Best lunging aid

[sbloom]

This is really interesting. I don't lunge much anyway but am keen to know how you get a horse (especially an Arab like mine) to lower their neck and lift their back when lunging without any training aids? This is a genuine question btw, not a dig at anyone.

Once you really understand the basics of correct locomotion in the horse, you can see the two aren't related. An advanced horse has a lifted back and a very lifted neck, as an example. It's about cause and effect, lowering the neck will never, on its own, cause the RIGHT part of the back to lift, which is actually not the back, but the thoracic sling. Lifting the shoulders "out of the way", in very simplistic terms, allows the hind leg to come under. Bringing the head down is more likely to pin the thoracic sling down, especially if the horse hasn't had the right bodywork, and ideally some in hand work, to actually mobilise and activate the right bits. Ask the horse to do something it hasn't been prepared for (eg long and low in head and neck) and you'll get unforseen consequences.

I could not agree more and brilliantly out Sbloom. What are your thoughts on lunging/long reining with no gadgets just two lines through stirrups?

I'm not the biggest fan of side reins either, and this in effect gives the horse side reins. I know some make them work well and I'm sure Cortez does (side reins that is), and they may have a place in backing when training contact, but not, in my mind, for postural work. Double rein lunging again can work well, I'm sure, in the right hands, but the trainers I most admire don't do it. The reins are generally set pretty low but however high or low there's a fixity in the inside rein especially, unless you allow the horse to move well ahead of you then you're causing leverage through that inside stirrup and what you think is moving/giving, really isn't. A good contact has a forwards energy and is never completely static, and should never be restraining unless it's part of the way you half halt. A side rein is either fixed, or has an unnatural bounce from elastic/donuts, not at all the same as an educated contact. I've seen the difference where the elbows are right, the forearm is slightly lifted and offered forwards, combined with an aligned (not rotated or otherwise wonky) torso and you suddenly see horses push up in front almost immediately. We don't need half as many active aids as we use, we need to sit correctly and so much more is then just THERE for us as riders.

Lifiting the thoracic sling doesn't need a horse to work into a contact as such, and if we needed hotses to work into a contact at all times then I'd not be watching the BLISS that is someone like Anja Beran working a horse at liberty though a GP dressage test.

A horse cannot carry us efficiently without lifting the thoracic sling - pure and simple. And lifting the thoracic sling has elements of release (bodywork), straightness, and understanding, as well as the actual physical effort. Look at people like Manolo Mendez and possibly Science of Motion, the latter is a bit impenetrable in the way he writes but I think he's onto something with his fundamental concepts and approach and he's modern in many ways, rejecting many traditional concepts.

Thoughts on the bands that just go round the bum? Never tried one but very interested.

The rehab trainers I admire again don't use them on the whole, I like the TTeam bodywrapping which is about proprioception, just a soft, gentle reminder as to where their body is. Placing pressure on the back end to come under without freeing up/lifting the front end is again going to give unforseen consequences including, I think (I'm not a bodyworker, this is saddle fitter level of understanding, though that's always a work in progress!) compressing the SI area.

 

[Starzaan]

A bridle is a gadget. A saddle is a gadget.

That’s true! I hadn’t thought of that ?
Personally, I lunge mine totally naked. I like them to learn to go completely off my voice if needed, so they all learn to lunge with nothing on them at all, no line, no headcollar, nothing.
But absolutely well pointed out. I hadn’t really considered that!

 

[Jellymoon]

Once you really understand the basics of correct locomotion in the horse, you can see the two aren't related. An advanced horse has a lifted back and a very lifted neck, as an example. It's about cause and effect, lowering the neck will never, on its own, cause the RIGHT part of the back to lift, which is actually not the back, but the thoracic sling. Lifting the shoulders "out of the way", in very simplistic terms, allows the hind leg to come under. Bringing the head down is more likely to pin the thoracic sling down, especially if the horse hasn't had the right bodywork, and ideally some in hand work, to actually mobilise and activate the right bits. Ask the horse to do something it hasn't been prepared for (eg long and low in head and neck) and you'll get unforseen consequences.



