Being sued over hunt incident?

[stencilface]

Oooh, I've never posted in here before! Query for a friend.

She hunts occassionally, on a now retired eventer who's 14. Recently she was out and could hear a horse thundering up behind her in a wide open space, but the rider was coming in close to her horse, very close for no good reason. Friend sensed her horse was not happy about this, although he's never kicked or anything before, you know when your own horse isn't happy. Anyway, just as she was turning round to request the lady back off and give her more space, her horse kicked and hit the rider, breaking their leg. Reading this now, I think why didn't my friend move her horse out of the way, but then, why would someone deliberately ride up someone elses backside, there's no telling that if my friend moved over the rider still wouldn't have followed her. Now my friend stayed with her, with others and was told to ride on etc, but didn't (from what I understand that would be quite a common occurrence) friend took the horse back to the wagon etc.

Now the rider is threatening to sue, I would guess because her horse wasn't wearing a red ribbon, as I can't think of any other reason. Now, the horse has evented up to advanced, so has been in plenty of crowded warm ups etc and has never kicked or anything like that before, hence the lack of ribbon. I guess I'm asking if you know of anything like this happening before?

She is taking advice from BE as a member, but I thought I would ask on here if anyone else has had a similar experience.

 

[popsdosh]

Yes a friend was sued for a similar thing out hunting and they had a red ribbon on . They had to pay a substantial claim and in the eyes of the courts all the red ribbon did was actually prove that my friend knew the horse may kick so was more culpable. The really sad part about it was the two parties were friends.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Animals are unpredictable and we all ride at our own risk. She isn't the first to be kicked and injured out hunting and won't be the last. I don't think she has a leg to stand on, forgive the pun. Stupid woman obviously could not hold her horse and rammed another on up the backside. No doubt some ambulance chaser has promised her a few million compensation.

 

[Lanky Loll]

Cooo maybe I should have a claim - was cantering alongside but slightly behind a friend across the first field at a meet when her horse kicked out and caught me square on the ankle chipping the bone. Never even crossed my mind to blame her as just one of those things! Her horse had never kicked out before and to my knowledge never did again. Got to love the current culture

 

[AdorableAlice]

Yes a friend was sued for a similar thing out hunting and they had a red ribbon on . They had to pay a substantial claim and in the eyes of the courts all the red ribbon did was actually prove that my friend knew the horse may kick so was more culpable. The really sad part about it was the two parties were friends.

Very good reason not to put green or red ribbons on a horse then.

 

[stencilface]

Yes a friend was sued for a similar thing out hunting and they had a red ribbon on . They had to pay a substantial claim and in the eyes of the courts all the red ribbon did was actually prove that my friend knew the horse may kick so was more culpable. The really sad part about it was the two parties were friends.

Ah, ok, so actually having a red ribbon is almost admission of it, so my friend may be better off in that instance. Although, seriously, thats the point of a red ribbon in the first place isn't it? Some people are so dumb, sad for your friend, and that another friend let something as accidental ruin (I presume) a friendship.

Animals are unpredictable and we all ride at our own risk. She isn't the first to be kicked and injured out hunting and won't be the last. I don't think she has a leg to stand on, forgive the pun. Stupid woman obviously could not hold her horse and rammed another on up the backside. No doubt some ambulance chaser has promised her a few million compensation.

Probably, I think she is also full of self entitlement (well it sounds like that, I've never met her!) I know a broken leg is not exactly ideal, but in that situation, I don't know how anyone dare sue for it.

I would guess my friend has PI insurance, but other than that isn't really in a position to be paying out for something that IMHO isn't her fault in the slightest.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Cooo maybe I should have a claim - was cantering alongside but slightly behind a friend across the first field at a meet when her horse kicked out and caught me square on the ankle chipping the bone. Never even crossed my mind to blame her as just one of those things! Her horse had never kicked out before and to my knowledge never did again. Got to love the current culture

It is a frightening culture isn't it. We live in an ever more litigious society, maybe we should ride wooden horses, but wait we might get a splinter in the arse. Makes me spit feathers, no doubt the lady with the broken leg will have delayed whiplash too, that will another few quid, which it should be remembered, we all pay for through ever increasing insurance premiums.

Time for me to go and feed, lets hope I don't get trodden on, farted on or bitten, I might just have to sue.

 

[Damnation]

Time for me to go and feed, lets hope I don't get trodden on, farted on or bitten, I might just have to sue.

*Snorts tea everywhere!*

 

[Orangehorse]

It is just a lottery as to which judge you get with these cases, re the Red Ribbon. Our NFU Secretary's husband is a QC and she said the NFU have successfully defended cases like this, as the red ribbon is to show that other riders should be aware, and not that it is an admision of liability.

