Behind the vertical.. is it a sin?

Jackson

Jackson

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This could be another stupid question.. I bought a horsey magazine last week and was browsing through, loads of the horses were BTV. I don't have a lot of experience with this, owing a horse who is a part bred giraffe, but I have always had it instilled in me that it's a complete sin to ride your horse in such a way to cause it. Is it? :confused: I watched a horse who was quite obviously overbent win a prelim not so long ago with a BD judge, many of the horses there were also,and dare I say it.. lots of horses on here are also working BTV...
 
Erm, well, bio mechanically speaking, a horse working btv cannot engage its back and quarters... Therefore incorrect.

The fascination with getting the head to look perfect is endemic and is quite pointless unless you can get the body to move correctly. It may look pretty, but underneath is an incorrect body...

Some horses CAN work properly and be btv but I can't remember seeing a horse who is touching his chest with its chin and his back end also under the rider... Something has to give, the spine is not infinitely mobile.

That's just me though, I joined the petition against rolkur yet see it happening still all the time.
 
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Agree with the above! Unfortunately my TB uses it as an evasion! It also reflects a lack of suppleness which is something which can be easily worked on!
 
Tallyho has summed it up perfectly for me. Btv always conjures up images of some poor horse with its head pinned to its chest & its hind legs several counties behind.
 
No it not a sin, its not the desired way of going of course but during the horses training 99% will at some point go through a phase of being behind the vertical. Remember those pics are a snap shot of a bigger picture. There is a world of difference between tight and over bent than dropping behind the vertical for a couple of steps.
 
Tallyho has pretty much summed it up. I can't count the number of times I have seen these photo competitions involving 'best outline' and a huge amount of the horses aren't engaging their quarters, and have their head behind the vertical.. and people think it's the proper way a lot of the time! Drives me crazy :( xx
 
And me. Magazines frustrate me. They show a pretty horse with those curves that sell, yet totally hollow... Then they have three pages of flatwork "clinics" talking about engagement... No wonder people are confused.

Then again, I haven't bought one for a very long time.
 
Yes, that's what I thought :):( Thanks.

In the magazine, I was refering to horses in the magazine part, not just the for sales!
I do understand that a picture is just a second of time and that horses do move their heads about...
 
Yep, Tallyho has my award for "saying what I wanted to say before I got here" too...

IMHO, it is a sin to deliberately ride your horse BTV. It's not a sin if your horse drops behind the vertical as you ride him forwards, as an evasion or because he's not fully established yet - provided the rider is aware it isn't desirable and isn't riding for that "over bent" look, or rather, is actively riding to avoid the horse coming BTV, whether successfully or not.
 
VioletStripe said:
Tallyho has pretty much summed it up. I can't count the number of times I have seen these photo competitions involving 'best outline' and a huge amount of the horses aren't engaging their quarters, and have their head behind the vertical.. and people think it's the proper way a lot of the time! Drives me crazy :( xx
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I am trying to bring my youngster on slowly and "correctly" and I get really frustrated when people tell me that all i need to do is just get her to stop poking her nose and bring her head down and chin in and she would be "there"! I want to scream no No NO! FIRST of all she needs to power forward and through, and build up the right muscles to raise her back THEN she will be "there"! ....and it's so often experienced horse people who just don't understand this.
 
Well at prelim it isn't a particularly terrible sin. The emphasis is on relaxation and obedience so if the judge feels the horse has both of these it won't be penalised too heavily for being btv. At higher levels it will be penalised far more heavily.
 
Apercrumbie said:
Well at prelim it isn't a particularly terrible sin. The emphasis is on relaxation and obedience so if the judge feels the horse has both of these it won't be penalised too heavily for being btv. At higher levels it will be penalised far more heavily.
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Yes, Not the judges but People do get hung up on the head though... Me included in the past and I understand why, it's because i was taught this way... Head first body will follow. That old 'get his nose in'. I guess this is why so many gadgets exist for the mouth and head.

P.s. just on the subject of being penalised more heavily at higher levels... Well, if this were true, why do we see so many incorrect horses at high levels? Rhetorical question, I don't expect an answer, its just an observation about how inconsistent dressage is.
 
