Being sued over hunt incident?

[Lizzie66]

The negligence in the view of the judge was taking a horse hunting who you expected may kick. The argument was successfully put forward that anybody with a horse that may kick has the responsibility to make sure it is not in a position were it could do damage to others. This view may seem reasonable to anybody outside horses.

The circumstances in your friends case may well be different.

In this instance the 3rd party ran into the other person either deliberately or because they lacked control. The space was apparently more than sufficient for the 3rd party to have avoided the other horse altogether so therefore the responsibility is with the person who got kicked to have control of their horse.

To me red ribbons should be in horses that may kick out unprovoked at things passing, not in horses that may kick if someone rams into them. At the end of the day any horse may kick out if they feel sufficiently threatened and a strange horse ramming it from behind is pretty threatening.

 

[stencilface]

Thankyou for all your replies, you have made us feel a bit better! She has also not heard anything yet from the solicitors or anything so fingers crossed someone has made her see sense.

All of your responses make perfect sense, the mind boggles at people doesn't it who think its acceptable to ram another horse, then moan because you got kicked.

 

[EQUIDAE]

Looking at it from a different point of view - if you are riding your horse and a car passes too close and the horse kicks it you are not legally liable as it is an unforseen accident. The same could be extended to another horse.

 

[Mike007]

My advice as a lawyer would be to pass it on to your insurers and not take it personally. It is what you pay your premium for.

For those being hounded by claims management companies. Take their details and report them to the ombudsman -they are a bloody menace giving us a bad name!

Sigh, we both know that whilst you are right ,nobody here is listening.

 

[Luci07]

I had a revolting livery try to sue me for the same thing. What an utter cow. She rammed into me when I was in front and my horse kicked out. He didn't break anything but did wound her. I was highly apologetic and my horse was known to lash out sometimes. She tried to sue. I was all for letting my insurance sort it out till Petplan showed the garbage she had written about me. I had visits from Petplan going through my statement (well over an hour) and turning up unannounced the second time. The investigator even went to my yard to take statements from the YO. This girl became a joke with her limping when she though she was being watched and then ok when she thought no one was looking. She also had a history of being litigious as had sued her previous employer as well. Because she had written so many lies in her statement, I really dug deep and asked around to give Petplan ammunition back. This included references from various hunt pro's that she was out of control and deemed dangerous when out hunting and a reference to the level I had ridden at. She didn't win.

 

[Stark Dismay]

I read this thread recently, and held my tongue because my thoughts clearly go against the grain of popular thought here. In my opinion there is little to no excuse for any horse that kicks out, and if a horse IS known to kick it should be wearing a red ribbon, and even if it has never kicked before but the rider senses it is in a situation that may cause it to kick out it should be held well away from other horses or removed from the field altogether. Even if it is, in their eyes, being provoked by another rider riding up behind.

A month ago, in the space of a week, I witnessed an adult friend and the child of a friend being kicked while mounted out hunting by different horses on different days. The adult was riding beside me on a midweek day, and we were both very well aware of a point to pointer that had been running backward at speed and cow-kicking out at anything and everything all day. We had managed to avoid it for 3 hours of very poor behaviour but while sitting still in a gateway, well away from it, it suddenly managed to produce an astonishing turn of backward speed and extraordinary reach to kick her in the shin. She was unhurt, by some miracle.

The child, was not so lucky. Just a couple of days after the incident above, we were at a large joint meet of our hunt and a neighbouring hunt. Another neighbouring hunt had enjoyed their invite to this venue so much the previous year that quite a lot of them turned up too. Unfortunately, on this occasion a child was kicked by a broncing horse through no fault of his own - he had proven himself through the season to be a regular and competent rider and was in the wrong place at the wrong time, in proximity to a poorly behaved horse that was not being held back by it's rider. I saw everything, as I had decided this particular meet was such a scrum that I would hold very well back with my child, so I happened to be on a bank looking down on the accident as it happened.

I am not sure whether this year has been unusually unlucky, as I have never witnessed another rider being kicked before, or whether poorer behaviour by horses has become more frequent on the hunting field. Whichever of these has occurred I still believe the onus is on the rider to ensure that their horse does not kick another horse or person. I mentioned at the start of my post that I had held my tongue over the subject, but in light of the recent tragic death of a child I wish I had spoken up sooner. I don't know why so many people are being kicked, but the sooner everyone takes responsibility for their own horses actions whether they are unusual or not the sooner we'll see an improvement in manners again.

If your horse kicks and injures someone, or their horse, your should be insured. Suck it up, hand over your insurer's details, take your horse home, and work on it's behaviour. Don't blame whoever you kicked - it may well have been that they were struggling to control their horse but it may also have been the first time for that too - your horse has never kicked, their horse has never bolted, who is more in the wrong? Don't bandy blame around, just do the decent thing and ensure it never happens again. No one wants to be kicked. Everyone has a responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen if at all possible.

 

[Goldenstar]

No horse can be guaranteed not to kick when some one out of control gallops into the back of you.
I hate hate when people use the horse you have trained so carefully as a buffer to stop.

 

[stencilface]

I'm sorry, but the post above is utter rubbish in this case. The horse doesn't kick. (not your post GS - you got in before me!)

An update, my friend has received a letter which is basically all untrue and tried to insinuate my friend was out of control etc etc (there's no way that would be true!) and that she's inexperienced (again, way off the mark!). There is a witness to the incident, and the person who was kicked has had previous warnings about getting too close. The insurance companies are handling it, and I expect my friend may have to accept some of the liability as thats how it goes, but its just very frustrating. This is more in my mind now, especially in light of the tragic incident at the weekend.