 

[JillA]

So where is the negligence? Because that is what litigation is all about. If your friend wasn't negligent, she should be able to successfully defend but that will cost money. I suspect it is all bluff on the part of the lady who over rode her horse - best response? See you in court then, I have nothing to fear.

 

[Goldenstar]

There's been several successful claims in kicked out hunting cases .
Your friend needs to hand it over to her insurer .
It's my experience that ex event horses often tend to kick out hunting .
They often have not learnt the job slowly at a young age.

 

[popsdosh]

It is just a lottery as to which judge you get with these cases, re the Red Ribbon. Our NFU Secretary's husband is a QC and she said the NFU have successfully defended cases like this, as the red ribbon is to show that other riders should be aware, and not that it is an admision of liability.

Funnily enough my friend was insured with NFU

 

[stencilface]

There's been several successful claims in kicked out hunting cases .
Your friend needs to hand it over to her insurer .
It's my experience that ex event horses often tend to kick out hunting .
They often have not learnt the job slowly at a young age.

He's been hunted throughout his career really, and is well socialised. He can be a grump over feed, but no food was involved on the hunting field. No horses should be expected to cope with being rammed and crowded from behind surely, unless a hunt staffs horses or a racehorse?

 

[popsdosh]

So where is the negligence? Because that is what litigation is all about. If your friend wasn't negligent, she should be able to successfully defend but that will cost money. I suspect it is all bluff on the part of the lady who over rode her horse - best response? See you in court then, I have nothing to fear.

The negligence in the view of the judge was taking a horse hunting who you expected may kick. The argument was successfully put forward that anybody with a horse that may kick has the responsibility to make sure it is not in a position were it could do damage to others. This view may seem reasonable to anybody outside horses.

 

[Goldenstar]

He's been hunted throughout his career really, and is well socialised. He can be a grump over feed, but no food was involved on the hunting field. No horses should be expected to cope with being rammed and crowded from behind surely, unless a hunt staffs horses or a racehorse?

Hunt staffs horses are least likely to be rammed from behind because they oout in front or bringing up hounds .
Racehorses are the most likely IME to kick.
If a miracle more people don't get kicked the amount of people who use other peoples horses bums to stop their horses.it makes me really grumpy .

 

[Orca]

If a car driver goes into the back of the car in front, they are at fault. If a rider goes into the horse in front, they should also be seen as at fault.

A loose horse appeared from nowhere and ran into the back of my mare recently. She didn't react at all but I span her hind end away just in case, until the loose horse was caught. The loose horses owner was very apologetic and said, had he got kicked, it would have been neither mine or my mares fault.

I'd say anyone with an ounce of sense wouldn't barrel into the rear of an unknown horse and expect to get away with it. It's dangerous, it's bad etiquette and if anyone is culpable, for what ensued, it was that rider, not the rider of the horse who ultimately kicked.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I haven't hunted since 2004 and prior to that did 20 seasons. During that time I had many an 'incident', young horse kicked and killed a hound, old hunter who did know better ran down a fence and wiped the master out before dumping me, horse fall that brought two more down and I have been kicked on more than one occasion.

It was all part of choosing to partake in a dangerous hobby and everyone accepted that fact. Today every other advert on TV is for a claim company and it seems anything and everything has a compensation price, the whole industry needs an overhaul and fraud is rife.

If you cannot accept an unfortunate accident stay away from horses, they are dangerous at both ends and uncomfortable in the middle.

 

[oldie48]

My OH had a call today about the "accident" he'd recently had, he told them he'd clearly had a head injury as it had affected him memory and he couldn't recall the accident at all! they rang off.

I haven't hunted since 2004 and prior to that did 20 seasons. During that time I had many an 'incident', young horse kicked and killed a hound, old hunter who did know better ran down a fence and wiped the master out before dumping me, horse fall that brought two more down and I have been kicked on more than one occasion.

It was all part of choosing to partake in a dangerous hobby and everyone accepted that fact. Today every other advert on TV is for a claim company and it seems anything and everything has a compensation price, the whole industry needs an overhaul and fraud is rife.

If you cannot accept an unfortunate accident stay away from horses, they are dangerous at both ends and uncomfortable in the middle.

 

[AdorableAlice]

My OH had a call today about the "accident" he'd recently had, he told them he'd clearly had a head injury as it had affected him memory and he couldn't recall the accident at all! they rang off.

I know that feeling, endless calls after my car was flattened by a lorry years ago. It was parked at the end of a cul de sac and I was lay on the sofa watching the racing. My neighbour saw the lorry try to turn and hit the car. Lorry cleared off and my insurers could not get a settlement so it cost me dearly. I started getting calls that still happen now some 6 years on, one of the scumbag companies suggested I was in the car as I could get more due to my injuries.

