Better horsemen in days gone by?

[hairycob]

Interesting Caol Ila. Jason was a beggar to mount when I got him & as soon as he was out of his comfort zone it came back. Until one day I really growled at him "stand still you fat ***** git". From that moment on he stood like a rock in any setting. Not that I am advocating racial abuse as a form of horse training but something in my tone of voice made things click with him.

 

[Dry Rot]

I agree about intent and striving to not get angry or lose your temper but can a good hiding be given without emotion/intent?
I am aware people will have completely different ideas of what a good hiding is though. To me it means a good thrashing/repeated hard hitting for more than a second or two.
Do you think there is a difference if my definition is a one off or a regular strategy.
I too wonder what happens to provoke a human to administer a good hiding.

Simple frustration.

I wondered about this too. Then I watched a TV documentary on chimps. You know he sort of thing, the animal is given a problem to solve and rewarded with a banana when it gets it right.

This chimp was put in a cage with a banana suspended from the ceiling and it was provided with a long stick. After a while and some experimentation, the chimp worked out that it could get the banana by using the stick. Then it was given a shorter stick and a box. The ape worked out that it could get the banana by standing on the box and using the stick. And so on. Then the chimp was presented with the unsolvable problem. There were not enough boxes and the stick was too short.

The chimp flew into a rage and used the stick to beat the boxes. (Frankly, I sometimes do the same thing but well out of the way of whatever I am training!!! I then calm down and try and think it out.).

I often think of that chimp when I watch some people training animals….

 

[MissMistletoe]

I don't remember that, but I always stick to the routine of walking for the last 1/3 of a ride and loosening the girth as we approach home.

 

[Ilovemywelshie]

Interesting thread BSL, I think people give up far too easily on their animals, expect them to do everything perfectly straight away. I know of a family that have had five different dogs and given them all away before the years up, makes me sick, what happened to appreciating what is around you, everything is about material things. If it's not perfect , throw it away. Maybe, it wasn't as simple as ,"don't worry il get a new one" in years gone by. People don't seem to have much patience.

 

[fburton]

Horses read emotion/intent better than most people. I have figured that I can stop unwanted behaviour more effectively by smacking a dressage whip against my boot with a lot of intent (and noise) and yes, a pissed off attitude than I could by actually smacking the horse. Horse feels no pain, but boy, she gets the message.

Stopping unwanted behaviour (or, for that matter, obtaining wanted behaviours) by conveying intent is a good alternative. A pattern/method one often sees is intent, e.g. expressed as a growl, a look, or a change in body tension, being used secondarily after an initial physical reprimand. But if intent can be made to work without the physical contact, so much the better, imo. Sometimes all that is needed in a critical situation is to get the horse's attention back on you.

It is the hardest thing to teach people, how to work with horses using their energy. I show them how I can walk up to a horse with no energy and give it a hug, and then a second later, walk up to the horse with energy and intent and get it to move backwards.

It may sound odd, but it is even possible to run up to a horse waving your hands with no energy and the horse will understand the spirit in which it was intended - although it requires a degree of trust to have been established first. It would be unreasonable to expect to be able to do that with an 'wild'/unhandled horse who had not yet learned to interpret human intentions, because the default assumption would be 'predator'!

People like Mark Rashid and Buck Brannaman teach this stuff. The biggest issue I see is that a lot of people are waffley and indecisive in their manner around horses and unaware of their own energy, and the horse has no real clue what the human expects.

Yup, horses learn so much better when the signals are clear.

 

[cundlegreen]

I agree fully with Pearlsasinger. Horses were more carefully watched and tended in days gone by imo. We paid more attention to every little thing in those days, not so much these days I don't think. Owners tend to just turn up and ride. Any problems they call the vet, often for ludicrously inane and trivial reasons. I'm sure, or at least I seriously hope, all is not lost and that there are still some real horsemen around these days. Have to admit, I don't see a lot of these types anymore. People seem to be in such a rush these days; quick fixes required, both medically and training wise. I'm laid back, problems sometimes take time and effort to sort out, and as far as I'm concerned, I have all the time in the world.

