BEVA standing up against use of Bute being allowed in competition hors

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Rouletterose

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BEVA has said it is an 'extremely retrograde step to allow painkillers in horses in competition' , wow, thank goodness our wonderful equine vets in this country are standing up against this ridiculous new ruling, there is a chance by the sound of it that this ruling by the FEI will at this rate get overturned.
THANK GOODNESS.
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There is more politicing going on here than any one of us can possibly imagine - there has to be, why are the BEVA so anti-bute in FEI but have never (as far as I am aware) made any such representation to the BSJA who have allowed horses to compete on low levels of bute for years?

Why are British vets claiming that this is a retograde step and that it will lead to catastrophic injuries in horses when clearly that is not happening in the BSJA and did not happen in BE when it was routine to give a horse a bit of bute after XC day? If it was happening you would have high profile, public, horse breakdowns much more often IMO.

I think rather than the knee-jerk reactions this forum is prone to, people would do better to analyse the information a bit more closely - I wonder what is going on behind the scenes which none of us know about - it will be interesting to see what comes out in the wash!
 
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There is more politicing going on here than any one of us can possibly imagine - there has to be, why are the BEVA so anti-bute in FEI but have never (as far as I am aware) made any such representation to the BSJA who have allowed horses to compete on low levels of bute for years?

Why are British vets claiming that this is a retograde step and that it will lead to catastrophic injuries in horses when clearly that is not happening in the BSJA and did not happen in BE when it was routine to give a horse a bit of bute after XC day? If it was happening you would have high profile, public, horse breakdowns much more often IMO.

I think rather than the knee-jerk reactions this forum is prone to, people would do better to analyse the information a bit more closely - I wonder what is going on behind the scenes which none of us know about - it will be interesting to see what comes out in the wash!

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I would imagine british vets are saying this is a retrograde step because it is. If up until now the only discipline allowed a small amount of bute was show jumping then that was a small area to be tackled. Now.....with the FEI saying ALL disciplines, eventing, dressage, endurance etc etc can use bute and other drugs on their horses, it will be pandemonium accross the globe with a lot of riders using things they shouldn't when they shouldn't and so on and so on. This is indeed a huge step backwards for the horse as has been said by the Welfare of horses group in USA who are adamantly against it.

Why it is allowed in show jumping I don't know, maybe someone else does and could let us know I would be interested, but now saying EVERYONE can do it doesn't make it alright, because show jumpers can do it.
 
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I think rather than the knee-jerk reactions this forum is prone to, people would do better to analyse the information a bit more closely - I wonder what is going on behind the scenes which none of us know about - it will be interesting to see what comes out in the wash!

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If you'd read any of my other posts on the subject you'd see that the VERY reason I have an issue with this new ruling is the fact that it has NOT been presented or discussed, nor were any clear guidelines drawn out prior to the vote. Hardly a "knee jerk reaction", and I'm sorry you feel the need to dismiss my opinion as one simply because yours differs.
 
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I think rather than the knee-jerk reactions this forum is prone to, people would do better to analyse the information a bit more closely - I wonder what is going on behind the scenes which none of us know about - it will be interesting to see what comes out in the wash!

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If you'd read any of my other posts on the subject you'd see that the VERY reason I have an issue with this new ruling is the fact that it has NOT been presented or discussed, nor were any clear guidelines drawn out prior to the vote. Hardly a "knee jerk reaction", and I'm sorry you feel the need to dismiss my opinion as one simply because yours differs.

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Which is very different to the majority of people who are against it on welfare grounds, I am sure you will agree. I am not dismissing anyone's opinion, merely pointing out that there is more to this than meets the eye IMO. I do think that there tends to be a knee-jerk reaction on here when something is presented as 'cruel' without any kind of evidence-base - then people jump on the band wagon about it. I have absolutely no idea why you felt my post was aimed at you in particular, it wasn't.
 
I do not think you are right on this one spotted cat. obviously reaction will be 'knee jerk' because the whole thing was suddenly sprung on an unsuspecting FEI General assembly and the public. But on the other hand there has been lots of informed discussion about the whole clean sport campaign and widespread support for it, so if you consider that, it is indeed a retrograde step.
And as someone above says, just because the BSJA allow it does not make it alright, and as also pointed out, in the equine sporting world, the national rules of one sporting discipline in one country is much easier to tackle than a worldwide allowing.
and how much testing does the BSJA do at national shows to see if this allowance is being abused or not and where are the guidlines for dosage, clearance times and threshold levels published in that respect?
and as i have said before the FEI rule change also allows for isoxuperine, which as far as i am aware is used to treat navicular syndrome. Where on earth is the justification for jumping a horse internationally while on that? Can it be used fr anything else? And surely if you are treating a horse with that drug for that purpose surely if you are using bute in addition it is as a pain reliever not an anti inflamatory?
 
