Bess, our border collie, now four months old

[Patches]

Not been on HHO for months, but thought I'd share some pictures of our Border Collie to show you how she's coming along.

Just after we got her.

Beginning of October, three months old, starting her education as a herder.

Finally, taken on the 3rd November, at 4 months old. She's settled in so well and is such a joy to have around. Recall is fabulous, sit and lie down are cemented in her mind and she is starting to understand "away" commands to go and round up stray cows.

 

[SilverSkye]

She is gorgeous i love the way her ears stand up!! How is your daughter getting on with her pony hope they are still going well.

 

[katie_southwest]

Wow how much has she grown!!! Shes gorgeous, and looks like shes loving her new job

 

[Patches]

She has grown loads, hasn't she? Surprises us how big she is as we thought she was incredibly weedy only 6 weeks or so ago.

She's a fabulous dog. We rarely have her on a lead as there is no need. She will walk to heel and her recall if she moves ahead or lags behind is instant.

It's great taking her up the fields. She spends about 3 1/2 hours a day up the fields (that means I do too!)

The milkers are in now for winter but the heifers are still out, so she's getting to see them and move them into different fields daily. If we're not "working" cows, we're playing with a ball or scurrying about in the woods - something she absolutely loves to do! She has a blast in the undergrowth.

Watching her focus and body language shift from "play" to "working" is fascinating. If we're out with her and just walking or playing with the ball her focus is firmly fixed on us. If she runs ahead and lies to wait, she does so facing us and watching us.

As soon as she sees the cows, she adopts the Border Collie crouching pace. If she runs slightly ahead she will no long lie down and look at us, she lies down to face the cows, naturally they are what her eye longs to watch. Her expression changes and she instantly appears more "keen".

She's amazing. I've never owned a border collie before, but I'm sold on her. Endless energy, keen, disciplined and trainable. She completely enjoys life, whether she's working or playing.....although working is her ultimate idea of playing I'm sure!

She's amazing. Love her to death. I hope she's as happy with us and the life we're offering her as we are with her.

We're starting puppy classes soon, with the intention of graduating from puppy class to a more advanced obedience class before moving on to basic fun agility classes when she's old enough.

We may even look into getting some guidance from a sheepdog trainer for more advanced working "tricks of the trade".

 

[Patches]

Thanks, we think she's adorable too, although I'm hoping the ears fall into place in time!

Hannah and Oliver are doing very well, thank you for asking. Back at PC now and enjoying her rallies immensely.

 

[fmay]

She's probably already far too advanced for puppy classes

Glad you are enjoying her so much

 

[Patches]

[ QUOTE ]
She's probably already far too advanced for puppy classes

Glad you are enjoying her so much

[/ QUOTE ]

Nooo.......I am sure her basic commands will all go out of the window when in the company of other dogs, especially in a confined space. She's not used to "normal" life, only farm life.

Actually, the one funny (naughty I guess) habit she has is to roll over on her back and tuck her chin to her chest when you try to put the lead back on. That said, at least she's stopped the biting part of the ensemble now after some stern tellings off! I've taken over her walking now (as she's really the in-laws dog) to instil come consistency and discipline/basic training into her. The mother in law wasn't really asking anything of her, never even had her off a lead.

Depending on the time of the day, I always put a lead on her to bring her back to the farm yard in case our liveries etc are about. I'm sure they'd not appreciate a muddy, mucky border collie jumping up them when she spots them.

That said, she doesn't jump up us very often now. If she hurtles towards us a stern "sit" and the index finger pointed out as she approaches gets her sitting instead of jumping 9 times out of 10. Can't really expect visitors to the farm to have to request her to sit etc as she bounds up to them....they're more likely to just brace themselves for the impact.

Bless her. She is so eager to please!

The differences between owning a herding dog and a gun dog are quite immense. I realise this is obvious to most, but as I've only ever owned a scent loving cocker spaniel before, I am really interested in their differing body language when out on walks.

 

[Ravenwood]

She looks fab - there is nothing better than to see a dog doing what it was bred to do. She is very lucky to have landed up with you!

 

[Patches]

Awww thanks Ravenwood.

I must admit, I see a girl at the school with a border collie that is two weeks older than Bess. She lives in a terraced, numerous children all very young and a back yard for outside space. The dog's exercise is to walk to the school twice a day (about 3/4 round trip at most) whilst woman is pushing a buggy.

Not that I have anything against where she lives etc, but I often think how much fun her pup would have if it could be let loose over fields and see our cows. Must be boring for it as she says she's not let her off a lead yet. Do some border collies really adapt to that type of lifestyle? We're worried that Bess will get bored over the winter when the heifers and milkers are in, and she's still spending at least three hours a day in the fields, split over three walks...which include alot of running/ball playing and being free over lots of land. She gets lots of other walks too but the dark morning walk and mid-late evening walks in the dark are done on a retractable lead and not for as long a duration or over as much land.

Can't imagine Bess as a pet in the true sense of the word.

