Better horsemen in days gone by?

[Urban Horse]

Might that be because what matters more to horses is the emotional impact of an action? If getting bopped on the nose by your wellie causes her no upset, she may have no motivation to avoid it in future. We have all seen horses' apparent obliviousness to some discomfort and even pain in some situations, as well as their extreme reactiveness to other stimuli that are clearly not uncomfortable or painful.

Which just goes to show how finely judged punishment must be - to be effective and to avoid detrimental effects like creating fear, resentment, wariness and/or losing trust.

I think you're right, I've long held the belief that horses are much more concerned with 'intent' than they are with the actual 'impacts' or 'events'. I know that many times in the summer months both mares have recieved sharp and unexpected slaps to the bellies from the palm of my hand as I've attempted to kill or dislodge horse flies from that area... yet the response has been to completely ignore them (though they do like to be shown, and to examine, the fly's corpse if the hunt was sucessful) and carry on grazing or grooming.

Of course, once we start to venture into the undiscovered country of the emotional world of horses, especially if we let the horses themselves become our guide, all manner of wonderful things start to appear.

 

[fburton]

... any disobedience was not to be tolerated.

In those days, what did people assume was the cause of disobedience? Was there due recognition of the fact that what looks like disobedience is sometimes simply that the horse hasn't learned / been taught properly and/or is receiving confusing signals (as may well be true when lesson riders encounter 'naughtiness', at least in some cases)? Or were such thrashings as you describe the standard solution?

 

[ozpoz]

I glad to be reminded of the "horseman's eye". As children, we were always being reminded to pay attention -it was expected that you would learn to see things for yourself, in every sphere of life. I think this attitude is missing now and may be why problems are slow to be picked up on, horses are not quite right but it takes ages for an owner to act. Feeding issues occur because people feed according to weights and written instructions and although they may observe their horse, they don't realise the huge importance of acting on what they see. Too many experts and machines have taken away the confidence in our own ability to do the right thing and act on our crucially important observations.

 

[undergroundoli]

FWIW I think we have a huge emotional investment in an essentially mythical past that kind of coincides with the 50's. I don't trust it.

My grandmother's contribution to the war effort was the sale of her Welsh Mountain type pony, the fantasticly named Tallyho. Gran was driven out to the country to ride Tally at weekends, and had to be led by a gardener on a bike because the pony was so naughty. A classic case of a novice child being given a pony by unhorsey parents and the pony not being worked enough (If anyone has any insights into how the gardener stayed on his bike please share, Gran is v vauge about it). This is also pretty much the plot of 'They Bought Her a Pony,' my favourite pony book, published in 1944.

I was given a lot of my Gran's post war pony books. The horse care ones all slag off the modern way of doing things quickly and hark on about their grandfathers day. The earlier books are unconvinced about the benefits of 'The Forward Seat' and advocate spurs, whips and sitting upright to jump. My Gran firmly believes in solving all problems by deploying a double bridle. A lot of the earlier pony novels feature working horses with poorly kept tack or being worked when lame.

There are far more leisure horses than the were in my granmother's day and while not all of them are kept to the standards I'd wish I'll accept their suffering as the price we pay for greater human affluence. My gran as some heartbreaking stories about poor kids in the 40s and 50's.

Don't forget, the Ancient Greeks worried about the sloppy, rushed ways of 'the youth of today,' its not all bad here in the 21st century.

 

[Fairynuff]

I agree fully with Pearlsasinger. Horses were more carefully watched and tended in days gone by imo. We paid more attention to every little thing in those days, not so much these days I don't think. Owners tend to just turn up and ride. Any problems they call the vet, often for ludicrously inane and trivial reasons. I'm sure, or at least I seriously hope, all is not lost and that there are still some real horsemen around these days. Have to admit, I don't see a lot of these types anymore. People seem to be in such a rush these days; quick fixes required, both medically and training wise. I'm laid back, problems sometimes take time and effort to sort out, and as far as I'm concerned, I have all the time in the world.

excellent reply!

