Bespoke saddle not to spec

[Emlucy]

Hi, anyone can help me here, I have brought a bespoke saddle 17.5” saddle, with my horse’s bad behaviour lately I had an accident anyway fast forward I measured the saddle and it measured as a 18” although in spec I ask for 17.5” I have spoken to saddle fitter and she says that they are bespoke so vary in size as not mass made, ie. button may be slightly off, panels off, it measured almost half an inch out?

 

[AmyMay]

Have you had it independently reviewed?

 

[teddy_]

Are you absolutely 100% sure you're measuring the saddle correctly?

If so, it is irrelevant whether the saddle is made to measure or 'mass made'. I'd push back with this one OP .

 

[Goldenstar]

I would get an master saddler to measure it for you and write a report and then push back I would do everything in writing or text ( keep screen shots ) and if they don’t take it back take them to the small claims court .
It never ceases to amaze me how much difference that half an inch is .

 

[Baywonder]

My DH is a long standing bespoke saddle maker, and he has asked me to give you an explanation to your original question as follows:

I will answer your question based on a standard 17.5" tree with a 17.5" base rail, and a standard depth angled cantle. this will now measure 17.5" from head nail to the centre of the cantle.

If you reduce the depth of the cantle by 1" to give you a shallower seat, this will now measure approximately 17" from head nail to the centre of the cantle, but the base unit will remain the same.

If you increase the height of the cantle by 1" to give a deeper dressage seat this will now measure approximately 18" from the head nail to the centre of the cantle, but again the base unit will measure the same.

The next scenario is you order a tree from the tree manufacturer. You order a 17.5" shallow cantle tree. They have to lengthen the base unit by 1/2" to give you the 17.5" top measurement, therefore this will give you an 18" base unit.

If you order a 17.5" deep dressage cantle from a tree maker, they will shorten the base unit by 1/2" therefore giving you a 17" base unit.

My DH and a handful of other saddle companies now measure their saddles to the base unit only of the tree, which will give you a 17.5" seat which will not alter your seat area or the length of the saddle on the horses back. Therefore, any cantle, whether it is shallow, deep, angled up / backwards will be fixed on the base unit in the exact same place. However the top measurement can vary up to 1" either way, depending on the many different cantles that are put on trees these days, without impacting on the length of the panel, which is the most important thing to consider.

This is not a get out clause or an excuse, but this is a fact of how saddle trees are manufactured now. My DH stamps the size of his saddles according to the base unit of the tree, as top measurements are not always accurate. Also, his fitters and / or tack shops explain this to their customers when they order a new saddle from him.

I hope this clarifies things for you, but if you have any questions, please do just ask.

 

[GrassChop]

My DH is a long standing bespoke saddle maker, and he has asked me to give you an explanation to your original question as follows:

I will answer your question based on a standard 17.5" tree with a 17.5" base rail, and a standard depth angled cantle. this will now measure 17.5" from head nail to the centre of the cantle.

If you reduce the depth of the cantle by 1" to give you a shallower seat, this will now measure approximately 17" from head nail to the centre of the cantle, but the base unit will remain the same.

If you increase the height of the cantle by 1" to give a deeper dressage seat this will now measure approximately 18" from the head nail to the centre of the cantle, but again the base unit will measure the same.

The next scenario is you order a tree from the tree manufacturer. You order a 17.5" shallow cantle tree. They have to lengthen the base unit by 1/2" to give you the 17.5" top measurement, therefore this will give you an 18" base unit.

If you order a 17.5" deep dressage cantle from a tree maker, they will shorten the base unit by 1/2" therefore giving you a 17" base unit.

My DH and a handful of other saddle companies now measure their saddles to the base unit only of the tree, which will give you a 17.5" seat which will not alter your seat area or the length of the saddle on the horses back. Therefore, any cantle, whether it is shallow, deep, angled up / backwards will be fixed on the base unit in the exact same place. However the top measurement can vary up to 1" either way, depending on the many different cantles that are put on trees these days, without impacting on the length of the panel, which is the most important thing to consider.

This is not a get out clause or an excuse, but this is a fact of how saddle trees are manufactured now. My DH stamps the size of his saddles according to the base unit of the tree, as top measurements are not always accurate. Also, his fitters and / or tack shops explain this to their customers when they order a new saddle from him.

I hope this clarifies things for you, but if you have any questions, please do just ask.

This is really interesting to know!
According to The Saddle Bank, they believe the correct and accurate way to measure is from the centre of the cantle straight down to the end of the pommel and then add 1". I've never heard of that method before.

 

[Goldenstar]

I never done it any other way than Baywonder does .