 

[Goldenstar]

Me too , at one point I had them ringing me when I had coming together with another car and I broke my leg trying a horse and the phone was red hot for six months .

 

[HashRouge]

This is slightly different as no-one was threatening to sue, but when I was 14 my horse broke the YO's leg (I know ) and she tried, unsuccessfully, to claim against our insurance. A very nice man from the NFU came out to talk to me and, once he knew the circumstances, said that there was zero chance of them paying out because she (the YO) was responsible, not me. My horse is a known kicker and we were hacking together down a single track road (wide enough for large agricultural vehicles) when her horse refused to go past a puddle. It really wouldn't go so I asked if I should go past (she was in front) and she said yes. I kept my horse well over to the other side of the road as I went past, but unfortunately her mare then swung it's bum sideways (quite dramatically) into my mare, who lashed out. I think the reason she was deemed liable is because a) I was 14 and so she was the responsible adult, b) she had told me to pass, c) she knew my mare was a kicker, and d) the incident came about because she couldn't control her horse (i.e. mine only kicked because hers swung sideways). Luckily for us there was no question of suing - I think she wanted to claim on our Public Liability insurance because she didn't have any personal injury insurance. She didn't hold me responsible as she was a practical horse person and knew that accidents happen, and also that I had been riding this horse (always kept on her yard) for three years with no incidents at that point, so was obviously adept at managing her. We are still friends

I don't know if that is any help though, my legal knowledge is very different so I'm not quite sure what happens when someone tries to sue!

 

[Kat]

My advice as a lawyer would be to pass it on to your insurers and not take it personally. It is what you pay your premium for.

For those being hounded by claims management companies. Take their details and report them to the ombudsman -they are a bloody menace giving us a bad name!

 

[Maesfen]

Her insurers need to stress the fact it wouldn't have happened if the woman had been in control of her own horse. The accident was virtually self inflicted with only one person to blame and that wasn't the horse that kicked.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Seems to me clear-cut. The rider coming up fast and obviously out of control from behind this horse was to blame; she obviously hadn't got either any control, common-sense or manners - or a combination of all three - and IMHO her own stoopid fault she got kicked. What else did she expect FFS?

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

I got my shin broken years ago when a horse ran backwards into my horse then kicked out as it wasn't liking being confined with so many horses on either side of it.

Didn't even think of taking it further as it was just one of those things that happened.

I rode a mare that kicked and all I did was take her off to oneside with my friend or to the back of the ride. People still shoved their horses up her ass despite me shouting to back off and she leathered quite a few peoples horses despite this. Just goes to show that you can try and keep yourself out of the way and make sure you aren't being a danger and people will still use your horses butt as brakes

Op I don't think she really has a claim if she ran into your friend. This sue culture these days is getting worse and until the judges realise that riding is a choice hobby and knowing the risks is part of it then these stupid claims will continue to get attention.

 

[Alec Swan]

Seems to me clear-cut. The rider coming up fast and obviously out of control from behind this horse was to blame; she obviously hadn't got either any control, common-sense or manners - or a combination of all three - and IMHO her own stoopid fault she got kicked. What else did she expect FFS?

Before the 'claim' culture crept in, say 40(?) odd years ago, we took responsibility for our own actions, and had the injured party not placed themselves in the path of danger, then they wouldn't have ended up injured, would they?

Do I have a case? Can I make a claim? Am I on an earner? As you say Jods, FFS!

Alec.

 

[madlady]

This is just ridiculous - the person who got kicked is quite clearly at fault!

What would this person have done if her horse had refused a fence resulting in her falling off and breaking a leg - sued the horse?

Dear me she obviously shouldn't be on the hunting field if she can't accept some risk.

 

[D66]

If this took place in a wide open space I'd suggest the woman was looking for a 'soft landing" by aiming for, and bumping into your horse. If she had been thrown at speed into a hedge, ditch or solid object she could easily have been killed.

 

[skint1]

This reminds me of an incident that happened to my TB gelding's share rider a couple of years ago. She was riding him out with her friend (also a fellow livery) when my gelding kicked out and damaged the friend's riding boot. Thankfully it wasn't worse. My poor share rider ended up buying her a new pair of boots, and they were not cheap, mostly to preserve the friendship I guess.

I feel that my gelding was not at fault and it kind of peeved me that he was blamed. This actually wasn't the first time one of my horses had booted this particular rider in the leg whilst on a hack. Not saying my horses are perfect but they've never done it to anyone else before or after.

I personally believe this rider probably rides like a selfish twit, seen some evidence to support this view with my own eyes, but in this blame culture we live in personal responsibility appears to be in short supply.

 

[smja]

As long as your friend didn't slow down unexpectedly (i.e. other rider ran up horse's bum unnecessarily), then I shouldn't think she has any claim.

I have used other people's horses to stop before, but never without their full knowledge and permission!