 

[livetoride]

In those days, what did people assume was the cause of disobedience? Was there due recognition of the fact that what looks like disobedience is sometimes simply that the horse hasn't learned / been taught properly and/or is receiving confusing signals (as may well be true when lesson riders encounter 'naughtiness', at least in some cases)? Or were such thrashings as you describe the standard solution?

Well, I would say that instructors then were generally a lot less sympathetic and very little leeway was given for any disobedience. I am sure in many cases the poor pony simply did not know what it was being asked to do. The prevailing attitude was that the horse knows what to do and it's his job to do it. If he won't do it then he must be disciplined. Obviously it varied from instructor to instructor, but I remember many times in class lessons the exercise being halted for a pony to be reprimanded while we all watched on for some perceived naughtiness by being ridden forward by the instructor, dressage whip swishing away, her feet nearly reaching the ground!

 

[fburton]

It makes me wonder about the extent to which riding instruction was organized along military lines, where there would be an emphasis on obeying orders, respect for authority and strict sanctions for disobedience. Does the BHS (formed in 1947) or other amalgamating organizations have roots in the army? I could, of course, be barking up the wrong tree!

 

[Christmas Crumpet]

I was only talking about the difference between when I was a child and now riding horses with my mum the other night.

From about the age of 10 (nearly 30 years ago eek) I would ride for hours every day of the holidays. Literally hours. My best friend and I used to ride bareback either on the same pony or on one each and would disappear at 8 am and not come back till 6 p.m at the earliest in the summer. And our ponies were expected to do that pretty much every day we could go. We would think nothing of riding miles and miles to go somewhere because there was a really cool big fallen down log to jump or a scary ditch. Our ponies never went lame and they were ridden hard!! However, I imagine because they did so much work, they were totally chilled and happy. We expected them to be ok in every situation. In fact, I don't think I ever imagined my pony would be naughty so just carried on doing whatever including riding down the proper main roads bareback every day.

Our ponies were fed a handful of something if they were hunting over the winter, out every day and given proper exercise.

I am totally guilty of not having the time to do that anymore. I have a child and an 8.30 - 5.30 job four days a week. I have to ride quickly for 45 mins in the morning before work in the winter and get up at stupid o clock to go for a good ride in the summer. I do not have the luxury of time!! I wish I did.

I am riding bareback at the moment though and absolutely loving it. I just wish I had the time to jump on my horse and wander off and not have to be back all day. If only I wasn't a grown up and still had school holidays!!!!

 

[BSL]

I was only talking about the difference between when I was a child and now riding horses with my mum the other night.

From about the age of 10 (nearly 30 years ago eek) I would ride for hours every day of the holidays. Literally hours. My best friend and I used to ride bareback either on the same pony or on one each and would disappear at 8 am and not come back till 6 p.m at the earliest in the summer. And our ponies were expected to do that pretty much every day we could go. We would think nothing of riding miles and miles to go somewhere because there was a really cool big fallen down log to jump or a scary ditch. Our ponies never went lame and they were ridden hard!! However, I imagine because they did so much work, they were totally chilled and happy. We expected them to be ok in every situation. In fact, I don't think I ever imagined my pony would be naughty so just carried on doing whatever including riding down the proper main roads bareback every day.

Our ponies were fed a handful of something if they were hunting over the winter, out every day and given proper exercise.

I am totally guilty of not having the time to do that anymore. I have a child and an 8.30 - 5.30 job four days a week. I have to ride quickly for 45 mins in the morning before work in the winter and get up at stupid o clock to go for a good ride in the summer. I do not have the luxury of time!! I wish I did.

I am riding bareback at the moment though and absolutely loving it. I just wish I had the time to jump on my horse and wander off and not have to be back all day. If only I wasn't a grown up and still had school holidays!!!!