 

[ycbm]

Stark Dismay, I don't think your examples bear any relation to the situation where an out of control rider is kicked because they canon into the backside of a well controlled horse. Both the horses in your examples should have been sent home if they weren't voluntarily taken home. The misbehaving horse in your examples caused the damage to a totally innocent third party. In this case, the damage was caused to the rider of the misbehaving horse which provoked the kick.

Can you clarify please - do you believe that no horse, however much it has been frightened or provoked by another, should ever kick?

 

[paddi22]

stark dismay - in that case every horse would have a red ribbon. Even the quietest horse can kick out if someone runs into the back of it at speed. The situations you mentioned bear no relation to the original post?

 

[stencilface]

stark dismay - in that case every horse would have a red ribbon. Even the quietest horse can kick out if someone runs into the back of it at speed. The situations you mentioned bear no relation to the original post?

Perhaps they're a rocking horse jockey?

 

[paddi22]

Perhaps they're a rocking horse jockey?

those dangerous rocking horses need their own ribbons to show how dangerous are.. they've a filthy buck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6MbULtF1Pg

 

[honetpot]

I read this thread recently, and held my tongue because my thoughts clearly go against the grain of popular thought here. In my opinion there is little to no excuse for any horse that kicks out, and if a horse IS known to kick it should be wearing a red ribbon, and even if it has never kicked before but the rider senses it is in a situation that may cause it to kick out it should be held well away from other horses or removed from the field altogether. Even if it is, in their eyes, being provoked by another rider riding up behind.

A month ago, in the space of a week, I witnessed an adult friend and the child of a friend being kicked while mounted out hunting by different horses on different days. The adult was riding beside me on a midweek day, and we were both very well aware of a point to pointer that had been running backward at speed and cow-kicking out at anything and everything all day. We had managed to avoid it for 3 hours of very poor behaviour but while sitting still in a gateway, well away from it, it suddenly managed to produce an astonishing turn of backward speed and extraordinary reach to kick her in the shin. She was unhurt, by some miracle.

The child, was not so lucky. Just a couple of days after the incident above, we were at a large joint meet of our hunt and a neighbouring hunt. Another neighbouring hunt had enjoyed their invite to this venue so much the previous year that quite a lot of them turned up too. Unfortunately, on this occasion a child was kicked by a broncing horse through no fault of his own - he had proven himself through the season to be a regular and competent rider and was in the wrong place at the wrong time, in proximity to a poorly behaved horse that was not being held back by it's rider. I saw everything, as I had decided this particular meet was such a scrum that I would hold very well back with my child, so I happened to be on a bank looking down on the accident as it happened.

I am not sure whether this year has been unusually unlucky, as I have never witnessed another rider being kicked before, or whether poorer behaviour by horses has become more frequent on the hunting field. Whichever of these has occurred I still believe the onus is on the rider to ensure that their horse does not kick another horse or person. I mentioned at the start of my post that I had held my tongue over the subject, but in light of the recent tragic death of a child I wish I had spoken up sooner. I don't know why so many people are being kicked, but the sooner everyone takes responsibility for their own horses actions whether they are unusual or not the sooner we'll see an improvement in manners again.

If your horse kicks and injures someone, or their horse, your should be insured. Suck it up, hand over your insurer's details, take your horse home, and work on it's behaviour. Don't blame whoever you kicked - it may well have been that they were struggling to control their horse but it may also have been the first time for that too - your horse has never kicked, their horse has never bolted, who is more in the wrong? Don't bandy blame around, just do the decent thing and ensure it never happens again. No one wants to be kicked. Everyone has a responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen if at all possible.

Unless I am mistaken you have to take pointers out with a hunt so many times to have their qualification card signed so they can race. This leaves them in a dilemma as most are not the normal sort of hunter, they try and keep out of the way but I think if you have any sense you give them a very wide berth.
When I and my daughters hunted you very rarely saw a naughty horse or pony, usually because they have learned the job cubbing or if they did not settle most did not get taken again, now you have people joining a hunt because they are following a trail and perhaps do not realise what it takes to makes a good hunter.
Hunting is a high risk sport so the first thing you have to learn is to spot potential trouble and keep away from the horse in fronts backend. The fact that more do not get kicked I think is amazing and a horses natural reaction is to kick when it feels threatened so as far as I am concerned if you get up close that the risk you take.

 

[frostyfingers]

There is responsibility on both sides here - absolutely if your horse is a known kicker you either don't take it out until the problem is sorted or you make damn sure that you keep out of everyone's way. Too many people assume that putting a red ribbon on absolves them of everything. However, it is also your responsibility not to cannon into other people's backends or generally invade their horses space and make a fuss if you get kicked.

I took my horse out hunting having been told he didn't kick, but not having hunted him myself put a tape on his tail, hung around at the edges and back and let people know that I didn't think he'd kick, but since it was our first time out together I wasn't 100% sure. I did everything I could and yet as we were in a narrow grass lane someone came galloping up behind and the next thing I knew he'd barged into me and my horse kicked out, it fortunately only got his horse on the chest. I apologised profusely, took my horse to one side and reprimanded him (even though in my heart I knew it wasn't his fault) and checked the other horse was ok - the rider's response, "sorry, it was the only way I could stop" and he then spent the whole of the rest of the day saying "mind that horse it kicks". I sucked it up but was livid and eventually someone else said "oh come on if you hadn't gone into it you wouldn't have been kicked" which was kind of them but didn't make a difference. It really pissed me off, so much so that I hunted elsewhere for the rest of the season. It was the only time my horse ever kicked anyone in the remaining 3 seasons that I hunted him.

If I ended up barging into someone and got kicked I would consider it my fault.