I'm not the biggest fan of side reins either, and this in effect gives the horse side reins. I know some make them work well and I'm sure Cortez does (side reins that is), and they may have a place in backing when training contact, but not, in my mind, for postural work. Double rein lunging again can work well, I'm sure, in the right hands, but the trainers I most admire don't do it. The reins are generally set pretty low but however high or low there's a fixity in the inside rein especially, unless you allow the horse to move well ahead of you then you're causing leverage through that inside stirrup and what you think is moving/giving, really isn't. A good contact has a forwards energy and is never completely static, and should never be restraining unless it's part of the way you half halt. A side rein is either fixed, or has an unnatural bounce from elastic/donuts, not at all the same as an educated contact. I've seen the difference where the elbows are right, the forearm is slightly lifted and offered forwards, combined with an aligned (not rotated or otherwise wonky) torso and you suddenly see horses push up in front almost immediately. We don't need half as many active aids as we use, we need to sit correctly and so much more is then just THERE for us as riders.

Lifiting the thoracic sling doesn't need a horse to work into a contact as such, and if we needed hotses to work into a contact at all times then I'd not be watching the BLISS that is someone like Anja Beran working a horse at liberty though a GP dressage test.

A horse cannot carry us efficiently without lifting the thoracic sling - pure and simple. And lifting the thoracic sling has elements of release (bodywork), straightness, and understanding, as well as the actual physical effort. Look at people like Manolo Mendez and possibly Science of Motion, the latter is a bit impenetrable in the way he writes but I think he's onto something with his fundamental concepts and approach and he's modern in many ways, rejecting many traditional concepts.



The rehab trainers I admire again don't use them on the whole, I like the TTeam bodywrapping which is about proprioception, just a soft, gentle reminder as to where their body is. Placing pressure on the back end to come under without freeing up/lifting the front end is again going to give unforseen consequences including, I think (I'm not a bodyworker, this is saddle fitter level of understanding, though that's always a work in progress!) compressing the SI area.

Thank you so much for this, all very interesting. I have had a look at Science in Motion but just couldn’t focus well enough to wade through his writing. I’ll try Manolo Mendez.

 

[sbloom]

Thank you so much for this, all very interesting. I have had a look at Science in Motion but just couldn’t focus well enough to wade through his writing. I’ll try Manolo Mendez.

Apparently, once you get past the accent, he's brilliant in real life. I will try to get to his next clinic/demo (ditto Manolo, but I have the wonderful Dan Wain as a customer, who trained with him).

 

[Cortez]

Apparently, once you get past the accent, he's brilliant in real life. I will try to get to his next clinic/demo (ditto Manolo, but I have the wonderful Dan Wain as a customer, who trained with him).

Love Manolo. What accent? ?

 

[sbloom]

Love Manolo. What accent? ?

Jean Luc Cornille's accent, trying to get to both clinics , but yes, I think the accent applies to both!

 

[tallyho!]

I don’t agree that a saddle or bridle are gadgets in this sense…

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Use two long reins, progress to a lunging harness in due course. .
The horse needs to build up his musculature correctly over a long period of time, months not weeks, a good light rider will also help.
A lot of people lunge their horse to get rid of excess energy, that's not going to develop the horse, better to let it have more turnout.

 

[sbloom]

Use two long reins, progress to a lunging harness in due course. .
The horse neds to build up his musculature correctly over a long period of time, months not weeks, a good light rider will also help.
A lot of people lunge their horse to get rid of excess energy, that's not going to develop the horse, better to let it have more turnout.

Can you define lunging harness? For me long reining absolutely has its place but for many less expert riders the horses bear down on hands, on the forehand, often very btv. Walking very very slowly over irregular terrain, or the same down a slight incline, will likely do more to build the back. But there are absolutely people out there who do it brilliantly, right up the SRS.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Can you define lunging harness? For me long reining absolutely has its place but for many less expert riders the horses bear down on hands, on the forehand, often very btv. Walking very very slowly over irregular terrain, or the same down a slight incline, will likely do more to build the back. But there are absolutely people out there who do it brilliantly, right up the SRS.