Sounds like my childhood, so many more places to ride then as well. Happy memories

 

[amandap]

Sounds like my childhood, so many more places to ride then as well. Happy memories

Mine too. We lived on a farm and could ride anywhere, other farms, moors, forest tracks... bliss! Our home made cross country courses had steams to cross, steep hills, logs to jump etc. not an arena (or adult lol) in sight!

 

[Grumpy Herbert]

I think nowadays people tend to go for the quick fix, rather than properly educating their horse. I know that if you are only interested in one discipline ie hunting, show jumping etc, then the temptation is to concentrate solely on that. But how much better to give your horse a rounded experience of life so that when the time comes that you have to part with them for whatever reason, they have a good chance of finding a good home and a useful life with someone else, even if that's just as a happy hacker. I speak from experience, having taken on a horse that had only ever done one thing til the age of 12 - I still have him 10 years on, but it's been an uphill struggle trying to train him for life as a general riding horse! And I haven't succeeded!!

 

[Dry Rot]

I think nowadays people tend to go for the quick fix, rather than properly educating their horse. I know that if you are only interested in one discipline ie hunting, show jumping etc, then the temptation is to concentrate solely on that. But how much better to give your horse a rounded experience of life so that when the time comes that you have to part with them for whatever reason, they have a good chance of finding a good home and a useful life with someone else, even if that's just as a happy hacker. I speak from experience, having taken on a horse that had only ever done one thing til the age of 12 - I still have him 10 years on, but it's been an uphill struggle trying to train him for life as a general riding horse! And I haven't succeeded!!

There is a lot of sense in that!

Another one for Admin. Can we have a "Like" button please?

 

[Urban Horse]

It makes me wonder about the extent to which riding instruction was organized along military lines, where there would be an emphasis on obeying orders, respect for authority and strict sanctions for disobedience. Does the BHS (formed in 1947) or other amalgamating organizations have roots in the army? I could, of course, be barking up the wrong tree!

No you're essentially correct I believe.... Pony Club games such as tent pegging have their origins in cavalry training.... and the old standard 'You must always mount from the nearside of the horse' comes from carrying a sabre which is always carried on the left side of the body. Mounting on the horse's nearside means therefore, that the sabre doesn't get in the way, nor drag across the horse's back as you mount.

 

[RutlandH2O]

I've found this thread very interesting and thought-provoking. I do not come from a horsey background, but did ride with my Dad every Saturday for many years, at a riding school just outside New York City. We both had lessons and then rode on beautiful bridle paths that are now long gone. Being horse-mad I devoured every horse book, film, figurine available (there was never a question as to what I wanted for birthdays and Christmas). Several summers upstate New York, on a family friend's small farm, where I had my "own" horse for a couple of months, only fuelled my passion. It wasn't until I was 50 that I was able to acquire the first of my horses. My take on the horse practices of the past (and, sadly, the present) has been coloured by my choice of equine partners: Shires, and one Clydesdale. To say that horses in the past had better lives is to don the thickest of rose-coloured glasses! I would suggest that a great number of farmers who had horse-power didn't have a clue as to husbandry and viewed their charges the way one views a tractor: not everyone is a mechanic, that's why owners' manuals exist along side professional repairmen. My introduction into the breeds was fostered by my friend and mentor, an elderly gentleman, whose wide circle of, likewise, elderly farmer friends, informed me with some very antiquated medical practices. Some of the customs of the past were so dangerous that I catalogued them as history, certainly not as useful applications. The attitudes of "that's how my old Dad used to do it," and "we couldn't afford the vet," were repeated with great regularity. I've witnessed blatant cruelty: a six foot 2 x 4 thwacked mercilessly over the croup of a gelding because he wouldn't rein to the right, despite him being blind in his right eye, when I was a child on the farm (I convinced the old man that reining the horse to the left to go right would be just as effective); leaving hooves extremely long and split because farrier costs were considered a luxury; not having mares scanned because "even if they conceive twins, one will be resorbed and the mares will have only one foal;" rubbing petrol into feathered legs to control mites, despite the horse's skin being broken and bleeding; applying high nitrogen to pasture land and wondering why their horses developed laminitis and had to be destroyed; pushing the groceries into pre-yearlings because it's the largest youngsters that place the highest in the line-up, only to see them develop 'blown hocks' (OCD) and being put down; witnessing a Shire stallion, in the ring at the National Show, being repeatedly hit with a length of blue water pipe, by a high-profile, old breeder, in front of the world with not a reprimand from the powers that be. So many of these old boys have been, and are, validated by their contemporaries. In my chosen breed, the past was pretty grim and the present leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Dry Rot]