You've hit the nail on the head SF. In the good old days, it was called "the horseman's eye" and mean't that people took the time to just stand and look and assess their horses on a daily basis. I still do it everyday, that way, you know if something is slightly"off" either in soundness or condition. Nowadays, everybody just seems to feed willy nilly, not "feed according to work done" as preached by the Pony Club. People don't work their horses as they used to, twenty minutes trotting around the school is hardly work,unless really asking for specific movements and transitions.
Sorry, I'm of the older generation, when every small detail was taken into account. How many people would check their horses droppings for signs of digestive problems, or even see them wee to check they were comfortable? I have a wonderful book called "Horseman" the life of J H Marshall, when no horseman worth his salt would leave a horse's box until they had seen them stale, and when it was common to hack twenty odd miles to a show!! No horseboxes then!

 

[millikins]

I'm not at all sure things are so very different. Black Beauty and Ginger were there to represent all horses and the people they come into contact with and we still have them. Good horsemen and bad, novice grooms, 1st time owners who get ripped off by those they pay to work for them....There's a family in a Bronte novel who fall on hard times, one of the things that upsets them most is that they have to sell the family pony who'd been promised a home for life, so some were "fluffy" too. It was hard on city horses to work on cobbles but is it better that so many nowadays spend their lives going round in circles for which they are equally ill designed?

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I don't remember that, but I always stick to the routine of walking for the last 1/3 of a ride and loosening the girth as we approach home.

Yes, after working the racehorses we dismounted and walked back to the yard, maybe five minutes, this allows horse to stretch and lower the head, and the rider needs the exercise after riding short.
In spring/summer/autumn they get 10 mins unmounted to have a bite of grass and this lets riders catch up on gossip, an essential part of racing yard politics.
Horse are quite sensitive and intelligent in their own way, so they know when you are not pleased with their behaviour, not that they always respond positively.

 

[Orangehorse]

Horses are a lot better off now, in general. They get wormed and the saddles checked. A horse over 12 was considered aged. Can you remember the fuss when Mark Philips took a 14 year old Columbus round Badminton - he was virtually accused of cruelty.

Henry Blake wrote a couple of books about training - he called it empathy but it was very similar to the Mark Rashid/Monty Roberts methods, although some things would not be 100% PC! His father started off taking in horses not just for breaking, but problem horses too. Henry said that in the early days most problem horses were caused by brutality and abuse, but later on (we are approaching the 1970/80s) he said that most of the horses he dealt with had been spoiled by lack of boundaries. He didn't use the "fluffy bunny" words but that is what he was getting at.

 

[Urban Horse]

It may sound odd, but it is even possible to run up to a horse waving your hands with no energy and the horse will understand the spirit in which it was intended - although it requires a degree of trust to have been established first. It would be unreasonable to expect to be able to do that with an 'wild'/unhandled horse who had not yet learned to interpret human intentions, because the default assumption would be 'predator'!


Yup, horses learn so much better when the signals are clear.

Yes, I've lost count of the number of times I've kicked 'elder mare' on the nose..... not deliberately you understand, just that she stands so close to the fence as I'm clambering over, and with my back to her there's an impact of wellie and pink nose. She never takes offence at it, but on the other hand, despite it being a very clear signal, she has never learned that it might be safer to stand back!!!

 

[windand rain]

I think perhaps that horsemen now come in two sort those that want to ride when they feel like it and endure the horse care as a necessary evil Or horsemen that want to watch and learn about their horses moods and existence within a group etc and actually enjoy the horse care part more than the riding.
What seems to missing in all walks of life and training is the strict adherence to boundaries imposed to both animals and in my mind children makes life far more pleasant for the rest of society whether it is a horsy one or not. To be honest in my opinion the abandonment of parental and/or owner responsibility leads to a huge number having no respect and no idea what is right and wrong.
This leads to misery in both animals and kids. They feel devalued and unloved
I do not believe in violence of any kind but that doesn't mean breaking rules do not have consequences oh and never make a threat you are not willing to carry through
So yes there is a bigger percentage of fluffy bunnies but there are still violent and cruel people in the world just as there always has been

 

[Echo Bravo]

In Black Beauty's and Gingers day horses were old at 9 years and worn out.

