ben, lunging and schooling... cc

Queenbee

Queenbee

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Ok then, got my brave pants on and am going to post some videos that ive just put on youtube (very scary!) I decided to go up today after taking daisy the dog to the vet and watch 'c' ride Ben in the school, she is 15 and rides him during the week, mainly hacking, although we are starting to introduce schooling now too. I pretty much just videoed it an watched. He was majorly lazy on the lunge today, although i normally have a lunge whip, and cant stand the dangling lunge line:eek: scares me to death!Today he just was not in the mood... would far rather be doing proper work or in the stable eating hay thank you very much:rolleyes:, so after that video, I swapped over with 'c' and gave him a little trot on the lunge for a couple of circuits, not that he NEEDED it, more that he didn't want to do it, cant have him dictating:rolleyes:

Then I took a couple of ridden videos (as i said just watched, didnt want to give pointers, wanted to get a feel for them together first) she did walk him in first, but I was pratting around with the dog so didn't video at that point.

The last video, I asked her to just do a couple of circuits to finish off with transitions.

I dont want critique on the rider, she is 15 and doing well in my opinion. Ive given her the following pointers to work on.

1 longer reins, he is fighting the contact, but when the reins are slipped he drops his head and reaches forward... thats what i want for now, so drop to washing line, let him drop his head and slowly shorten for a very light contact, as much as he can take without affecting his head carriage for now.

Stretch out, long and low and free rein as much as work, to develop the muscles.

Less lengthy trots, lots more transitions... I think you could already see the difference with those few transitions at the end.

He is falling through the shoulder... need to fix that, and the falling towards the gate, have told her to get on his case before this happens, since she knows he does it she can start to prevent it before he thinks it. I think shes trying to prevent it more with the reins at the moment so hes just bending:p so more outside leg a few strides before a corner or gate, or a schooling whip just to tap the shoulder as back up, and no change in contact on the rein, pulling him just makes it easier for the shoulder to fall out.

I think she is doing really well and she is learning loads, just as he is, I would like to see her riding longer, more contact for the leg, but then when I was her age I used to ride with my knees around my ears, and she wants to go into the racing industry, so not going to go there.



Finally a bit of pole work, just three trotting poles, help strengthen ben and vary his work.

Ok, so onto ben... I think his bum is developing nicely now, and he is working at a nice pace, nice and steady. there are moments when he starts to track up really nicely and im seeing a lot less of the toe dragging. He was a bit sluggish today, so I know we need some more impulsion and a bit more elevation from these vids. His head carriage is a bit high, and I feel he needs to just have his head, I get the feeling its a confidence issue, he isnt confident in the contact yet, so it makes him tense so the focus is no contact and relax!

anyway, there is more im sure! but those are just my thoughts for where/what next with him and how he is going.

He is working far better in the school, he had no idea what to do, wouldnt walk straight, choppy irregular trot, wouldnt work his corners, wouldnt stand straight... so he is so much better, we've got the relaxed steady neddy now, but will need to add some refined oomph later on, so, going to try and add these videos... please nothing negative... some constructive criticism and where next ideas and feed back for ben and his ongoing schooling etc is what im looking for here.

Thank you all :D
Lunging
[YOUTUBE]XzKR4Yxhx5o[/YOUTUBE]

Schooling 1
[YOUTUBE]2M1PZanLjbQ[/YOUTUBE]

Schooling 2
[YOUTUBE]HbgvwIFwVJI[/YOUTUBE]


Transitions (I know, need lots of practice!)

[YOUTUBE]3TD13IFCFkc[/YOUTUBE]

and if anyone has had a bad day and needs cheering up... this is an absolute must see... ive seen it for years and it always makes me giggle
[YOUTUBE]nk20GptM9Is[/YOUTUBE]


Thanks everyone... Next time you can cc me too :D
 
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Taken ages to watch! Patience QB! Patience! :D

You have been very nice about the rider, and even nicer about baby Ben! A bit lazy? He's on a different planet.

There is no way your rider can do anything with his shoulder, create bend nevermind a contact when Ben is in slumberland. Where is that contact ever going to come from? There is absolutely zero impulsion coming from anywhere in that frame I'm afraid. He is pulling himself along wishing it would end. Before she gets into any sorting out of his body whereabouts, you and the rider need to get him going forward and swinging out. Even in short bursts at a time, build it up.