No you're essentially correct I believe.... Pony Club games such as tent pegging have their origins in cavalry training.... and the old standard 'You must always mount from the nearside of the horse' comes from carrying a sabre which is always carried on the left side of the body. Mounting on the horse's nearside means therefore, that the sabre doesn't get in the way, nor drag across the horse's back as you mount.

…and why the mane is meant to fall on the right (?) side so it does not get tangled up with the handle of the sabre?

 

[Urban Horse]

…and why the mane is meant to fall on the right (?) side so it does not get tangled up with the handle of the sabre?

You might well be right... It was my old History Master (also head of the school riding club) that told us of the military connections, including the tent pegging and reasons for mounting from the nearside. That would have been back in the mid 1960s. He also told us that in WW1, when he was a young cavalryman, his regiment had to paint their horses, their grey coats making too much of a target for the enemy. I always found that a little too far fetched, until years later while reading a book on 'horses in war', his story was confirmed. He also told us that during WW1 some submarines were specially converted to carry horses to Gallipoli, once again whether that was true or not, I really can't say.

 

[Dry Rot]

You might well be right... It was my old History Master (also head of the school riding club) that told us of the military connections, including the tent pegging and reasons for mounting from the nearside. That would have been back in the mid 1960s. He also told us that in WW1, when he was a young cavalryman, his regiment had to paint their horses, their grey coats making too much of a target for the enemy. I always found that a little too far fetched, until years later while reading a book on 'horses in war', his story was confirmed. He also told us that during WW1 some submarines were specially converted to carry horses to Gallipoli, once again whether that was true or not, I really can't say.

I think WWI was pretty horrific for horses…and for those who were in charge of them. Back in the 50's, I used to help out in hunt kennels and one ex-soldier told horrific stories of Yres (or "wipers" as he called it). The worst, he said, was putting gas masks on the horses which had to be pushed down their throats. He had had quite a life, mostly as a hunt servant in peace time, but it had left it's mark and he'd become very bitter.

Whenever I read of horses being frightened by shooting and loud noises today, I remember being told that in cavalry barracks a cannon was fired at midday which was when the horses got their hard feed. So horses looked forward to the sound of a cannon. If they hadn't, there would have been no Charge of the Light Brigade into the face of the Russian guns.

I sold a pony to a lady who lives on a shooting estate. She was worried that the shooting parties might upset the pony. In a couple of weeks, I had my whole herd galloping up the field for hard feed at the sound of a shot! My only regret is missing out on seeing the shooting parties mobbed by a Highland pony!

A lot of things considered ordinary at the time would never have been written about, so what was once considered common knowledge is lost and has to be relearnt. There must be a host of details about horses that have been lost in the last couple of hundred years.

 

[hairycob]

That reminded me - OHs grandad was a farrier before & shod horses at the front in WW1. When he came back he didn't even want to talk about horses & became a general labourer.

 

[windand rain]

Mine too. We lived on a farm and could ride anywhere, other farms, moors, forest tracks... bliss! Our home made cross country courses had steams to cross, steep hills, logs to jump etc. not an arena (or adult lol) in sight!

didn't live on a farm but had miles of forestry commission land to ride and no need for payment then either rode on the beach all day galloping about all year round so personally I still think too much grub and not enough exercise has a huge part to play in the increase in metabolic disorders ,fat animals and behavioural issues