but can't really put it into words, and with some it's been like trying to milk a porcupine. So get threading, PaddyMonty!
 
I sometimes think students can convey stuff more clearly than professionals, assuming they've 'got it' of course. It's all about being able to communicate clearly, which you seem to be able to PM. It would be very generous of you and interesting to many of us to read your experiences.
 
Kittykins said:
So, my quandary: do I tell Charlotte that she's not riding her right and insist that she does better? Do I insist that she gets a dressage trainer? Do I make the effort to ride her myself, bearing in mind that I'm unlikely to get there more than once a week?

Do I take her off Charlotte entirely and figure out a way to manage the finances? (This one's unlikely to be honest!).
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Is it a bit harsh to go back to your rider with all this info based on one photo on a forum? It's just a second in time and mightn't give a full picture. If I was your rider i'd be mortified to have the owner come and say i wasn't riding right and 'insist' i ride better.

It seems like a lot of stress just because a horse is behind the vertical. It's not the end of the world, especially if the horse is happy and being cared for, has a caring rider on it and also you have other more important life issues going on? It might be easier to just suggest nicely that you'd like the horses education broadened and suggest you'd like her to get dressage lessons and not just focus on jumping.
 
It's not based on one photo on the forum. She goes like this at home too.

Having taken on board what the others are saying about doing months of work to get her to rebalance herself, and putting that together with having seen her in person a few times over the last few months and ridden her myself, I know what they are saying is correct.

I'd love for her to stay with Charlotte because they do get on so well, but at the same time I don't want her to be developing bad habits that will take months to correct.

So what I'm wrestling with is: what is the best way to go about getting Charlotte to rethink her training without anyone feeling hard done by or insulted?
 
Kittykins said:
It's not based on one photo on the forum. She goes like this at home too.

Having taken on board what the others are saying about doing months of work to get her to rebalance herself, and putting that together with having seen her in person a few times over the last few months and ridden her myself, I know what they are saying is correct.

I'd love for her to stay with Charlotte because they do get on so well, but at the same time I don't want her to be developing bad habits that will take months to correct.

So what I'm wrestling with is: what is the best way to go about getting Charlotte to rethink her training without anyone feeling hard done by or insulted?
Click to expand...

If you aren't going to take her back for 2 years and Charlotte is happy with how she is going, why would you say anything? If you were imminently taking her back, maybe. But as she has been with her for 3 years, and likely another two, I can't see the issue
 
Kittykins said:
It's not based on one photo on the forum. She goes like this at home too.

Having taken on board what the others are saying about doing months of work to get her to rebalance herself, and putting that together with having seen her in person a few times over the last few months and ridden her myself, I know what they are saying is correct.

I'd love for her to stay with Charlotte because they do get on so well, but at the same time I don't want her to be developing bad habits that will take months to correct.

So what I'm wrestling with is: what is the best way to go about getting Charlotte to rethink her training without anyone feeling hard done by or insulted?
Click to expand...


You have a low mileage 12 year old that is a tricky ride, she has improved but seems to be either going like a giraffe or btv, she is not accepting the leg when used, is ridden on a long rein with light hands, seems to be the basic scenario and you want to find a way forward without upsetting her regular rider.

I would think the bad habits are pretty well established, she has had little consistency since being broken, no ones fault just the way it has gone, I would suggest that Charlotte has a few lessons, if you can offer to help pay for them and go along to watch so you can discuss things with Charlotte afterwards knowing how the lesson actually went, rather than an edited version glossed over, if you can find a good trainer then there are 3 of you that can move forwards in the same direction.

I think that she is a mare that is tricky so Charlotte is doing the best she can, probably with limited experience on this type of horse, going btv can be difficult to feel especially if the alternative is head up ignoring the rider, not only is it difficult to feel it probably seems the better option so the rider gets into something that is safe and to some extent easy to maintain.

I would want to take horse and rider back to the basics, horse must accept the leg, go forward, stay in a rhythm and as long as the head is in front of her, rather than stuck up in the air, work on that until she allows the seat and leg to be used, most horses if ridden this way will fairly quickly accept the leg and take the contact forward but the rider needs to be consistent and never ask for too much in front.
One of mine drops btv as his preferred way of going, lots of hacking on a long, not loose rein, leg yielding to get him moving forward and accepting the leg has made a huge difference, in the school he does plenty of walking, again moving away from the leg before I pick up any real contact but it is a slow process to get them out of it, it is worse when they run from the leg.

I would give her a chance to see what she can do, in the long run it will help her riding, any training gives the rider more tools in the box and it suits you to continue with the current arrangement.
 
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