Yes there is rhythm, but the rhythm of a lullaby. I want to go to sleep :).

My suggestion, is just to forget fiddling about with reins, head, shoulders whatever, get that back powering up, move that back end, start the motor! Wake up Ben! He's fast asleep.

He's so lovely QB and very clever about getting away with giving absolute minimum :D
 
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Agree with tallyhoho, forget about anything other than forward! Thanks for the last video, had a bad day and it did cheer me up :)
 
tallyhohoho! said:
Taken ages to watch! Patience QB! Patience! :D

You have been very nice about the rider, and even nicer about baby Ben! A bit lazy? He's on a different planet.

There is no way your rider can do anything with his shoulder, create bend nevermind a contact when Ben is in slumberland. Where is that contact ever going to come from? There is absolutely zero impulsion coming from anywhere in that frame I'm afraid. He is pulling himself along wishing it would end. Before she gets into any sorting out of his body whereabouts, you and the rider need to get him going forward and swinging out. Even in short bursts at a time, build it up.

Yes there is rhythm, but the rhythm of a lullaby. I want to go to sleep :).

My suggestion, is just to forget fiddling about with reins, head, shoulders whatever, get that back powering up, move that back end, start the motor! Wake up Ben! He's fast asleep.

He's so lovely QB and very clever about getting away with giving absolute minimum :D
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He he, yes I agree with that, to begin with he was very erratic, so the main focus was just to get a steady rhythm, but I completely agree he is so laid back with it he is almost asleep! :D This is one of the reasons I have asked her to start transitions with him, I usually carry an nice schooling crop, and have a much longer leg, so I give him a 'gentle but firm dig' with my heel... it wakes him up :D He seems to be at his best in the first few strides, but quickly fades into zombieland. I completely agree that the impulsion is needed now, but I had to get him a bit more steady and relaxed, now thats erm, achieved, my focus is to as i said drop the contact and get him sharper and awake. :D

He is going out for a hack tomorrow, off thursday as my dog is in the vets having an op and then the next day a small schooling session and a walk out hack afterwards. then its the weekend off for him.

Thanks for your input and comments, and I completely agree with what your saying, less fuss with the hands and a rocket up his @rse:p
 
He looks like such a lovely boy but what a little monkey :D

She is either in front of his movement or behind it because he isn't consistently moving forward. I actually think she has some balance issues, she looks a bit like me before I had some regular lunge lessons to distinguish between using my core rather than the rein to balance myself. I know you said no rider cc but that won't be helping Ben at all.

She also seems to hassle, hassle, hassle with her legs. I say drop the contact, pick up a schooling whip and use it quickly consistently and as an aid to get him moving forward. *disclaimer do not beat the horse with it*

Just read your next post, drop the leg. Eventually you will want him to move with a whisper right? Use the stick and then back up with quiet leg, eventually losing the stick and left with quiet leg :)
X
 
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ridefast said:
Agree with tallyhoho, forget about anything other than forward! Thanks for the last video, had a bad day and it did cheer me up :)
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thats ok, glad you like it, the white springer sings on command too:D and duffy's mercy is his other favourite... been wanting to put the choir on you tube for years:p going to have to do a vid of him singing to mercy :D
 
After watching the second video ( I can only assume he crashed into the side when the camera dropped at the start) hacks with trees might be amusing :D He's adorable! Just reminds me of a schoolboy away in his own (much more fun) world :D
 
I'm no expert, but the little lass riding does what I used to do which is hunch!

I used to hunch myself over and put myself in front of the movement when riding. Because I wasn't straight and sitting into the saddle, I wasn't creating enough impulsion so my horse was running everywhere on his fore and obviously couldn't achieve a good working outline and we struggled with flexing etc.

I had a few lessons on the lunge without stirrups to get me to learn to sit up, shoulders back and drive with the butt. thinking about what other people have said, maybe if your jockey sits back and drives forward more, he might find it easier to start working properly when the weights off his front end?

I also noticed her hands were always very low, perhaps if she brought them up and turned her thumbs up she might find it easier to set her shoulders back? My instructor always used to tell me that you shouldn't lower your hands to try and lower your horses head, you should keep the hands as they are and push the back end up into the front end to lower the head.