 

[Baywonder]

According to The Saddle Bank, they believe the correct and accurate way to measure is from the centre of the cantle straight down to the end of the pommel and then add 1". I've never heard of that method before.

A bit more info for you from my DH

What the saddle bank have said is technically correct, based on a bog standard, no frills, straight forward saddle tree as based on the one in my explanation above. This has a 1.5" cut back head, therefore a 17.5" to head nail would measure 16" from cut-back to cantle, plus 1.5" would give you a 17.5" tree. The standard 1" addition would not work on every saddle as you can have slope heads, straight heads, 1" cut-back heads, 2.5" cut-back heads - plus all the different angled cantles - it is an old fashioned basic guideline for measurement.

It would definitely not apply to my DH's full range of saddles, as the customer would need to ask him how to measure each one, depending upon the tree used.

 

[TPO]

Once the saddle was made did the fitter come out to fit the saddle to the horse?

 

[Leandy]

But does it fit you and the horse as intended? Surely that is more important than an argument over half an inch in what is really a rather subjective measurement?

 

[sbloom]

This is really interesting to know!
According to The Saddle Bank, they believe the correct and accurate way to measure is from the centre of the cantle straight down to the end of the pommel and then add 1". I've never heard of that method before.

First I've heard. It IS more consistent than the nail head because the latter can be put on in slightly different locations, meaning the measurement varies, but why add an inch? It's not a way to calculate seat size, it's a "cutback to centre of the cantle" measurement which is a relevant way to measure the seat, it's just not "seat size" and adding an inch does not make it so. The saddles I fit have a quarter cut back and will measure much bigger than the equivalent Kieffer with its massive cut back.

Inside the saddle the tree will almost certainly be written on, and it should say 17.5. Unfortunately the saddle has to be taken apart to see this, so we mostly have to go on trust. Does it fit your horse is the main consideration, and can you sell it on as 17.5" further down the line as that will be easier to sell than an 18", and in part is about how long is the footprint, and does it ride like a 17.5 or 18". Hand crafted IS part of the reason (placement of the nail head) but so is being customised, if it's not an off the peg model then the fitter may have decided you need a tweak to cantle shape/bellies as has been discussed above.

 

[Emlucy]

 

[Emlucy]

Hi thank you everyone I am over whelm with the information and help I think I am going to have to read it a few times.
above is a picture of saddle above, what do you think?
She did check it again although with the saddle pad?, I have booked a physio to check it too I’m also thinking perhaps a equine vet might help as well as they should know the skeleton of the horse I presume? I’m not happy at all if the saddle is going beyond the last rib as this is so unsafe especially with a stroppy/ xx racer, I need to be 100% sure. Thank you?

 

[Emlucy]

My DH is a long standing bespoke saddle maker, and he has asked me to give you an explanation to your original question as follows:

I will answer your question based on a standard 17.5" tree with a 17.5" base rail, and a standard depth angled cantle. this will now measure 17.5" from head nail to the centre of the cantle.

If you reduce the depth of the cantle by 1" to give you a shallower seat, this will now measure approximately 17" from head nail to the centre of the cantle, but the base unit will remain the same.

If you increase the height of the cantle by 1" to give a deeper dressage seat this will now measure approximately 18" from the head nail to the centre of the cantle, but again the base unit will measure the same.

The next scenario is you order a tree from the tree manufacturer. You order a 17.5" shallow cantle tree. They have to lengthen the base unit by 1/2" to give you the 17.5" top measurement, therefore this will give you an 18" base unit.

If you order a 17.5" deep dressage cantle from a tree maker, they will shorten the base unit by 1/2" therefore giving you a 17" base unit.

My DH and a handful of other saddle companies now measure their saddles to the base unit only of the tree, which will give you a 17.5" seat which will not alter your seat area or the length of the saddle on the horses back. Therefore, any cantle, whether it is shallow, deep, angled up / backwards will be fixed on the base unit in the exact same place. However the top measurement can vary up to 1" either way, depending on the many different cantles that are put on trees these days, without impacting on the length of the panel, which is the most important thing to consider.

This is not a get out clause or an excuse, but this is a fact of how saddle trees are manufactured now. My DH stamps the size of his saddles according to the base unit of the tree, as top measurements are not always accurate. Also, his fitters and / or tack shops explain this to their customers when they order a new saddle from him.

I hope this clarifies things for you, but if you have any questions, please do just ask.

Hi thank you everyone I am over whelm with the information and help I think I am going to have to read it a few times.
above is a picture of saddle above, what do you think?
She did check it again although with the saddle pad?, I have booked a physio to check it too I’m also thinking perhaps a equine vet might help as well as they should know the skeleton of the horse I presume? I’m not happy at all if the saddle is going beyond the last rib as this is so unsafe especially with a stroppy/ xx racer, I need to be 100% sure. Thank you?