 

[windand rain]

Yes and children went up chimneys and pit ponies never saw daylight the horses in those days were not pets they were working animals and although cruelty can never be condoned horses before mechanisation were the equivalent of a car, and still are in places where poverty is endemic. A donkey in the third world country may be lucky to make it to 4 years old hence the various charity organisations trying to improve the education. People in black beauty days were poor, worked for peanuts, couldn't afford the horse to not work hard and could barely afford to feed themselves and provide health care for themselves never mind their animals. Sorry there is no comparison between then and now attitudes were completely different as were the uses horses were put to

 

[xspiralx]

but a good hiding smacks of a person who has lost the plot and their temper to me.

If you're hitting a horse in temper then you're serving no purpose.

When I say a 'good hiding' I am not talking about thrashing a horse to an inch of its life. I am talking about two/three good wallops in quick succession, immediately after the horse has misbehaved so it knows what it is being reprimanded for.

Not breaking the skin or terrifying a horse, but more than just giving it a little tap as well.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I think there is a wide disparity between the different versions of 'olden days' that various posters are thinking of.

TBH I was thinking of 'within living memory'. In the 50 or so yrs that I've been riding, I've seen a huge change in attitudes to horses, far more people buying horses, a huge growth in livery yards (many run by people who actually have very little horsemanship), a massive rise in the number of products marketed towards the hobby owner who has money to burn and an inexplicable messiah-like attitude from those who have just learned what the rest of us have known since we were first introduced to horses.

 

[Spring Feather]

I think there is a wide disparity between the different versions of 'olden days' that various posters are thinking of.

TBH I was thinking of 'within living memory'.

So was I. I certainly wasn't think of Black Beauty times, that was long before any of us were born lol! The way the OP wrote this thread implied that too, that she was talking about 'in our lifetime'.

 

[hairycob]

But there was still a huge variation. I can think of a couple of ladies in their 70s whose standard of horse care would horrify most people today. Eg old yo whose attitude to a horse with copd would be to continue to bed on straw, in 24/7 in winter & feed dry hay til it was too far gone then shoot it & really couldn't understand why anybody would bother with trying to manage the condition. After all you can just get another one. And her suggested method of dealing with a nappy horse to get it to leave the yard- have someone whack it's hocks with a length of pipe until it's too scared not to go forward. Ditto for loading problems.
The other one I can think of blindly refuses to accept that excess weight has anything to do with several of her horses getting laminitis - after all they need to be in "show condition".
No you don't have to be young or new to horses to be a prat.

 

[The wife]

Wow! What a fantastic and thought provoking thread it is something that the sister and I discuss at huge lengths during the seemingly never ending hardening work of the hunt horses (something that not many people do these days, while we're at it)

I think a lot of it has to do with the 'I want' culture, we are seeing more and more problems with horses than ever before. Just 3 years ago the vast majority of our summer work were breakers, now they are 'problem horses' and sales livery of horses with 'issues'. The vast majority of these animals are just too much for their owners, they've been fed too much, worked too little and have no basic manners and I believe most of it is down to sheer ignorance. As somebody else has said perhaps in our acceptance of advancing technology with have forgotten the art of communicating properly with our own species, let alone another and so can no longer see when an animal is trying to tell us something, unfortunately it is always the animal that suffers and ends up labelled as 'problem'. I have my own horse with issues but with the correct training and regime he has gone from deaths door to competing. Neither traditional or NH methods were used but instead we watched, listened and allowed him to make his own mind up about which methods are comfortable for him to be accepting of.

Even in just 15years of working with hunt horses I have seen a diminished amount of work needed to keep these animals on the road. We were mentored as young women by a true horsewoman with more knowledge than we could ever wish for, she taught us the importance of hardening work for horses coming back into work after a break and the animals are better for it, allowing flabby muscles to harden into a fit and well animal. I know of one lady who hunts who brings her hunter off summer grass after 5months off, goes cubbing 5/6 times and straight to opening meet. The horse stays fit over the summer by being turned out...

I also think money and time has a huge amount to do with it. Years gone by a horse was a mans livelehood and so he had to look after it and get it right, these days they are a commodity and there will always be another one to replace. While in some ways I am an advocator of this to some extent I will always find the time and energy to place a horse that isn't going to do my job into a home that he will be used and looked after. Not always easy and I will always lose money but to me it isn't about the money, its by doing best with the horse that has no choice in it's future.