Sorry if this is useless drivel, or stuff you already know, trying to put into words what my instructor told me a few months ago and it seems to have worked for me as the videos of me and my horse were quite similar to the ones you've posted :D:D

He's a beautiful boy though, very jealous :) and love the last video, made me chuckle soooo much!!! :p

ETA: Sorry just re-read OP and saw you didn't want rider critique, I also think she's doing a fabby job especially for 15!!!! just spouting what worked for me, as when I learnt where the proper buttons were my horses way of going improved dramatically :) :) agree through she's doing great!
 
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Aww I agree he is defo getting away with the bare minimum! Do you hack him out much? Is he forward then? I kind of liked him best in the first schooling vid, he seemed to have a bit more oomph, I'm no expert but just thought I'd give a little input so you know I watched :-)
 
PandorasJar said:
After watching the second video ( I can only assume he crashed into the side when the camera dropped at the start) hacks with trees might be amusing :D He's adorable! Just reminds me of a schoolboy away in his own (much more fun) world :D
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That made me smile. Exactly it. Bless him!
 
PandorasJar said:
After watching the second video ( I can only assume he crashed into the side when the camera dropped at the start) hacks with trees might be amusing :D He's adorable! Just reminds me of a schoolboy away in his own (much more fun) world :D
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Ha ha! You're almost right! He has this amazing ability to almost but not quite crash into jumps and you have to suck your entire body into his to not end up smacking your knee or leg on a wing... he does it lunging too... although not so much now... it only happened the once in the session so Vaaaast improvement, but he is a lummox and yes, a total day dreamer:o;):D:D
 
Lol! You said it QB! Rocket... Lol!!

Good plan. Lots of hacking and I think the lunge work is a great idea. Then you can work on his impulsion and rhythm at this early stage without a rider impeding his balance as he builds up much needed muscle in his back and neck. You can get the transitions in much easier. I agree with using whip. That rope was making me nervous too! :eek:

The hacking out and work in hand as you suggested will work wonders at this stage I reckon. Good luck!! So looking forward to seeing him in spring, I don't think any of us will recognise him!
 
sophiebailey said:
I'm no expert, but the little lass riding does what I used to do which is hunch!

I used to hunch myself over and put myself in front of the movement when riding. Because I wasn't straight and sitting into the saddle, I wasn't creating enough impulsion so my horse was running everywhere on his fore and obviously couldn't achieve a good working outline and we struggled with flexing etc.
I agree, she is forward and a bit hunched, but BP's dont help with that and i and her parents insist she wears one at all times on ben.

I had a few lessons on the lunge without stirrups to get me to learn to sit up, shoulders back and drive with the butt. thinking about what other people have said, maybe if your jockey sits back and drives forward more, he might find it easier to start working properly when the weights off his front end?
Been there, done that (with me not her!) so I know exactly what you're on about, would loooove to lengthen those legs and open those hips up a bit:p Its something we have to look at for sure:)
I also noticed her hands were always very low, perhaps if she brought them up and turned her thumbs up she might find it easier to set her shoulders back? My instructor always used to tell me that you shouldn't lower your hands to try and lower your horses head, you should keep the hands as they are and push the back end up into the front end to lower the head.
I have to say that if done right, Im cool with the lower hands, she keeps them quite low and open, Im not sure if raising them will do him good at the moment i find it more inviting for youngsters to ride that way
Sorry if this is useless drivel, or stuff you already know, trying to put into words what my instructor told me a few months ago and it seems to have worked for me as the videos of me and my horse were quite similar to the ones you've posted :D:D
Not at all, i find everything constructive, especially at this point, hes only been backed for six months and this is probably about his sixth session in the school (the first two were a waste of time so we only just picked it back up and now he seems much more able to cope)

He's a beautiful boy though, very jealous :) and love the last video, made me chuckle soooo much!!! :p
thank you and thank you :D

ETA: Sorry just re-read OP and saw you didn't want rider critique, I also think she's doing a fabby job especially for 15!!!! just spouting what worked for me, as when I learnt where the proper buttons were my horses way of going improved dramatically :) :) agree through she's doing great!
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Its not rider critique so much as critique to improve ben, so notes on how to help her with riding him, to get him better... thats what im looking for and thats what you have given :D

mandwhy said:
Aww I agree he is defo getting away with the bare minimum! Do you hack him out much? Is he forward then? I kind of liked him best in the first schooling vid, he seemed to have a bit more oomph, I'm no expert but just thought I'd give a little input so you know I watched :-)
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Yes he does have a bit more oomph there (but barely:p) As I said, I just wanted to sit and watch then form a plan, I think that he gets bored really quickly trotting even with changes of rein. I think cutting that out will help him a lot. He can be impulsive on the hack, but he can also be lazy too. He is such a chilled boy, hacked out yesterday and his companion horse threw and absolute hissy fit... bucking squealing the works (rare hi jinxs moment) ben just looked at him, disinterested and unammused :rolleyes: He really needs a rider on his case, as I said earlier, acting before the issue, so constantly keeping up the tempo and keeping him on the right track. We've agreed to make this a regular session, I will give her stuff to work on every session.
 
tallyhohoho! said:
Lol! You said it QB! Rocket... Lol!!

