Best way to cover a mare

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Have to agree with vicijp. The best way is the way that works for that particular mare! Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't get any more expensive than some of the TB racing stallions - and they can't even consider A.I. Personally, I like a mare to have a bit of fun, and know what it's all about - then I use A.I. if the stallion is too far away/not practical. I am of the opinion though that too many stallions are wrapped up in cotton wool - they don't know or care what they're valued at, and jumping a lump of plastic several times a week must be pretty monotonous!

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The thing is the stallion's owners DO know how they are valued and like it or not, they need to be looked after. Would you let achild play by the side of a motorway? err... NO!!

Guys...It has been proven complete **** that Natural is the only way for some mares. The only reason that AI wouldnt work is bad management/inexperience. The reason that it may not have worked as stated somewhere bove is because when covered naturally the mare produces oxytocin which helps her to get pregnant. This is now usually injected, or an experienced AI tec will massage the cervix to help the mare to produce it for herself.


Also, remember the title of the post guys! Its asking for peoples opinions on the best way to cover a mare.. the whole point of this forum is for opinions and debates.. if you feel you are losing an argument getting catty wont help your cause!(saying someone is naive because you dont agree with their views is a bit childish...)
 
Actually, I am pretty sick and tired of EVERYTHING being wrapped in blooming cotton wool these days! NO i would not let a child play beside a motorway, but I would allow it the chance of some freedom - precious few kids have any independence this day and age. But that is not the point. Horses have been doing what comes natural for several MILLION years. Then along we come and say, sh*g that lump of plastic, live entirely alone, have absolutely no herd, no hierarchy ect... Do you think that's better? I am not against ANY form of breeding, but I do think that just because a horse is worth X amount it shouldn't have a life. As I said before IMO it depends enormously on the mare, and what suits her/her cycle/her owner best.
 
Who says the horses don't have a life, all my stallions get daily turn out, as do alot of other AI based studs, they do not live entirely alone, mine live on a yard where they can see everything that is going on, there is mares and gelding on the same yard and are very content, they have lovely personalities and are as happy as any of my other horses, they go on hacks with other horses and do not live a life of solitary as people like to believe that we keep them in! It still doesn't mean I am going to run them with mares and take unnecessary risks with them... to me turn out is a necessary risk for my horse to take, being exercised is a necessary risk for my horse to take... but running with mares in unnecessary risk for him to take, when he can cover inhand or even better be used via AI reducing the risks.
 
This is getting silly and judgemental now, as the (hopefully responsible) owner of a colt I find it rather harsh to suggest the stallions dont have a life and are miserable. Most stallions get some form of turnout that is enough, and suggesting we are bad owners because we dont let them run in a herd is ridiculous.

As stated earlier, re visiting mares being turned out with a stallion: most horses have some kicking and biting matches when they are firts turned out together, be it geldings, mares, even yearlings can 'fight'. As most stallion ownders are probably competing their stallion, this would be extremely unadvisable, I wouldn't look at a stallion with lumps out of it, thinking that it wasn't being taken care of properly and it would make the stallion look shabby in the least.

Also, if a stallion got loose could you imaging what would happen if it covered a mare it shouldn't, or the RSPCA bright sparks came along and gelded it?!
 
Regarding twining .... many of my colleagues have been breeding for 30 years plus, a few for over 50.... back in the day they did not have scanners and did not have the possibility of detecting/pinching twins..

Most have moved with the times and are scanning and frequently having twins removed but others don't and still breed in the most natural of ways, no vets, no scanners, no science.

The general consensus between them during a recent discussion was that on a prorata basis they all felt very few mares ever had twins / lost twins through abortion in comparison to the number of twins that are removed by pinching by their vets and that when left to mother nature she was was adequately equipped to deal with the eventual ties?? your thoughts..???

On the AI V Au Natural debate, I have to to agree that the manner that some posters express their views does come across as categorising those that breed in hand or by natural as negligent, irresponsible and unprofessional even if it is not the intention.
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Its a shame we don't have a few more experienced racing stud breeders as members as I feel this thread would be reading quite differently, as they most definitely hold their stallions and horses in high regards.
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If the risks were truly as high as some are portraying the industry would have changed over many years ago.
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Personally we use all three methods, so am neither for nor against and see the benefits of all but evidently understand that if ones livelihood depends on one method and one method only they are more likely have a tendency to "preach"
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I know of a few (expensive) stallions that run with their mares, and still go out and compete ect... IMO they are much more relaxed in a show atmosphere, because at the end of the day they are going back to their herd. They are used to interaction with other horses. The stallion that is kept just for covering dummy or mare is bound to be more wound up! It's just common sense. If you can't afford to lose a horse, you shouldn't have it - as we all know they can kill themselves walking up a field! The breeder just has to decide which is the best method of covering for their mare, I prefer to let the mare at least try it naturally once. But that is my preference.
 