I can't speak for other disciplines, but Ithis ruling is totally inappropriate for endurance - and that isn't a 'knee jerk' reaction.

Unlike other disciplines, riding 160km in one day relies on the rider or the vets being able to pick up tiny issues before the welfare of the horse is compromised. Top level endurance horses love to compete and have unbelievably high pain thresh holds. When their blood is up, that often masks pain. If you add bute, then ask for over five hours of hard riding, you are risking a long term breakdown or death.

Endurance horses aren't going around in a ring for 5 minutes, the vets need to be able to spot the tiny variations that are early warning signs, before they set off on the next long loop.
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I think we do need to look at this properly - the level that is allowed in 1 bute per day. That is not enough to mask a major problem. The anti-inflam properties of bute will make a horse feel more comfortable, not make a broken horse sound. 3 rounds of Olympic jumping, for example, can and does make horses (and their riders!) a little stiff or uncomfortable, but not necessarily lame. Giving an anti-inflam to ease up this up could be looked at as positive horse welfare, rather than negative - which is better, to jump the horse again (it is sound but a tad uncomfortable) with nothing, or allow a small dose of anti-inflam and let him do his job with more comfort. It is food for thought, I know my view isn't popular, but I do not see why there is such huge outrage when we are talking very low levels.
 
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I think we do need to look at this properly - the level that is allowed in 1 bute per day. That is not enough to mask a major problem. The anti-inflam properties of bute will make a horse feel more comfortable, not make a broken horse sound.

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But my point is that, for endurance, masking a minor problem can lead to a subsequent major breakdown. The horse isn't going to be asked to go round a course of jumps. If it is passed sound, it could do up to 40km of hard riding before it is checked again - if it gets that far
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Sorry, I was QRing, should have said that! I can completely see where you are coming from with endurance.

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Thanks for that. I know diddly squat about show jumping, so can't comment on that
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the problem Weezy, is not the amount that is being given but whether it is morally right to administer a painkiller AT ALL to enable a horse to continue to compete and how the FEI are going to monitor it and set the thresholds when horses have varying clearance times and metabolic rates. I just cannot see how anyone can justify using a drug that can absolutely be proven in its effect on the basis that 'a small dose is ok'. is it ok then to use a 'small dose of acp or sedalin' before the dressage to calm a horse down in case it bucks and injures itself? Surely that would also be in the horses best interests? If you use the one dose argument, surely it would apply there as well?
How do you measure a 'small dose' anyway? Are all doses of bute worldwide produced in the same way, to the same standard and dosage rate? Could you be absolutely sure of that?
Quite apart from anything it was abuse of the 'small dose' that got most of these substances banned in the first place. And arabelle, i totally agree with you.
 
I think they have rail roaded this decision through very quickly especially considering the fuss that was made during Beijing over capsaicin in minute quantitys. I think it should have been more openly discussed especially as PH as an interest in the outcome more so that the average person.

Do I think it will make horses break down? No. Do i think its a welfare issue? No. Do I think it will be incredibly difficult to monitor? yes and finally I think it does go against the general direction that the sport has been going in which is to have zero tolerance on any kind of pain relief/stimulant/drug.
 
There is actually plenty of proof that the allowed levels can in fact mask serious injury and make a lame horse appear sound, thus creating more underlying injury. I am in the middle of collecting materials and have been in email contact with a top equine sports and doping vet - I shall be presenting my case as soon as I can!
 
I have to say that before this FEI decision was brought to light, I NEVER knew that BSJA allowed bute! I would never have imagined that. In Sweden (where I spent most of my competing days so far) there is a zero-tolerance level.

I can't find anything about the level of Bute allowed in the BSJA rules though - can anyone enlighten me?
 
Also, we are not talking low levels - the proposed limit is 8mcg/ml - in American horse racing (not known to be the cleanest sport) the limit is 5mcg/ml. Recent studies have shown that phenylbutezone has a therapeutic effect at 5-7mcg/ml.
 
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There is actually plenty of proof that the allowed levels can in fact mask serious injury and make a lame horse appear sound, thus creating more underlying injury. I am in the middle of collecting materials and have been in email contact with a top equine sports and doping vet - I shall be presenting my case as soon as I can!

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Can't wait to see your results Little Flea, BEVA have already said that even the small amounts are 'performance enhancing'.
 
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I have to say that before this FEI decision was brought to light, I NEVER knew that BSJA allowed bute! I would never have imagined that. In Sweden (where I spent most of my competing days so far) there is a zero-tolerance level.