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Of course it's not a sin killing people And coveting your nieghbours ass are sins BTV is a deviation from the ideal nothing more it's worth remembering some horse find it extremly easy to overbend and others almost can't its a question of conformation.
For the marks in dressage sure you will loose marks for being a bit BTV at times but if the rest is good you can still get a good mark the whole picture is want counts.
Of course head fixed to the chest is wrong but a youngster dipping behind now and again particularly if you back off them in the arena during a test to give them an easy time when they are settling to the job IMO theres a lot worse things .
 
Could someone post some examples of what behind the vertical looks like - and explain to me how they can tell the hind quarters aren't engaged? Trying to learn at the moment!

Thanks!
 
agree with Goldenstar (and you made me lol!)

playing devils advocate-people who claim they are" doing it slowly and correctly" are often seen to be dribbling round, hollow, unconnected and take 10 years to get out of prelim IME, whilst bitching about those with an elastic, connected, supple horse, that occasionally drops BTV whilst learning new things, or tense for a moment, or feeling fresh etc.

IMO stiff hollow neck and back are a far worse sin.

If i had a £1 for every time i saw an un-connected, hollow dribbly walk, being shoved in a hollow un-connected shuffly trot transition at BD prelim at the weekend, id be a rich girl today! I didn not see anything badly BTV for any period of time, and would say that being able to get any form of connection, even slightly BTV at times, is a far bigger issue that needs tackling!
 
i also hate seeing horses behind the vertical. i also think the whole 'get the head in and the rest will follow' a complete load of rubbish.

i have had horses stick their chins to their chests as an evasion, i prefer to work on balance, rythmn and suppleness first and usually, the horse will relax and start working in an outline from that.

the horse i ride can work beautifully when she wants to and when im not riding like an idiot, but i refuse to pin her head down and use all these contraptions to force her. if i go to do a test and she isnt working in an outline, i go for accuracy, balance, rythmn and harmony and still do alright :)

but i also agree that you see more people riding stiff, shuffly and hollow horses, than those working BTV. That also peeves me off.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
people who claim they are" doing it slowly and correctly" are often seen to be dribbling round, hollow, unconnected and take 10 years to get out of prelim IME
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That's certainly true in my experience of some of them round here :eek:

I do, however, see a lot of permanently BTV horses in the show ring and at unaff prelim/novice (though they don't tend to do well against better schooled animals tbf).
 
i have less of a problem with it in showing-you want to give the judge a supe light, super responsive, super sensetive ride, the riders arent aiming to have the horses incredibly engaged and powerful because its too much effort to ride like that all day (these are meant to represent hacks and hunters after all), so the horse has to be a bit off the contact and thus will often be a bit BTV. of course i dont like it when they are rolled up like a pretzel, but i dont think a show horse slightly BTV is really a prob or should be marked down if its only slight as the way of going is so diff to dressage.

if its a consistant issue in dressage it does prevent a true connection being taken up the levels, but actually, when training, if the horse dips BTV every so often, its no problem and sometimes taking them deeper helps to build the connection, not destroy it.

stiffness , hollowness and lack of forward thinking never help to improve anything however!
 
My horse going through the BTV stage:
001.jpg

paulmeeka001.jpg

when we first got him

bdcamplastlesson044.jpg

work in progress

IMG_6631.jpg


meekadressage002.jpg


IMG_6471.jpg


and last month:

meekaspar2.jpg
 
When I say it gets penalised heavier at higher levels I mean it should! I think they're much harsher on being btv in Europe than in the UK, at least that's the impression I get from European posters on here.
 
I struggle with my 20yr old welshy doing this.

3-5.jpg


He knows every trick in the book and it's a complete evasion on his part, as is the mouth opening and closing. I'm working on correcting it, but an onlooker will see us and think I'm pulling his head in when it's much more the opposite.
 
Custard cream, what is see is a horse on the forehand and leaning on the bit and you leaning forward and looking down too. This is pretty typical head in but backend way behind image. He has got you wrapped around his little hoof :D
 
charlie76 said:
My horse going through the BTV stage:
001.jpg

paulmeeka001.jpg

when we first got him

bdcamplastlesson044.jpg

work in progress

IMG_6631.jpg


meekadressage002.jpg


IMG_6471.jpg


and last month:

meekaspar2.jpg
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This series of photos shows exactly why you should not get to hung up about BTV in some young horses they can be BTV at times and it's not the end of the world .
 
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