Some very good points SH. Our two year colt runs with our herd and has gained weight and condition living in a herd environment being introduced after all but one mare was scanned in foal. He respects the mares who are happy to interact with him, the foals play with him and the herd is well and truly respectful of the hierarchy that is in place. All horses living together with other horses risk being kicked or bitten everyday they spend together, even in the most well established herd environments. The under fives are the most aggressive and difficult as they have usually not yet found their status within the group.
 
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Actually, I am pretty sick and tired of EVERYTHING being wrapped in blooming cotton wool these days! NO i would not let a child play beside a motorway, but I would allow it the chance of some freedom - precious few kids have any independence this day and age. But that is not the point. Horses have been doing what comes natural for several MILLION years. Then along we come and say, sh*g that lump of plastic, live entirely alone, have absolutely no herd, no hierarchy ect... Do you think that's better? I am not against ANY form of breeding, but I do think that just because a horse is worth X amount it shouldn't have a life.

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I dont think that you can really say that they where brought from the wild in their natural state and told to shag a dummy.. we have already taken them out of their habitat, changed their diet, changed their behaviour, pretty much domesticated them. They are sometimes kept in stables, wormed, vaccinated, see a farrier...why is it people think they can make exceptions when it comes to breeding and put their horses at unnecessary risk just so they can say its more natural?(I am well aware that however much you try to protect horses they have a way of injuring themselves anyway)

As horse owners I BELIEVE we take a responsibility to do the best for our horses and to keep them safe and sound, fit and healthy. If people feel that they want to see horses in their natural state I would personally prefer they go for a holiday in the new forest/exmoor and not own/breed horses themselves! It worries me a lot...

My horses are all perfectly happy, enjoy their work and their routines. I do what I think makes them happy without risking their safety unnecessarily. IT IS MY OPINION that running mares and stallions together when they are unfamiliar with each other is bad practice. It does not mean that I am making a statement about the character of the people that choose to do it.

I do hope that the mare has a "nice" time at stud and comes back healthy and pregnant. I'm sure she will!
 
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I know of a few (expensive) stallions that run with their mares, and still go out and compete ect... IMO they are much more relaxed in a show atmosphere, because at the end of the day they are going back to their herd. They are used to interaction with other horses. The stallion that is kept just for covering dummy or mare is bound to be more wound up! It's just common sense.

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My stallions are nothing less than impeccible at shows and are no more wound up because they only cover a dummy than any stallion that runs with mares. My stallion stands in the corner of the collecting ring with horses buzzing past and people stand really close to him and have absolutely no idea they are even in the presence of a stallion (dispite his disks and ribbons) when someone gets abit close for safety sake I say just be aware he is a stallion (he usually has his eyes shut and is snoozing it neither here nor there to him).

As for saying, if you can't afford to lose a horse, you shouldn't have it, well......... actually I am not going to even dignify that with a response.
 
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If you can't afford to lose a horse, you shouldn't have it

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can barely believe I'm hearing this! I'm aghast! This has NOTHING to do with cost. No one wants to lose a horse, the reason we take precautions is to MINIMISE the risks and try to prevent that happening and I don't believe anyone here thinks that horses can't seriously injure themselves whilst in a field, being ridden or even in the stable.

Opie are you planning to let the colt run out as a 3 and 4 year old? Just curious. I'd be happy for my 2 year old to live in a heard but not so sure if I would when I'm getting him ready for being backed or competeing.
 
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Horses have been doing what comes natural for several MILLION years.

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Indeed they did. Wild horses began to develop about 55 million years ago. But they were just that... WILD.

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Then along we come and say, sh*g that lump of plastic, live entirely alone, have absolutely no herd, no hierarchy ect... Do you think that's better?

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About 6,500 years ago, domestication of horses began. Domesticated horses and wild horses are very different. When people own horses, whether or not they breed, they are not taking a wild horse that has grown up wild and suddenly isolating it. They are taking a domesticated horse, that has been transformed from a wild horse by up to 6,500 years of selected breeding, and keeping it in the environment in which it has grown up. If a horse runs with a herd all its life, then it will understand how to behave. If you take a domesticated horse, and suddenly throw it into a situation which is natural for a wild horse.. you're asking for trouble. Nature stopped playing as much of a role when we started domesticating the horse. You simply cannot argue that natural covering is better for the horses in that respect.

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I am not against ANY form of breeding, but I do think that just because a horse is worth X amount it shouldn't have a life. As I said before IMO it depends enormously on the mare, and what suits her/her cycle/her owner best.

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Perhaps everyone should stop riding/owning horses? That is really the only way they would have a "life" as you describe it. Otherwise, people taking "care" of their horses... well, that's wrapping them in cotton wool, isn't it? Trimming feet, shoes, grooming, vaccinations, worming, feed, supplements... all things that we do because we value our animals.

