Best food for a Czech Wolf.....

Cyrus said:
So basically a CWD is a cross breed?
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Aren't all breeds? All breeds originated from cross breeding. You say it Cyrus as if it were something to be despised!! Personally, I will never ever ever have another pedigree dog, unless I rescue one. I have never had a healthy pedigree, and I have never had an unhealthy cross ... there will be hundreds, nay thousands, of people who can tell me exactly the opposite, but my 40 years experience of owning dogs is as I state above.

Give me a good mongrel like my boys any day!!
 
PucciNPoni said:
I know this is going a bit off topic but I thought that breeding a wolf and a dog resulted in a non viable offspring (ie sterile) and a vet I work with said she'd recently read an article that someone trying to find a crossing to a dog with a wolf found that the closest thing they could find was......wait for it......











..... a POODLE!



Imagine the new designer mutts - will they be WOODLE? or POLF?



:eek:
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WHAT!!! You are kidding me!! I am sorry, but there is no qualified vet that would ever make such a ridiculous statement!!

Dogs ARE wolves - they are the direct descendent of the wolf, traceable via the mitochondrial DNA, back to 3 wolf bitches. All dogs we know today are descended from 3 wolf bitches. That is irrefutable. However, over the tens of thousands of years of "wolf" being "dog", they have evolved into the thousands of breeds we know today, most of whom are far removed from those 3 wolf bitches in terms of dietary tolerance, behaviour and doggie language.

I am sorry, I don't wish to be rude about this vet, but clearly they are totally, totally ignorant of genetics and the origins of dogs!!
 
Nikki J said:
WHAT!!! You are kidding me!! I am sorry, but there is no qualified vet that would ever make such a ridiculous statement!!

Dogs ARE wolves - they are the direct descendent of the wolf, traceable via the mitochondrial DNA, back to 3 wolf bitches. All dogs we know today are descended from 3 wolf bitches. That is irrefutable. However, over the tens of thousands of years of "wolf" being "dog", they have evolved into the thousands of breeds we know today, most of whom are far removed from those 3 wolf bitches in terms of dietary tolerance, behaviour and doggie language.

I am sorry, I don't wish to be rude about this vet, but clearly they are totally, totally ignorant of genetics and the origins of dogs!!
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I didn't say the VET said this - I said the vet said she'd read an ARTICLE someone else wrote.

It was certainly my layman's belief (and don't forget that vets don't necessarilly specialise in genetics so it MIGHT have been her understanding as well, but since I'm not her I couldn't really say what her belief was - this was a passing comment...) that wolves and dogs ARE DIFFERENT SPECIES. Where did donkeys come from - did they evolve from horses? Or were they completely different species from the start?

How on earth did my comment, which was more or less passed for humor get your knickers in such a knot?!
 
Cyrus said:
Not despised at all Nikki J plenty of cross breeds in my family just interested in finding out where the breed comes from as it just seems over the last few years all these wolf dogs have come on the scene
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O good! It was not meant as a criticism, Cyrus, just interested to find out your feelings re crossbreeds ... now I know!

Where do all these wolfdogs come from? Well, many of them probably have no recent wolf in them at all, and are just mixes of malamutes and huskies passed off as "wolf crosses". It was a bandwagon that many unscrupulous breeders jumped onto after Dances with Wolves and Snow Dogs - people saw these films and thought "I want one of those". It has been very detrimental to the Alaskan Malamute and the Siberian Husky, both of whom are not your average pet dog, but need loads of exercise, and very understanding owners if they are planning on having them as pets, not working them in harness.

That said, both the Utonagan and the Northern Inuit (the same lines, from the same original source, but there was a split a few years back - long story, which I won't bore you with!) were created from a mix of wolf, mal and husky in the main, with a smattering of GSD from the first dogs. A lady called Edwina (Eddie) Harrison in the late 80's started to breed wolf crosses, reportedly she had in her barn a brother and sister pair of wolves called Romulus and Remus. I say reportedly, as I never saw these wolves, they were kept hidden in a barn, but a friend of mine whose husband's work is in wildlife conservation, says she saw these wolves in the barn one day when the door blew open - apparently Eddie quickly shut the door, but not before my friend had seen what were very definitely wolves. There was a court case in the 90's when a so-called friend of Eddie's insisted on advertising her pups as wolf crosses in the local press, there was a hoo haa, a court case, and the result of this was that it became illegal to own a dog in the UK with a higher wolf content in it than 1%!! This of course is laughable, because all dogs, as direct descendants of the wolf, have more wolf content than that, but setting that aside Eddie's business plummeted, she ended up financially destitute, she became over-dogged, the RSPCA were involved, etc. etc. We ended up buying a pup off her - a male - in 1993, who was an F4 and a magnificent boy. He sired 2 litters, and we have a boy from his second litter living with us now, whom we rescued 2 years ago.