I think a lot of training methods are labelled too much, we sit in the "old fashioned" camp as opposed to NH when it comes to training and doing our horses but in days gone by the 2 methods actually overlapped I believe. Alll basics are the same principles of general good horsemanship, a mutual respect for one another and these days i'm mellowing in my attitude towards others who practice the full blown Parelli and NH techniques as age and experience has taught me there are a 100 ways of getting to a goal but not always upon the same path. It's the ignorance that drives me to distraction and sheer frustration, just because someone has read a book, watched a demo or a dvd doesn't give them sufficient knowledge to practice what they have learnt or not as the case may be, leading to confused horses and worried owners. Ignorance is bliss so they say but not when it comes to a living breathing and thinking animal

 

[Dry Rot]

In years gone by, great emphasis was placed on doing what was "correct". So, peer pressure if you like. I clearly remember my grandmother, then in her 70's, correcting me when I said someone had fallen off a horse. "They didn't fall off, dear, they took a tumble or had a spill". That must have been about 100 years ago (possibly more as I suspect she would be quoting what her father had told her) as she was referring to what was correct in her youth. Is there still snobbishness in doing things correctly? An awful lot of people seem to "fall off" these days!!!

 

[Dry Rot]

I think the key to training is to understand the principles. Did they understand these better in the past? Often what works for one species can be adapted to work for another. The advice is often (usually?), if you do such-and-such the horse will do so-and-so. And then it doesn't happen because the horse hasn't read the book. I was regularly shot down for applying dog training logic to horse training, then I read a book by Monty Roberts in which he says teaching children is much the same as training horses!

One tip that has stuck in my mind from a 16th century book written by a professional hawk whisperer (yes, they did have them!) was what to do with a hawk that will not come to call. He explains that most novices will think the bird won't come because it is not hungry enough and reduce the reward, but the opposite is true. Call the bird and give a good reward of something the hawk enjoys. That principle can be applied to the training of any animal. How many load a reluctant horse and then give it a handful of feed or just a scratch? Far better to have it ready for a meal, leave it happily feeding from a good bowl of feed and a hay net, and go and have your lunch! It will be easier to load the next time.

 

[hairycob]

Dry Rot - that is just the sort of thing I did when Jason was young. I used to have lessons at Keysoe some Saturdays & I used to get there early & leave him on the trailer a while with a nuce big haynet to get used to all the "going on" in the car park. Sometimes the same after the lesson. It always amazes me that people go somewhere go straught into a lesson & then shoot straight back home & then get surprised that the horse gets worked up in the trailer at comps.

 

[The wife]

Dry Rot you make an interesting point re training of animals and children, although I have done the opposite with regards to training dogs like horses... I acquired a wonderful labrador puppy in February this year. I am a complete novice when it comes to training dogs (although my husband has trained a fair few gun dogs in his time) He initially laughed at my attempts at training said puppy like a horse but has since embraced my new method and will under duress admit I haven't done a bad job. I have found the same principles apply regardless of horse or dog, ask a question, give the animal time to respond and reward correct behaviour. The trick was initially finding what the reward was to start but generally a big cuddle and tickle is all I need for the pup to realise he has done well. He has never been reprimanded as such for bad behaviour but knows from body language when he has done something incorrectly. It's fascinating really and I know some of the local shooting gentlemen will frown upon it but it works for us. We have a happy, willing and understanding 6month pup. Maybe old training methods of both horse and dog did work upon similar ideas, maybe it's just that newer methods are published more and the handler has more access to media and perhaps peer and social pressure actually influences us more than we think.

 

[spottybotty]

I'd never heard of the use of arsenic on horses before, eeek! This was really interesting to read

Putting arsenic in the feed gave them a very shiny coat!

 

[fburton]

Yes, I've lost count of the number of times I've kicked 'elder mare' on the nose..... not deliberately you understand, just that she stands so close to the fence as I'm clambering over, and with my back to her there's an impact of wellie and pink nose. She never takes offence at it, but on the other hand, despite it being a very clear signal, she has never learned that it might be safer to stand back!!!

Might that be because what matters more to horses is the emotional impact of an action? If getting bopped on the nose by your wellie causes her no upset, she may have no motivation to avoid it in future. We have all seen horses' apparent obliviousness to some discomfort and even pain in some situations, as well as their extreme reactiveness to other stimuli that are clearly not uncomfortable or painful.