So, it is the same if you choose to cover natually or with AI. It is just another way in which you care for the horse. But, as I've outlined above, I believe that natural covering, when there are alternatives available, is unecessarily risky for the animals involved.
 
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vets costs are a nuisance but I'm sure your foals are worth it!\:)

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Def worth it! Just sometimes wish obtainable market value was better in the UK, so far i think in my breeding project i am at a loss but thats all for a new thread i think lol
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If you can't afford to lose a horse, you shouldn't have it

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can barely believe I'm hearing this! I'm aghast! This has NOTHING to do with cost. No one wants to lose a horse, the reason we take precautions is to MINIMISE the risks and try to prevent that happening and I don't believe anyone here thinks that horses can't seriously injure themselves whilst in a field, being ridden or even in the stable.

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Quite agree with the voice of reason - Navalgem.

The first quote from SpottySport - what are you on about? How do you think the whole basis of the horse world works? How do you think anyone makes a living from it, and who do you think supplies the horses?! People who make a living out of breeding and training horses. These people can't afford to take risks with animals that might help feed or clothe them, and as for more expensive stallions - maybe they don't need the money so much. But money aside, everyone should do the best to take care of their horse.

For those of you who don't think it happens - read this Story of an unlucky stallion. Granted, this is about mules, but the principle is still the same: I am just using this article as it is well written and describes the points that most people here are trying to make.
 
Opie are you planning to let the colt run out as a 3 and 4 year old? Just curious. I'd be happy for my 2 year old to live in a heard but not so sure if I would when I'm getting him ready for being backed or competeing.

Chances are he will follow the same pattern as the other boys have, he will leave us for training as a rising three year old, then return to us next spring/summer after licensing, but yes he will run with his mares (our mares only) as a three and four year old as with the other two in competition his training will be onhold for a few years yet.

You are more than welcome to come and visit and watch them interact. There is so much talk of accidents risks and danger in these threads I think you would find it interesting to see that that is far from reality. Stallions mares and horses in general are very very cautious amongst one another.
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lol, shouldn't say that opie I'd love to come and see the foals anyway! lol

I dunno, I'm a bit divided, my own mares whom he'd been with a long time would be one thing but def wouldn't let him run with visiting or 'strange' mares.

I used my colt on my mare this year and it was his 1st time and he was (for the most part) naturally cautious about it and and approached the mare carefully, the 2nd occassion he covered he was a bit like a bull in a china shop and was kicked and luckily only took some skin off but it settled him down and he was sesible therafter. However, it is so unlike my mare to kick (had 5 stallions jump on her 2 years previous to try and cover her) and it did make me wary. Also some stallions have died after being kicked by a mare and I also understnad and desire to minmise the risks as far as possible.
 
Opie if I understand you correctly you will only be running your colt with your own mares?

Do any of your stallions at stud run out with visiting mares? Or would you consider that too high a risk?

(No criticism implied or intended either way - just curious, as your horses are clearly valuable, high-quality beasties!)
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lol, shouldn't say that opie I'd love to come and see the foals anyway! lol

Great any time! Did you cover her inhand or loose? Many mares are intimidated when approached by a stallion from behind, in their natural state they observe the mare daily and approach her when she starts giving signals that she is receptive, winking, peeing, and evidently stallions are very sensitive to change of odor in a mares urine and dung hence the reason the spend so much time sniffing the ground. From personal observation, stallions prefer to approach a mare from the front, noses meet and if the mare is receptive she will swing her body round to meet his and he will 9 times out of 10 mount her from the side not from behind as a safety net, if the mare squeals stamps or kicks the stallion knows to back off and he will await a more opertune moment. Mares also prefer to know the stallion that they are likely to mate with so turning a mare in season out with a stallion she has never met hoping everything will go to plan is unlikely to work, several weeks later after introduction the story is quite different.
 
I covered her inhand. his stable is right next to the arena we use to cover in and he'd teased her well himself (noses first) then down her neck and withers and sniffed her quarters, she won't move after a stallion has gone near her so we turned her and cal's handler just let him walk a circle whilst she was moved (I was hoping he'd move round himself but bless it was his 1st time), then he stood behind at a distance and extended his nose and slowly crept forward whilst wickering, teased her closer for a minute til she squirted and squatted, then he jumped up, did the deed and jumped off and calmly went back to bed, and didn't even leave his net as we walked her back past! (The pic in far right of my sig was taken just after he covered her the 2nd time)
 
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Opie if I understand you correctly you will only be running your colt with your own mares?

Do any of your stallions at stud run out with visiting mares? Or would you consider that too high a risk?

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We only run our colt with our own mares, not due to the high risk but because we rarely take visiting mares in order to preserve our grazing, we never know what the climate will throw at us each year.