Also is there a measurement I can take in relation to the underneath saddle pads, this must be more important than the top as it’s the closest to the horses back?

 

[TPO]

If you could take photos from.the shoulder towards the tail and from the top of the tail towards either that would give a better idea of fit. Although of course no one can advise fully from a stationary photo

Have you been riding in the saddle?

A physio is a good shout if you dont believe the fitter (I read it as if they had been out and fitted this saddle to the horse). An equine vet to fit a saddle is a waste of time and money IMO. Might be worth getting another fitter out.

Watch Poppy Webber videos on youtube. They might help you with how to check it yourself

 

[Baywonder]

As well as the ones @TPO has suggested, are you able to post a side on photo, with your horse completely in the picture? Also, can you take a pic looking down on the seat of the saddle? Place a tape measure overhanging the pommel to the centre of the cantle. It appears to have a 2.5" cut back head - if so, this would impact on your seat position. ?

 

[sbloom]

There's a good chance it's either on the shoulder, or beyond the last rib, or both, but if a saddle is well fitted with the rider's weight forwards (not always easy to achieve with traditional English saddles, as opposed to forward seat continental styles) then you can fit beyond the back rib, the consensus is that the tree leaves the horse's back by the last rib, but that's tricky to determine without doing a bare tree fitting.

I'd want different photos https://www.ahsaddles.com/photos-for-a-saddle-adjustment plus one from behind, but I can only point out what may be wrong, no-one can advise if a saddle actually fits well from photos if they've not already fitted it hands on (the link is really for my own customers, to have a quick visual on the saddle I already fitted for them).

 

[Emlucy]

Also is there a measurement I can take in relation to the underneath saddle pads, this must be more important than the top as it’s the closest to the horses back?

There's a good chance it's either on the shoulder, or beyond the last rib, or both, but if a saddle is well fitted with the rider's weight forwards (not always easy to achieve with traditional English saddles, as opposed to forward seat continental styles) then you can fit beyond the back rib, the consensus is that the tree leaves the horse's back by the last rib, but that's tricky to determine without doing a bare tree fitting.

I'd want different photos https://www.ahsaddles.com/photos-for-a-saddle-adjustment plus one from behind, but I can only point out what may be wrong, no-one can advise if a saddle actually fits well from photos if they've not already fitted it hands on (the link is really for my own customers, to have a quick visual on the saddle I already fitted for them).

 

[Emlucy]

Sorry if I’m being petty but here is a text the saddle fitter sent to me and maybe I’m being paranoid but is she admitting that the saddle will go beyond the last rib if I’m doing cross country or going up hill as well I suppose, the seat is bigger than my last saddle, which measured a 17.5” and looked smaller on him

 

[sbloom]

Honestly this is such a difficult topic that no-one can agree on. The longest you can fit is that the tree leaves the back at the last rib, the conservative way to fit, usually but not wholly the way I fit, is for the weight bearing area to completely end at the back rib, and there are variations in between. Is there a size stamp on the flap? if she is adamant it will be fine then you may have to get a second opinion, but there is an official route to go if she's SMS, so contact the society. To be honest when a horse is working its back is longer than when it's static so you get a bit more space there, but saddles don't move that much, and if they do it's very brief and it should return to where it was, it wouldn't be a worry to me I don't think, not something I've ever given much thought to as it's so fleeting.

Your photo is just too close in, giving an angle to the front of the flap, unable to see where the front of the saddle lines up, girth it firmly as per my link, and post some more pics, but ultimately it's a debatable topic. If you have paperwork saying you were ordering a 17.5 and this is stamped 18" then you can reject it and would need to contact Trading Standards if the fitter won't take it back, if it's not stamped 18" then it's a grey area. Keep all documentation, and hopefully you contacted her very soon after fitting to say you were unhappy, the sooner the better with all these things.

 

[Emlucy]

Thank you

 

[Emlucy]

Hi, I’m thinking it’s ok in the back, but on the whole what do you think please

Thank you

 

[scats]

I am absolutely up the wall with my new made to measure saddle, which I have paid full price for and have in my possession, but is too narrow. Waiting on fitter to come out to have a look at it and I’ve tried desperately to be patient over the whole thing but I’m getting fed up now

 

[Emlucy]

Hi, I get confused with saddles myself but your rights are that the saddle should be fit fit purpose, so you have to prove this, then they need to fix it, if they don’t then you can claim your money back in total you have a year from the date of purchase, I have this information from citizens advice bureau I hope this helps