Which just goes to show how finely judged punishment must be - to be effective and to avoid detrimental effects like creating fear, resentment, wariness and/or losing trust.

 

[Patchworkpony]

I'm currently doing oral history with farmers, so this is something I've been quite interested in. I'm getting quite a lot of info about the old horsemen, and working horses. It seems to me that these horses were such a huge investment for a farm, that the option to treat them badly just wasn't there. You HAD to have a fit, healthy, sound horse, and you HAD to have a well-behaved horse. The workhorses at least were far less disposable than they seem to be today.

People took great pride in their horse-knowledge, but then again they could be quite secretive about it, and some practices make you cringe today. Before WW1 you find tales of men who could freeze a horse to the spot so that it wouldn't move until he released it. It's generally thought that they used bad smelling substances rubbed on the hooves, chest, nose, or ground, to make the horse simply refuse to walk forward into the smell. I've heard stories about horsemen who were afraid of losing their jobs dosing their horses with arsenic. The theory being that the horse develops a tolerance for it, and then a dependence on it, and if the horseman is fired he won't tell his successor the 'correct' dose. If the successor under-doses the horses lose condition, if he over-doses, well... bye bye Neddy.

Most of the farmers I've spoken to who worked with horses have remembered the incredible bond they had with their horse, because they were spending so many hours with them every day, and the time spent working with them meant that they came to read each horse like a book, so health problems and discomfort would be noticed much quicker. There was also the fear that the horse would become sore or ill or lame and the boss would find out! Some of the old farmers sound genuinely terrifying. But, most of my farmers agree that they think modern horses are 'mollycoddled' and treated as pets rather than as workers, and that they get away with too much because people want to be nice to them and want to be friends with them.

But it seems, from what they say, that there wasn't much chance for novices to mess about with horses back then. Horses were a greater feature of everyday life, more people grew up with horses, more people were employed to look after them, and they would pass knowledge on to younger grooms, ploughmen, etc. More people would have spent their whole lives with a horse as their only form of transport apart from their own feet, and the horse's wellbeing would often be what the family's income relied on. The countryside was much busier, and more populous back then, so even those who didn't know much would have been surrounded by experienced horsemen (and women) who would be able to set them straight. Plus people who didn't need a horse generally wouldn't have had the budget to buy one unless they also had the budget to pay for experienced people to look after them as well. A far greater proportion of a family's income would be spent on the real basics, food, heat, light, clothing, even in a comparatively well-off household, which wouldn't leave much for non-horsey parents to buy their kid a pony. Kids with ponies, by and large, had parents with horses. According to my research, anyway.

Excuse the novel. This topic is something I'm REALLY interested in. (I am a riot at parties :-/ )

This by far one of the most telling and interesting piece I have ever read about the 'old horse days'. It also answers the question as to why there was so much more knowledge in those days. Now anyone who fancies one can just buy a horse and then tries to learn how to keep it - or doesn't even bother to learn!

 

[Dry Rot]

Dry Rot you make an interesting point re training of animals and children, although I have done the opposite with regards to training dogs like horses... I acquired a wonderful labrador puppy in February this year. I am a complete novice when it comes to training dogs (although my husband has trained a fair few gun dogs in his time) He initially laughed at my attempts at training said puppy like a horse but has since embraced my new method and will under duress admit I haven't done a bad job. I have found the same principles apply regardless of horse or dog, ask a question, give the animal time to respond and reward correct behaviour. The trick was initially finding what the reward was to start but generally a big cuddle and tickle is all I need for the pup to realise he has done well. He has never been reprimanded as such for bad behaviour but knows from body language when he has done something incorrectly. It's fascinating really and I know some of the local shooting gentlemen will frown upon it but it works for us. We have a happy, willing and understanding 6month pup. Maybe old training methods of both horse and dog did work upon similar ideas, maybe it's just that newer methods are published more and the handler has more access to media and perhaps peer and social pressure actually influences us more than we think.

I think scientists have proved under laboratory conditions (as they do) that the best motivator in dog training is a kind word and gentle caressing, so you are (according to the scientists!) doing everything right! (I use the ear scratch as a powerful motivator to retrieving and it works better than force methods which I have also tried). That reward was compared with treats, electric shocks, application of the stick, etc. In other words, compared with all the traditional inducements and it still came out on top. Sorry, I do not have a reference.