Good plan. Lots of hacking and I think the lunge work is a great idea. Then you can work on his impulsion and rhythm at this early stage without a rider impeding his balance as he builds up much needed muscle in his back and neck. You can get the transitions in much easier. I agree with using whip. That rope was making me nervous too! :eek:

The hacking out and work in hand as you suggested will work wonders at this stage I reckon. Good luck!! So looking forward to seeing him in spring, I don't think any of us will recognise him!
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Naww thanks, yes I cant wait to see him in the spring... he is a lazy sod but my god he is so willing at the same time, and we had some issues with him dragging his toes, so its great to see him not doing that and his bum actually muscling up, underneath the saddle and the neck... still needs work, so really want to work on stretching him out, long and low and working that back. Yes the rope is scary :eek: I have a really long lunge whip so if he doesnt listen I can tickle his bum with the end of it, but to be honest... he knows hes going to get it if he doesnt play ball with me:rolleyes::p

Another thing, I know hes in a 5 point breastplate and not exactly competing, but I cant abide the neckstrap moving around on his neck, so I thought I would get the real deal ahead of time:D Gets in the way of the schooling whip and the shoulder though:rolleyes::o


edited to say I wrote about building up his muscle in his back and neck then saw you had said exactly the same in your post! Doh! Im losing my marbles!
 
One last question... hes young and Ive used a pessoa on an older horse, but thats it, would a few minutes on a long and low set up a couple of times a week be beneficial and appropriate for him at his age?:confused::confused:
 
FfionWinnie said:
I can't add much to what's been said but I am amazed she can have her legs at the angle they are in the first schooling vid.
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the girl is a contortionist:p she is going to work at a racing stables in newmarket next year:) I remember the first time she rode and I went to ride afterwards... had to drop the stirrups at least six holes!:eek::eek:
 
I have also used a pessoa on an older horse. It's up to you really, but do you want to be putting him in a "position" yet? It most probably will give you the "shape" but you'll set that restriction in early in his training. I think it will be useful perhaps when you get him going more forward using his own impulsion. If he's moving his back, he will naturally want to 'round' for want of a better word.

I'm sure someone more experienced with it will have better advice.

Despite saying on here in the past I hate it, I do think it has a place, but now I think the horse has to have a certain level of fitness first or, he can develop ways of going you don't want because he is weak (e.g. going on the forehand to avoid pain in his poll or SI joint). In my humble opinion, perhaps carry on getting him moving and once he is established in a rhythm in walk, trot and canter... and he is able to carry himself better and more supple, start using it to build on the muscles.

Hope that made sense, goodness me do I waffle on! I am so jealous you have a sand school... are you allowed to loose school? If so, take full advantage. Nothing like loose schooling to engage the brain and the back!!
 
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She is a nice rider but she lacks the education in her riding to produce him at this crucial stage IMHO. She either needs some lessons on him ASAP to put them on the right path forwards or someone more experienced with producing babies to ride him for a couple of weeks.
He'll be very nice, he's not trying to be awkward at any time, he's just clueless!
 
I have picked on one issue, and that is his falling out through his shoulder. It is no wonder he does that when the rider is opening up the side door! She is using all inside rein to create the circle, so his neck is bent in and he falls out through his right shoulder. He would be doing it all the way around if it wasn't for the edge of the school as she is shoving the outside rein at him. Look how forward her outside hand is. To correct the shoulder falling out you need more OUTSIDE rein. Little half halts on the outside rein directed towards your belly button.

I agree also with all that Tallyho says regarding his lack of impulsion. Lovely boy you have there though!
 
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tallyhohoho! said:
I have also used a pessoa on an older horse. It's up to you really, but do you want to be putting him in a "position" yet? It most probably will give you the "shape" but you'll set that restriction in early in his training. I think it will be useful perhaps when you get him going more forward using his own impulsion. If he's moving his back, he will naturally want to 'round' for want of a better word.