We have a local AI centre BMQ approved with over 30 years experience with acces to the best equine reproduction vets from the Royal Dick Vet for problem cases close by so prefer to request that mares be sent there, or semen is shipped to mare owners.
 
IN MY OPINION as I said, I think a mare should be covered in a way that suits her/her owner/the stallion best. Yes I sounded a bit harsh saying that if you can't afford to lose a horse you shouldn't have it, but as we all know accidents can happen in the stable, as well as in the covering shed. I only pointed out that due to their value, some stallions are kept quite unnaturally. I have used A.I. my mare has run with a stallion and has been covered in hand. It depended on what was right that year for that mare!
That is only MY opinion.
 
Bbmat & Horsegroupie – I did not say ‘you are naïve’, I said the statement was naïve and I have explained why. Perhaps ‘naïve’ was the wrong phrase, but I have explained why I said it and I feel that saying you can’t understand why people would turn mares and stallions out together is a bit ‘tunnel vision’ ? I was just saying, as I have said lots of times, you have to judge each case by it’s merits. I am by no means as experienced a breeder or probably horse owner as either of you, but I still stand by what I said originally that sweeping statements on a forum like this with so many different people with different aims (as you say HG, pony breeding is very different to say TB breeding) is bound to cause a debate of some kind.

And it wasn’t I who suggested I was being sneered at for my choices, I just feel this forum can be bias at times, although I like to think I’ve remained light hearted about this debate throughout, as bbmat has said (more recently) let’s not forget the original post – I was trying to get across that everyone has different opinions and methods, but let’s not discount anyones for sake of our own. I certainly do not have a bad word to say about AI or any practises, as I have maintained throughout.

HG – I was advised on what was the best method to cover my mare, both vets and stud owner advised this way forward as first try, namely because she was so stressy and apparently that was affecting her ‘fluid’ amounts. After spending £4000 on vet treatments for her leg problem in March this year, I don’t consider myself stingy with vets! Hopefully I now have a mare who is happy to be covered and stay at stud, which is what I wanted above all. Infact, the stud owner does AI for no extra cost, so I haven’t gained anything. Also, I did mention that the stallion was old and retired in an earlier post.

I put forward my circumstances to show that a decision had been made to use the method I did and why, which I feel is justified. I have been a member on here for a long time and whilst I mostly read, I enjoy being involved in things like this (even if it gets a bit heated!) as it gives a chance to learn other peoples experiences and views in what is a very changing ‘market’.

*Deep breaths everyone*
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Also just to add that I haven't read all the replies before posting the above - this post is like a runaway train!

I also DO agree that no part of breeding these days is 'natural', in fact, very little about anything we do with our horses is natural these days. I guess running a herd is the closest you can get, and very few people managed this.
 
Oh dear what a shame, this debate has at times resembled something from the Lounge or Soapbox!! I dont believe some of the comments made on here. For instance cant afford to loose a horse dont have one! I have lost 2 mares to broken legs, they were insured so yes I could afford to loose them, but I would rather not have gone through the emotional turmoil. We dictate how are horses live & most of the time it is a far removed from nature as it could be. We choose our mares mate not her. As much as it is nice to see the stallion run with his mares, it is not always practical. Covering in hand can be dangerous not just for the mare & stallion but for the handlers as well. A stud may well know how the stallion will react/behave, but will have little idea about the mare. In hand coverings more often then not hobble, & twitch the mares, I dont see what is natural about that! Unless the stallion runs with his mares & there is no interference then there is nothing natural about getting a mare in-foal. Also as for comments like "have their bit of fun", this may have been a flippent comment, as we have no idea what an animal feels, but if they do enjoy copulation perhaps they would be more receptive other then when they are in season..
 
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Opie if I understand you correctly you will only be running your colt with your own mares?

Do any of your stallions at stud run out with visiting mares? Or would you consider that too high a risk?

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We only run our colt with our own mares, not due to the high risk but because we rarely take visiting mares in order to preserve our grazing, we never know what the climate will throw at us each year.

We have a local AI centre BMQ approved with over 30 years experience with acces to the best equine reproduction vets from the Royal Dick Vet for problem cases close by so prefer to request that mares be sent there, or semen is shipped to mare owners.

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Thanks - hope you don't mind me being nosey! The vast majority of my boy's mares this year have been AI'd at home or at their local vets/AI centre, using shipped, chilled semen (plus a few overseas ones using frozen semen). This seems to be what many breeders want nowadays. Fine, but it does mean that one is dependent on the vets the other end doing their job properly...

Most of them are great, but some had some odd ideas and ways of doing things. My YO was worried about one vet, for example, who receved the chilled semen, shipped overnight, before 9am, as promised, but then put it in the fridge and waited until the evening to inseminate??? YO was like "er, surely the best place for semen is in the mare, not sitting in a fridge for 12 hours"????
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