That is the story of Edwina Harrison very, very briefly - there is far far more to it than that, but I don't want to bore everyone!

Now, with the ban lifted on owning wolfdogs unless they are F2 or F1's, it is possible to buy a magnificent Czech wolfdog or Saarloos wolfdog legally. To my knowledge, there are 2 breeders of CWDs, one in Kent, one in Devon. I don't know personally the lady in Devon, but the Kent CWDs are magnificent dogs. Sadly, there are an awful lot of crosses out there - with Saarloos being crossed with NI's and Utonagans, and doubtless CWD's as well - which although I have no problem with crossbreeds and actively seek them out and prefer them, I am not convinced that you are bringing any further to the party by mixing what are already beautiful wolf crosses. That's just my opinion, others may think differently.

Hope this helps :)
 
PucciNPoni said:
I didn't say the VET said this - I said the vet said she'd read an ARTICLE someone else wrote.

It was certainly my layman's belief (and don't forget that vets don't necessarilly specialise in genetics so it MIGHT have been her understanding as well, but since I'm not her I couldn't really say what her belief was - this was a passing comment...) that wolves and dogs ARE DIFFERENT SPECIES. Where did donkeys come from - did they evolve from horses? Or were they completely different species from the start?

How on earth did my comment, which was more or less passed for humor get your knickers in such a knot?!
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It DID get my knickers in a knot, didn't it!! It is one of my pet hates - peeps who think that dogs did not evolve from wolves. It is like saying that we, English people, are a different species from the Kalahari Bushmen, or the Aborigines, or the Maori.

Sorry I misunderstood re the vet - my mistake :) My point is though that if a vet did believe this claptrap, then she is not a vet I would trust with my beloved boys, or even a hamster!

Regarding the donkey and the horse, they are separate species, but they are closely enough related to be able to breed, but the offspring will be infertile - F1's. These of course are mules, mules are a cross between a horse and a donkey and are infertile.

The dog and the wolf are not separate species, the young they produce are fertile, they can reproduce, and therefore it is really inaccurate to describe wolfdogs as F1's, F2's etc., or hybrids. The correct terminology for them is wolfdog, or wolf cross.

Sorry about the knotty knickers!! :)
 
Jools1234 said:
my understanding is that they are NOT wolves but ARE decendents of/from wolves
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I meant in genetic terms - dogs share 99.2% DNA with wolves. The tiny fraction of a percentage difference is behavioural.

Having lived with an F1 wolf, I can confirm they are indeed very different from your average labrador in many different ways - but it still very evident to see in your average labrador his wolf ancestry, in any dog, even toys like chihuahuas!
 
Is there a reason why you bought a cross breed and not a pure Czech Wolfdog. The breeder should of discused your feeding plan with you before you bought the dog in more detail.

If its not a pure Czechoslovakian Wolfdog you should not be calling it one.
Its cheaper for the breeder to cross breed and make money from those who do not do their research before buying a dog.

Did you get the dog from a breeder in Devon?
 
baggyb said:
God, I can't believe the vitriol (sp) on this thread - poor girl only asked for advice. As for all the talk about breeders dictating what people feed their dogs on......I would have thought that when they sold the puppies they lost all control (fair enough if people go back to them for advice) but they have no right to impose anything if they are selling a dog
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Well, this thread just confirms to me that good breeders indeed do have the right to ask the puppy is reared correctly for the breed.People such as you get "the order of the door",thankyou very much.Good breeders put years of work and knowledge into their breeding,and because of their acquired superior knowledge do expect the new owners to think enough of their puppy to listen ..and do.
Those who disagree please visit PreLoved for your next puppy,your sort of breeder resides therein.:)
 
Nikki J said:
It DID get my knickers in a knot, didn't it!! It is one of my pet hates - peeps who think that dogs did not evolve from wolves. It is like saying that we, English people, are a different species from the Kalahari Bushmen, or the Aborigines, or the Maori.

Sorry I misunderstood re the vet - my mistake :) My point is though that if a vet did believe this claptrap, then she is not a vet I would trust with my beloved boys, or even a hamster!

Regarding the donkey and the horse, they are separate species, but they are closely enough related to be able to breed, but the offspring will be infertile - F1's. These of course are mules, mules are a cross between a horse and a donkey and are infertile.

The dog and the wolf are not separate species, the young they produce are fertile, they can reproduce, and therefore it is really inaccurate to describe wolfdogs as F1's, F2's etc., or hybrids. The correct terminology for them is wolfdog, or wolf cross.

Sorry about the knotty knickers!! :)
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Dogs and wolves are part of the same subspecies. That is to say they are less different than two animals from different species and more similar than two animals of different breeds. Dingos are too. So they aren't wolves and they are.