I'm sure someone more experienced with it will have better advice.

Despite saying on here in the past I hate it, I do think it has a place, but now I think the horse has to have a certain level of fitness first or, he can develop ways of going you don't want because he is weak (e.g. going on the forehand to avoid pain in his poll or SI joint). In my humble opinion, perhaps carry on getting him moving and once he is established in a rhythm in walk, trot and canter... and he is able to carry himself better and more supple, start using it to build on the muscles.

Hope that made sense, goodness me do I waffle on! I am so jealous you have a sand school... are you allowed to loose school? If so, take full advantage. Nothing like loose schooling to engage the brain and the back!!
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To be honest I used to loose school ebs, but I haven't with Ben... So I don't know if its allowed at this yard, but I will find out. Re the Pessoa, I will leave it for a while.

ridefast said:
Use a chambon, much much better for horses physically
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I don't have one, but I will bear that in mind for a later date


TheMule said:
She is a nice rider but she lacks the education in her riding to produce him at this crucial stage IMHO. She either needs some lessons on him ASAP to put them on the right path forwards or someone more experienced with producing babies to ride him for a couple of weeks.
He'll be very nice, he's not trying to be awkward at any time, he's just clueless!
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She mainly hacks him out and it's normally with yo or ym who give pointers to her, and yo teaches her on her own horse. Hence now he is starting to go in the school, I just used yesterday as an assessment and as I said I'm going to be regularly having a session with her in the school, and ironing out the bits and bobs.

Wagtail said:
I have picked on one issue, and that is his falling out through his shoulder. It is no wonder he does that when the rider is opening up the side door! She is using all inside rein to create the circle, so his neck is bent in and he falls out through his right shoulder. He would be doing it all the way around if it wasn't for the edge of the school as she is shoving the outside rein at him. Look how forward her outside hand is. To correct the shoulder falling out you need more OUTSIDE rein. Little half halts on the outside rein directed towards your belly button.

I agree also with all that Tallyho says regarding his lack of impulsion. Lovely boy you have there though!
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Do you think:D::D ha ha it's like he's bent in the middle isn't it:eek::D. Yes, it's a must fix and on the top of my list! As I said I just watched yesterday she is hacking him out today and he has a day off tomorrow, then I will be schooling him on Friday, I'm going to pay real attention to what I do when I school him so I can translate this to her next week if that makes sense?

And yes, impulsion!! Anyone have a cattle rod?::o:D:p
 
Rather than a pessoa, what about using a lunging rope aka the "Kerrilli lunging method" aka "the draw reins method".

A quick search on here will give you the basics but Laura B uses it and markets a posh lunging aid and lots of the CR folks do the same with knotted draw reins. It will encourage long and low without putting too much pressure on. I've tried it with my 5 year old with decent results (would be better if I wasn't cobbling something homemade together with the aid of lots of bailing twine though......).
 
KristmasKat said:
Rather than a pessoa, what about using a lunging rope aka the "Kerrilli lunging method" aka "the draw reins method".

A quick search on here will give you the basics but Laura B uses it and markets a posh lunging aid and lots of the CR folks do the same with knotted draw reins. It will encourage long and low without putting too much pressure on. I've tried it with my 5 year old with decent results (would be better if I wasn't cobbling something homemade together with the aid of lots of bailing twine though......).
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Thank you, have heard about this method and often meant to read up on it but never have to date... Will take a peek, although will have to invest in some dr as my dads dog chewed them a couple of years ago:rolleyes::o. Although I have always liked the idea of using a couple of pairs of tights for something like that... I have loads and never wear them and I think the elasticity and give would be useful so I may have a read and try it with tights:o and see how it goes :)
 
oooh tights is a good idea...... I used a bungee but it wasn't really long enough so I had to use a loop of bailing twine too, but tights I can see working, would be lovely and soft too.......
 
KristmasKat said:
oooh tights is a good idea...... I used a bungee but it wasn't really long enough so I had to use a loop of bailing twine too, but tights I can see working, would be lovely and soft too.......
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:D. It's actually something I heard years ago when the bungee came out, some woman said she had been using the bungee method for years with tights :). I actually find the bungee too resistant and heavy but tights seem much more subtle and 'friendly' to me :)
 
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