I can't find anything about the level of Bute allowed in the BSJA rules though - can anyone enlighten me?

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I dont no the levels in BSJA sorry.

Sweden is one of the strictest countrys going when it comes to drug residues in general.They tend to just make every thing wait more than 20 days(i think its 28 days).So its no surprise that there strict within the horse world as well

I think they do need to do more work before they alllow bute anywhere but i do see why it should be cosidered.Trace amounts some drugs should be allowed.It can sometimes very difficult to work out the residues and drug absorption and to know when it will be out of the system and out of the urine!

So if you get a horse that pulls of a shoe and is slightly footy or something minor like that a few days before it is due to compete you have to make a choice between leaving the horse in minor discomfort and competing as its likely to be sound by then or in treating the animal to make it more comfortable and losing out on registration fees etc....true some owners will chose to treat and take that loss but there are plenty who wont.

Id be more concerned about people using steroids etc and getting away with it.
 
I think SpottedCat's point was that up until now BEVA has not cared about BSJA allowing Bute. Has anyone ever heard them mention it? Come out against it? Posters on here did not even know that it was allowed.

So why has BEVA decided to create a fuss about the FEI.
 
I thought I had covered that by explaining the implications for the endurance world if the progressive list is allowed to stand? The FEI covers a range of horse sports, many of which currently have a zero tolerance approach to drugs, hence the outrage.
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Yes, and I understand that. But their inconsistency makes me doubt their motives - how hard would it have been for BEVA to articulate that whilst it is ok in SJ it is not in say, endurance (or whatever)? You cannot suddenly get up in arms about something which you have previously not bothered about with such a blanket generalisation as 'it will cause catastrophic breakdowns' without clarifying your reasoning - to do otherwise weakens your argument IMO. (BTW I am using the generic 'you'/'your' etc not aiming that at any one person).

I would also contest the point that endurance puts more strain on a horse than, say, jumping round Badminton and is therefore more likely to lead to horses breaking down if they have one bute 24hrs before the comp starts. I don't think there is any evidence for that is there?
 
I never claimed that endurance puts more strain on a horse than Badminton - my comparison was with showjumping - so I can hardly be expected to produce evidence to support a claim I never made
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Yes but it's not just about Bute is it? Isoxsuprine is used to treat navicular and laminitis, it has side effects too, why would this drug be allowed? it's non-sensical.

Also Weezy above said about 1 Bute per day not masking much, well I'm afraid it does mask a lot, a horse needing 1 Bute per day should not be competed at all, we all have our differing opinions and this is a good debate but for me..it is a slippery slope...and I feel very sad about it, and no I'm definately not a fluffy bunny
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I honestly can't remember who it was, I have no idea why you think I am referring soley to you. Someone made a comment on another thread about how bute given 24hrs before the start of a comp was a real problem for endurance horses because of the distances they do, and that is why it is different from other examples given on the thread, which were of eventers/sjers etc. It used to be commonplace to give an eventer bute after the XC.

Likewise, I also think that a hard days hunting must be at least as stressful as endurance on a horse, especially if there are big fences and deep plough involved and hunt horses have been buted up since the invention of bute - loads of horses hunt on bute, catastrophic breakdown is not terribly common.

I'm not actually asking 'you' or anyone else on here to provide evidence, I'm saying that it seems pretty far-fetched to say the problem is only in things like endurance (given that it can't be in SJ or BEVA would have lobbied for a change when BSJA first started allowing bute) when other disciplines in which bute is commonplace such as hunting must be at least as stressful on the horse as endurance, and they don't have a high rate of catastrophic breakdown.

All I am trying to do is point out why I think there is more to this than simply 'horse welfare/cruelty' issues which the BEVA are marching under the banner of - if that were true then why do their members routinely prescribe bute to people to allow them to hunt for example?
 
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Yes but it's not just about Bute is it? Isoxsuprine is used to treat navicular and laminitis, it has side effects too, why would this drug be allowed? it's non-sensical.

Also Weezy above said about 1 Bute per day not masking much, well I'm afraid it does mask a lot, a horse needing 1 Bute per day should not be competed at all, we all have our differing opinions and this is a good debate but for me..it is a slippery slope...and I feel very sad about it, and no I'm definately not a fluffy bunny
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Yes, it is just about bute. Well the title of the thread is 'BEVA standing up against use of Bute being allowed in competition horses' at any rate. Hence the discussion being about bute and not any of the other substances on the progressive list
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ETA: And a horse needing 1 bute per day could not be competed under these rules which quite clearly state that they cannot be given anything during the competition or the 24hrs preceeding the start of the competition/entering into stables for the comp etc.
 
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