Dogs are different from wolves in more than behaviour though. Size, brain size etc are different as well as behaviour and social behaviour.

I don't have black skin and some humans do. You can be the same species and have obvious physical differences and you can certainly be part of the same sub species and be really quite different.

Does anyone have a dingo cross? Are they allowed? No idea!
 
EAST KENT said:
Well, this thread just confirms to me that good breeders indeed do have the right to ask the puppy is reared correctly for the breed.People such as you get "the order of the door",thankyou very much.Good breeders put years of work and knowledge into their breeding,and because of their acquired superior knowledge do expect the new owners to think enough of their puppy to listen ..and do.
Those who disagree please visit PreLoved for your next puppy,your sort of breeder resides therein.:)
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Good post.:)
 
Czech Wolfdog breeders in Europe are reluctant to sell dogs to people in the U.K because of the breeders here cross breeding them for easy money.

Each prospective new puppy owner should be quized as to why they would make a good owner.

Each breeder needs to know that the pup has the right owner to raise the animal and not just sell to whoever pays the money first.

Glad to hear you are giving Raw another try.

Were you given much information about the breed from the breeder?

I only feed my dogs Raw but do know of a good food for those not wanting to feed Raw.......Millies Wolfheart is available online.
 
Nikki J said:
O good! It was not meant as a criticism, Cyrus, just interested to find out your feelings re crossbreeds ... now I know!

Where do all these wolfdogs come from? Well, many of them probably have no recent wolf in them at all, and are just mixes of malamutes and huskies passed off as "wolf crosses". It was a bandwagon that many unscrupulous breeders jumped onto after Dances with Wolves and Snow Dogs - people saw these films and thought "I want one of those". It has been very detrimental to the Alaskan Malamute and the Siberian Husky, both of whom are not your average pet dog, but need loads of exercise, and very understanding owners if they are planning on having them as pets, not working them in harness.

That said, both the Utonagan and the Northern Inuit (the same lines, from the same original source, but there was a split a few years back - long story, which I won't bore you with!) were created from a mix of wolf, mal and husky in the main, with a smattering of GSD from the first dogs. A lady called Edwina (Eddie) Harrison in the late 80's started to breed wolf crosses, reportedly she had in her barn a brother and sister pair of wolves called Romulus and Remus. I say reportedly, as I never saw these wolves, they were kept hidden in a barn, but a friend of mine whose husband's work is in wildlife conservation, says she saw these wolves in the barn one day when the door blew open - apparently Eddie quickly shut the door, but not before my friend had seen what were very definitely wolves. There was a court case in the 90's when a so-called friend of Eddie's insisted on advertising her pups as wolf crosses in the local press, there was a hoo haa, a court case, and the result of this was that it became illegal to own a dog in the UK with a higher wolf content in it than 1%!! This of course is laughable, because all dogs, as direct descendants of the wolf, have more wolf content than that, but setting that aside Eddie's business plummeted, she ended up financially destitute, she became over-dogged, the RSPCA were involved, etc. etc. We ended up buying a pup off her - a male - in 1993, who was an F4 and a magnificent boy. He sired 2 litters, and we have a boy from his second litter living with us now, whom we rescued 2 years ago.

That is the story of Edwina Harrison very, very briefly - there is far far more to it than that, but I don't want to bore everyone!

Now, with the ban lifted on owning wolfdogs unless they are F2 or F1's, it is possible to buy a magnificent Czech wolfdog or Saarloos wolfdog legally. To my knowledge, there are 2 breeders of CWDs, one in Kent, one in Devon. I don't know personally the lady in Devon, but the Kent CWDs are magnificent dogs. Sadly, there are an awful lot of crosses out there - with Saarloos being crossed with NI's and Utonagans, and doubtless CWD's as well - which although I have no problem with crossbreeds and actively seek them out and prefer them, I am not convinced that you are bringing any further to the party by mixing what are already beautiful wolf crosses. That's just my opinion, others may think differently.

Hope this helps :)
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Good post
 
CaveCanem said:
No need :) it still isn't a 'wolf' as the title of this thread suggests.
I have issue with x-breeding wolves and huskies with GSDs, they're completely different types of animal, the 'best of both' is a bit of a fallacy IMO. Different drives, different motivation, different purposes.
I realise the Czech wolfdog was bred initially experimentally as a patrol dog but with the other 'breeds' - I would love to see more of them working.
GSDs have suffered because of breeding for 'looks' rather than health and working ability and I hate to see them being used to breed more dogs, being bred for their 'looks'.