 

[MurphysMinder]

She is gorgeous, I love her ears. Couldn't agree more about a dog doing the job it is bred for. The fact that she is thriving on so much time running loose in the fields just shows how unfair (to the point of cruelty sometimes imo)it is to keep active dogs like collies in restricted environments. Nice to see you back on HHO, someone was asking your whereabouts on soapbox recently.

 

[Ravenwood]

[ QUOTE ]
We're worried that Bess will get bored over the winter when the heifers and milkers are in, and she's still spending at least three hours a day in the fields, split over three walks...which include alot of running/ball playing and being free over lots of land. She gets lots of other walks too but the dark morning walk and mid-late evening walks in the dark are done on a retractable lead and not for as long a duration or over as much land.

Can't imagine Bess as a pet in the true sense of the word.

[/ QUOTE ]

But, my dogs are both working gun dogs and therefore only work from Sept to end of Jan and I don't think they get bored the rest of the year - they come riding with me everyday anyway but when I come downstairs with my breeks on they think all their Christmas's have come at once!

She is so young, I suspect it will do her good to have a break from working anyway (not that I know the first thing about borders!)

 

[Patches]

I think we probably are worrying un-necessarily. She enjoys her trips over the fields, especially scurrying around the woods like a rocket, and does manage to let off plenty of steam without seeing livestock.

I don't think she'd have been shown the cows quite so young had it not been for time of year we got her. They "line up" in October for winter housing and don't tend to graze outside again until late April/early May (dependent on the weather). We wanted her to have met them before she was that old, hence why we incorporated fetching the cows into her daily walks. She wasn't working in the full sense of the word as she was rather nervous of them to begin with and initially started off on a lead of course.

It's only this last few weeks, since the milkers have come in, that she's really begun to develop her confidence around the maiden heifers and bull and listen/respond to commands better. They just happen to be grazing closer to home at the moment so we go out and check on them with her and she is helping us to drive them into different fields when we open them up. There aren't many of them and they tend to group more, so she's not required to cover long distances or even to send them home. It's working out really well. She seems content and happier now she's able to run off the lead and burn up a bit of energy. She's less destructive when she's had plenty of walks too.

Her walks mainly consist of playing in the field and we don't have her out for longer than an hour at a time just yet. Like you say, she is only a baby and we don't want to strain her joints.

She is amazing though. Her whole persona changes when she sees them. She just HAS to go and round them up. Bless her heart.

 

[HeatherAda]

You're going to love agility. I have a collie X and we've been doing it for about 6 weeks now. It's so much fun! My girl LOVES it. So much enthusiasm (perhaps a little too much!) and now she's starting to know what she's doing it's brilliant.

 

[creusa]

Hi Patches,
Congratulations on becoming the proud and enthusiastic owner of a Border Collie! I have kept, bred and worked Borders over about 12 years and am now just starting out again on horses...so I have been lurking a lot as I learned so much about Borders by doing that on a dedicated list many years ago. If you want to ask questions and read up about their training from VERY experienced people in GB, email me for the URL of the list and some suggested reading.
Now...your handling of her as you described is great...you show lots of confidence around her and I am sure she gets a lot of reassurance from that. I was a bit worried when you said that you were using commands at this age...I have found it far beter to allow the pup to use its instincts so that it gets a sense of balance and power without being told what to do. Work should be FUN and a kind of play so that she will always be keen to go to the animals. Commands and controls come later, at about 9 or 10 months at the earliest.
I would advise that you don't do obedience with her...it is too "exact" and restrictive. She needs to listen to her own instincts and your job is to watch her and let her work, correcting only those things you feel are not right. You have to watch and know her working style really well so that you know how and when to corrrect her later. Her primary motivation is movement and controlling that. I would also concentrate on working with her in a herding capacity first and doing agility only when she has mastered her first job. Don't confuse her as to the different pressures needed to do both. She is only a baby in her head...let her play!
Do try to speak with experienced people...they are so kind and helpful and can help avoid the many pitfalls that can turn a wonderful pup into a less wonderful adult...it is possible to "break" a dog so that it will not work again. Too much pressure too soon can do this.
I know that you will find your life changed by this wonderful gift we have inherited from centuries of shepherds and farmers. I adore my two (now retired) and have years of wonderful memories of breeding, training and working together to enjoy.

 

[Patches]

Welcome to the forum! What a wonderful first post. How marvellous that my post has brought you out of lurking!

I would like to thank you for taking the time to reply. I honestly hadn't thought about agility confusing her with her "work". That's a very, very good point and one to certainly consider. I was only thinking about agility as I figured she might need more to occupy her mind, but perhaps she'll be occupied enough with all the running about in the fields?

Obedience classes...... I naturally assumed we should do the whole obedience class thing as I did it with my other dog, just thought it was the done thing. I guess there is no real need for her be so "exact" in her training as we're never with her in a confined space or by a roadside, so she is free to wander a bit away from us if she wants to do so. She is certainly a farm dog more than a domestic pet. Not sure she has it in her to be a pet in the same way my cocker spaniel is. She hates being inside. She just wants to be out all the time.