I am not sure of the correct name, it's a girth that has different D rings to thread the long reins through, so it's the hands of the trainer who controls the pressure on the bit if using a bridle, a soft bit gives best results. A young horse needs to be encouraged, not forced in to an artificial head carriage as seen in horses lunged with fixed reins.

 

[sbloom]

I am not sure of the correct name, it's a girth that has different D rings to thread the long reins through, so it's the hands of the trainer who controls the pressure on the bit if using a bridle, a soft bit gives best results. A young horse needs to be encouraged, not forced in to an artificial head carriage as seen in horses lunged with fixed reins.

A roller , agree with not fixing or forcing but I'm still only really on board with work done without reins/training aids.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I had a young horse that had been rushed, and I did not realise he would never have been lunged, he nearly took of over the manege rails.
I had been loose schooling and had backed him for best part of a year.
He was undeveloped hind quarters, it took three months light cantering on a slope to build up inner thighs and gaskin.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Yes, a roller, mind went blank. Everything you use is a training aid.
Its the skill of the handler that makes the difference.
You're not going to train a riding horse or a driving horse without using reins.

 

[sbloom]

Yes, a roller, mind went blank. Everything you use is a training aid.
Its the skill of the handler that makes the difference.
You're not going to train a riding horse or a driving horse without using reins.

Side reins, Vienna reins, De Gogue etc no...lunge rein, in hand rein, rope halter for some, good cavesson preferably Spanish, yes. Long reins in the right hands. Of course I didn't mean forever liberty train and ride with no reins...

 

[Hackback]

What a very informative thread, thank you. TBH I'm struggling a bit now to see how lunging is useful for a healthy established horse. I get it for teaching youngsters, rehabbing and exercising horses that can't be ridden for whatever reason, but as a form of training is there any point? Isn't riding a better exercise?

I sometimes lunge mine over poles with an elasticated tail bandage tied round his quarters, as recommended by a physio for strengthening his back, but on my yard I'm used to seeing horses in pessoas or similar gadgets being 'taught' how to work in an outline, the intention being that the training carries over into ridden work.

You are making me question my learned beliefs!

 

[Sossigpoker]

This is really interesting. I don't lunge much anyway but am keen to know how you get a horse (especially an Arab like mine) to lower their neck and lift their back when lunging without any training aids? This is a genuine question btw, not a dig at anyone.

You start by long reining and turn that into lunging with two reins. Your hands should have the same contact as when riding , your voice or whip if you use one acts as the drive forward.
There is zero benefit in just letting a horse charge around in a circle, that's not working and they're just bound to get injured.

 

[Sossigpoker]

What a very informative thread, thank you. TBH I'm struggling a bit now to see how lunging is useful for a healthy established horse. I get it for teaching youngsters, rehabbing and exercising horses that can't be ridden for whatever reason, but as a form of training is there any point? Isn't riding a better exercise?

I sometimes lunge mine over poles with an elasticated tail bandage tied round his quarters, as recommended by a physio for strengthening his back, but on my yard I'm used to seeing horses in pessoas or similar gadgets being 'taught' how to work in an outline, the intention being that the training carries over into ridden work.

You are making me question my learned beliefs!

I'm not sure it is that useful for a healthy, established horse.

 

[Cortez]

Lunging is one of the most useful ways of working a horse in hand, both before it is trained to be ridden and throughout its working life. Unfortunately it is somewhat of a blunt instrument if you don't understand how to do it properly. It is most certainly NOT just running around in circles, which is what is mostly practised in this part of the world. Just like work on the long or short hand reins, it is something that should be properly taught by advanced trainers to inexperienced ones.

 

[tallyho!]

A good place to start learning about lungng is Klaus Schoneich's book 'correct movement in horses' or 'straightening the crooked horse'. Every movement has a purpose.

Working horses in hand (like they do in the SRS) is also very valuable, more valuable than lunging try Straightness Training but many other experts exist!