But, talking of old books and old methods, you might enjoy Colonel Hutchinson's "Dog Breaking" who was a colonel in the cavalry. I have a copy of the 10th edition which was published in 1845 (get the more recent edition as it has footnotes on the footnotes which are fun!). This was one of the first books on psychological dog training written by an authority in horsemanship so not far from what we have been talking about. If you've read Peter Moxon's books some hints may not be unfamiliar to you.

I'm afraid my own methods often raise an eyebrow. Like the time some staid very traditional farming neighbours of mine came round the corner of the barn to find me on all fours barking at a puppy! That was actually a piece of serious research as different barks mean different things, but "dog" is not a language that is easily mimicked. (I still get odd looks locally!).

I think the best advice is to watch dogs interacting and follow Nature. Adjustment of the social order is mostly by threat and gesture but I notice my GSD pup (now HUGE!) had a few small scars on his nose presumably from being put in his place by Aunty Foxy. They love each other to bits, but Foxy doesn't take any liberties. The pup is still a pup, regardless of size! So, can it all be done with softness and kindness? Not in my experience. There will come a time when your pup will have to do some things because he MUST! At the moment, you are the most exciting thing in his life but, I fear, it won't last. We don't put steel bits in our horses' mouths because they enjoy it.

 

[fburton]

I think scientists have proved under laboratory conditions (as they do) that the best motivator in dog training is a kind word and gentle caressing, so you are (according to the scientists!) doing everything right! (I use the ear scratch as a powerful motivator to retrieving and it works better than force methods which I have also tried). That reward was compared with treats, electric shocks, application of the stick, etc. In other words, compared with all the traditional inducements and it still came out on top. Sorry, I do not have a reference.

That result is entirely credible to me.

Punishment differs fundamentally from reward because it can only tell an animal what not to do. So if you want to train one specific behaviour amongst a number of possible alternatives, you will spend a lot of time effectively saying "No! Not that. Try again!". In contrast, with rewards you are saying "Yes! That's what I want. Well done!" to the behaviour you want and merely ignoring the behaviours you don't want. Also, it's easier to grade rewards to encourage the animal in the right direction, towards the desired behaviour.

(With horses, a lot of conventional training involves putting pressure on the horse and releasing that pressure when the wanted behaviour is offered. That is not exactly the same as reward - because you have to impose something mildly unpleasant in order to remove it again - but it is probably rather nicer for the horse than repeated punishment!)

 

[livetoride]

If you're hitting a horse in temper then you're serving no purpose.

When I say a 'good hiding' I am not talking about thrashing a horse to an inch of its life. I am talking about two/three good wallops in quick succession, immediately after the horse has misbehaved so it knows what it is being reprimanded for.

Not breaking the skin or terrifying a horse, but more than just giving it a little tap as well.

I come from an age when our relationships with our horses were probably much less fluffy than seems to be the norm these days. Yes, we were always taught that we were a team, but it was made clear that our job was to keep the partnership on track and any disobedience was not to be tolerated. I remember if our ponies misbehaved in lessons and we couldn't control them, our instructor would quite regularly mount the naughty pony and straighten them out with a thrashing, i.e. ride them forwards and if they didn't do what they were asked the whip was used liberally, often leaving welts. We were also expected to correct any refusals in jumping lessons with two or three hard whacks with the whip held upright, as I still usually do to this day. Probably sounds severe to some, but she was a brilliant teacher and her horses were looked after like royalty and by and large seemed very happy.

 

[BSL]

Thanks everyone for your replies, I do read them. My view is that there was a lot of good from the past (but no rose coloured specs here) I did read Black Beauty and saw "Escape From The Dark" aka "The Little Horse Thieves". (watch that youngsters ) I wonder how many horses then, were labelled as dangerous because of undiagnosed kissing spine, bad tack etc. But then I also wonder how many "bad" horses we have today because of lack of exercise and/ or too much feed, which was a basic knowledge of days gone by.

 

[windand rain]

I think today it more a question of too much food and not enough exercise rather than dangerous behaviour. The vast majority of horses today are in very light work but if you asked the owner they would say they were in medium to hard work if they were worked 5 or 6 days a week for an hour with interval training and or jumping involved but actually this is still light work Most horse/pony issues including most metabolic disorders are simply due to lack of work and too much food