Breed GSDs with Belgians, Dutchies etc for a good working dog, with which they share similar characteristics, but breeding them to a completely different type of dog, I don't agree with, sorry. JMO though.
I trust all these breeders are carrying out hip and elbow x-rays on their breeding stock :)
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Tyson agrees with all of the above. He has such trouble with his hips and his tummy, and he's only 3 :(
 
Wolf said:
Is there a reason why you bought a cross breed and not a pure Czech Wolfdog. The breeder should of discused your feeding plan with you before you bought the dog in more detail.

If its not a pure Czechoslovakian Wolfdog you should not be calling it one.
Its cheaper for the breeder to cross breed and make money from those who do not do their research before buying a dog.

Did you get the dog from a breeder in Devon?
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No it was an un expected litter so she didn't intentionally breed them. I used to live with a lady that had a Canadian Wolf x GSD and fell in love with him so just wanted something similar.

He's the best dog I've ever had, so loyal, loving and never leaves my side. An angel to train and very obidient! Love him :) I would have a million of them haha.

And again I apologise about missing off the wolfDOG bit in my post....means a lot to some people lol
 
Update on the "poo" situation of my Wolfdog pup....

Been on Natural Instinct since Friday, obviously mixed with the dreaded Pedigree at first but now almost completely off it and.....they're 100% solid! Woohoo! All dogs are now on it, Chi and Chi x LOVE it and also the once fussy Husky wolfs it down too (excuse the pun) :rolleyes:

So thank you to everyone who gave brilliant advice, have a happier group of doggies and they're all on raw meat.

I see this has been a very interesting post in many ways....glad to be entertainment for you all!! :D
 
RCP Equestrian said:
Update on the "poo" situation of my Wolfdog pup....

Been on Natural Instinct since Friday, obviously mixed with the dreaded Pedigree at first but now almost completely off it and.....they're 100% solid! Woohoo! All dogs are now on it, Chi and Chi x LOVE it and also the once fussy Husky wolfs it down too (excuse the pun) :rolleyes:

So thank you to everyone who gave brilliant advice, have a happier group of doggies and they're all on raw meat.

I see this has been a very interesting post in many ways....glad to be entertainment for you all!! :D
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Natural instinct is just the best - but it is far too expensive to feed my 2 giants on. My daughter feeds her 2 chihuahuas on it, and they thrive on it.

You will never regret going native - it is the best food for any dog, well done you!
 
Nikki J said:
Natural instinct is just the best - but it is far too expensive to feed my 2 giants on. My daughter feeds her 2 chihuahuas on it, and they thrive on it.

You will never regret going native - it is the best food for any dog, well done you!
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I know it is more but as long as they're all healthy and looking amazing then a little extra wont do me any harm, I will just have to go on to smart price instead of Heinz :rolleyes: but, the Natural Instinct warehouse is only a few miles away in Camberley so that will save me the £6.50 delivery too...perfect :)
 
Just as an aside, I was feeding Frolic out of my pockets as a training treat a few weeks ago and OH MY WORD you do not want to think about the colour and the consistency of what that produced!!!
 
Glad you switched to RAW. Sooo much better - I wish more vets would recommend it. I've not read the entire thread but another website to try is barfpetfoods.co.uk
 
Embo said:
Glad you switched to RAW. Sooo much better - I wish more vets would recommend it. I've not read the entire thread but another website to try is barfpetfoods.co.uk
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It is much better and I'm glad I managed to find a way of feeding it where the dogs love it and I'm more than happy serving it! :) thanks for that, still looking at other foods too just to expand my knowledge on it all really!
 
CaveCanem said:
Just as an aside, I was feeding Frolic out of my pockets as a training treat a few weeks ago and OH MY WORD you do not want to think about the colour and the consistency of what that produced!!!
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Glad I finished my dinner before I read this! :eek: LOL I can imagine, if they were anything like how my puupies were....YUK. Its crazy to think they are allowed to sell these types of food if they are or can be potentially dangerous to feed dogs!?

Glad my lot are on good proper food and I know exactly each ingredient :)

Happy days
 
RCP Equestrian said:
Glad I finished my dinner before I read this! :eek: LOL I can imagine, if they were anything like how my puupies were....YUK. Its crazy to think they are allowed to sell these types of food if they are or can be potentially dangerous to feed dogs!?
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It's crazy, the food is marketed as juicy, moist and rich in beef when the actual meat continent is negligible!! Almost all grains.
I don't feel too guilty, it was just one small bag fed in very small amounts over about three weeks from my pockets, like an occasional McDonalds is how I am rationalising it!!! He is on chicken and tripe the rest of the time.
 
Ive said this before and its worth repeating as it kind of ties in with the title of this thread,. When we first bought our Lancashire Heeler puppy we took her to the vet for a check up and the vet asked what we were feeding her, we said raw and the vet said why she is not a wolf.:eek::D

We changed vets after that and the new vet is very supportive of raw.
 
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