We were in the "rough" today, which is a valley between two fields full of trees and a brook. She ran out of sight a few times but I don't panic. I just whistle and she will always come bounding back to me, sitting at my heels so I can make much of her for being a good girl. She doesn't stray too far generally speaking as she looks out for us.

The commands she's learning are only a few. Nothing "serious" as we're not experienced with sheep dogs or sheep for that matter. We only have dairy cows and their followers, definitely not a contender for One Man and His Dog!

When I say "away" commands, it's more us just throwing an arm in the direction we want her to go in and running a few steps with her. She's cottoned on to what we want her to do.....go right...or left....whichever way we tend to point. As we point, I must admit I do just say "send 'em". No idea why I say that, but it just sort of came out. I don't need her to go "away" in a shepherd type situation as I don't want her to run ahead of the cows. We just need her to sweep the entire width of the cows. We started getting her to do this by me and Duncan being opposite sides of the cows across the field and calling her between us. She would then sweep the cows forwards as she ran to either one of us, behind them, without actually trying to do so. Does that make sense?

We only started this because she used to run ahead of the cows which would turn them back initially, but quickly learned to stay behind them with us and work them forwards. Again, nothing we've "taught" her as such....apart from by calling her back to us when she gets ahead or by the shouting between us, as I mentioned above.

She doesn't know many "commands" really. She just wants to come back to us, always has. We've rarely had her on a lead from day one as there's never been any need so her recall is natural really. Just got her used to a lead for those vet visits or when we see a dog walker over the footpaths through the land and need to restrain her. "Sit" is the only formal command we have intentionally instilled in her from very young as she likes to jump up from a full gallop across the fields. She knocked the children over a few times and has knocked into my mother in law almost flattening her too. In asking her to sit as she approaches us, we've all but eliminated that problem (as in she obeys the "command" 9 times out of 10)

The rest of her "training" is pretty on the fly to be honest. We don't require anything overly specific from her and never really will. We just need her to come back when asked and to run around behind the cows so they come up for milking, which is something she naturally wants to do through years of breeding.

I probably make it all sound over complicated, but I'm pretty sure most people would see it as very laid back if they saw her having fun in the fields. I know I view it all as playing with her. She's fab!

 

[creusa]

HI Patches,
That all sounds pretty good to me. The reason Bess went around the heads of the cows is because that is what she is genetically hard-wired to do...to gather. Think carefully if that may not be useful sometimes if you want her to gather the cows in say, when it is raining or it is cold and you want to stand inside the barn! If you encourage her to zigzag back and forth behind the cows all the time (that is called driving and wearing) she may well find it difficult to regain the comfort of going to their heads. And if you train her to move from you to your partner and back, she will never find that most important place we call balance...the basis of every move the BC makes in relation to the stock. She (and the stock) instinctlvely know where that place is (and how it keeps moving)...it is based on "the weight" of the stock...how many one side of the group as to the other, and how strong those animals are in the group. You want more balance towards where the dominant animal is, which is often at the back to guard the herd, than the weaker, which will follow.) The BC is bred to work this out for themselves and really should be encouraged to feel for it without commands. So I suggest that you keep doing what you are doing BUT IN VERY SHORT BURSTS OF TIME but give her no commands. Let her feel where she feels she has equal weight on both sides of her line. She will begin to look for her inner sense of balance and a kind of "right relief" in her head.

All my BC's learned "obedience" through herding commands..."lie down" ( I teach this at or before three months and make a game out of it...I didn't sit them since it is easier to get up from a lie down than a sit
position...they are already balanced and ready to grip with their front feet ) , "stop", "wait",or "stay" "come" and some handlers use "get back " or "get out!" to give the stock some room if the dog works too closely. All these must be done at distance. With just these commands I can get my dogs to go pretty much where I like and do what I need...they are retired now but are models of behaviour in the park. Jumping up is a relic of pups' behaviour to get food from Mum in the wild...it was always rewarded with something to eat!
I do recommend a book called "A Way of Life" by H.Glyn Jones who spent almost all his 80 or so years living with BC's, using them, training them, breeding them and trialling them. He is personally a lovely twinkly-eyed man who lives in North Wales..., knows everyone there is to know and his book is easy to read and well organised. It was my first book (of many) on training a young dog...and always The Bible.

 

[Patches]

Ooooo more good points.

The cows that hang back for us are generally the doddery or lame ones. (Before others are horrified, they are cows under treatment for foul of the foot etc etc or ones that are slightly arthritic). However, we do get the odd ones that drop back or bang heads and "fight" when we're sending them up, so I guess it's fair to say we have a mix of dominant/followers at any one time.

We do only call her to us if we spot one side of the herd is hanging back, it's not a continual thing, but again I see where we could be upsetting her natural instinct.

It's hard because we often talk about her natural instinct to herd and others think we're talking nonsense and suggest every little ounce of herding needs to be trained in to her.

The book sounds fabulous. Thank you. I will just go and pop one in my Amazon basket.

Love your comments.....very informative. If only you lived close by!

 

[creusa]

Where do you live?

 

[Patches]

Staffordshire, right on it's border with Cheshire. (Close to Crewe)