 

[wiglet]

Well... I have a German String, a Pessoa and a roller with side reins but, I don't use any of them - which appears to be the right answer.
For once, my laziness has made me an accomplished horsewoman

 

[Cortez]

A good place to start learning about lungng is Klaus Schoneich's book 'correct movement in horses' or 'straightening the crooked horse'. Every movement has a purpose.

Working horses in hand (like they do in the SRS) is also very valuable, more valuable than lunging try Straightness Training but many other experts exist!

The SRS lunge horses, quite a lot, actually.

 

[sbloom]

What a very informative thread, thank you. TBH I'm struggling a bit now to see how lunging is useful for a healthy established horse. I get it for teaching youngsters, rehabbing and exercising horses that can't be ridden for whatever reason, but as a form of training is there any point? Isn't riding a better exercise?

I sometimes lunge mine over poles with an elasticated tail bandage tied round his quarters, as recommended by a physio for strengthening his back, but on my yard I'm used to seeing horses in pessoas or similar gadgets being 'taught' how to work in an outline, the intention being that the training carries over into ridden work.

You are making me question my learned beliefs!

There is a fundamental misunderstanding with a huge proportion of the riding population, and trainers, about why and how we should be educating our horses to move. We need to make our horses straight and to make them lift their thoracic sling, the one being necessary for the other, but we don't make it difficult to work in a different way/wrong thing (rope slapping them up the bum, hold the head down), we mobilise the body, free the blocked bits, activate the "sleeping" bits and then strengthen the bits, giving the horse easy ways to do the right thing. Much of that is from our body language/alignment (as it is when riding, critical), every little move we make has influence on a prey animal.

A good place to start learning about lungng is Klaus Schoneich's book 'correct movement in horses' or 'straightening the crooked horse'. Every movement has a purpose.

Working horses in hand (like they do in the SRS) is also very valuable, more valuable than lunging try Straightness Training but many other experts exist!

Yes, was going to suggest looking at some ARR posts, it's a very particular method of utilising lunge work, and not for the inexperienced or feint hearted, but it flipping works.

There are programmes that amateurs can learn from, there are hands on trainers too, but resources such as Jec Ballou, Manolo Mendez and Adventures with Jenku, all can help less experienced owners and riders start some groundwork. Reading as much as possible about correct posture, the really good bodyworkers such as Tami Elkyam (there are lots of others, but she posts good content), remedial trainers such as ARR and Science of Motion, all bring the bigger picture and I hope, over time, will lead to fewer and fewer people listening to advice such as using a Pessoa.

And this just popped up on my FB this morning

https://www.facebook.com/TheConfidentRider/posts/480354626779644

 

[onemoretime]

I got thrown off a FB kissing spines group today for (I don't think unkindly) suggesting gadgets weren't the way to do it. If someone could describe how holding the head down facilitates biomechanically better posture (ie this lifting of the thoracic sling), I'm all ears! Very well respected physio Gillian Tabor had been completely agreeing with me in another similar post, it's such a shame that everyone gets so defensive. Just because it's how lots of people do it, and it looks quicker, doesn't mean it's right.

You really do talk a whole world of common sense dont you. I love reading your posts you have so much experience and someone in your line of duty would certainly see some very sore horses, it makes me sad when people don't or wont realise that their horses aren't quite right which in time knocks on to lameness and only then do they realise that something is wrong.

 

[sbloom]

You really do talk a whole world of common sense dont you. I love reading your posts you have so much experience and someone in your line of duty would certainly see some very sore horses, it makes me sad when people don't or wont realise that their horses aren't quite right which in time knocks on to lameness and only then do they realise that something is wrong.

Thank you *blush*

It's not just about sore though, it's about being able to predict lameness down the road with horses that are posturally compromised. Common symptoms include saddle slip, both forwards and sideways - there are other causes of course but posture and straightness issues can so often look like saddle fit issues.

 

[blitznbobs]

I like side reins to get a horse used to the feel of a contact (not to syrap his head down. I also like to lunge with 2reins with the inside rein through the bit ring and clipped to the inside d on the saddle so you can start teaching about bend from the floor .