be positive
Well-Known Member
Mine never go that long either and I would not expect a professional yard to leave them so long. A late night check is the minimum I would expect, mine get a feed and I often skip out too.
Beware all liveries - horse killed while in livery
- Thread starter If only
- Start date
Mine never go that long either and I would not expect a professional yard to leave them so long. A late night check is the minimum I would expect, mine get a feed and I often skip out too.
dogcalleddill
Well-Known Member
OP, I'm terribly sorry for your loss, and also that you feel justice has not been done.
However, with all due respect, I feel that the title of the thread is a little over the top. There is risk with any horse in any situation, presumably you assessed this risk and level of care before you placed your horse at this yard. Was a specific service level not met?
I'm sorry, I hope I don't sound uncaring, but as tragic and traumatic as it is, I think accidents happen, it's inevitable.
However, with all due respect, I feel that the title of the thread is a little over the top. There is risk with any horse in any situation, presumably you assessed this risk and level of care before you placed your horse at this yard. Was a specific service level not met?
I'm sorry, I hope I don't sound uncaring, but as tragic and traumatic as it is, I think accidents happen, it's inevitable.
lannerch
Well-Known Member
I too do not think a livery leaving the horses for 14 hours is unreasonable my horse goes unchecked sometimes for this period of time and he is certainly not neglected.
Unfortunately horses are animals and accidents happen so frankly not surprised the court case was lost.
I also dislike in general not particularly a pop at op this blame culture where in every accident some has to be accountable!
What a sad tale though and op sorry for your loss
Unfortunately horses are animals and accidents happen so frankly not surprised the court case was lost.
I also dislike in general not particularly a pop at op this blame culture where in every accident some has to be accountable!
What a sad tale though and op sorry for your loss
DipseyDeb
Well-Known Member
No not at all,it's very well run, the YO is lovely and the horses are her top priority, we're very lucky.
Fiagai
Well-Known Member
PeterNatt
Well-Known Member
I am very sorry to hear of the tragic loss of your horse and that the court case went against you. In my mind this was a professional yard and they should have had a duty of care towards your horse especially as they where aware of the inadequacy of their stable doors.
I would suggest that the stable company concerned need to modify their design so that horses can not let themselves out. I would also suggest that they should produce a modification kit for all their current instalations so that existing users of their stables will not face a similar tragedy.
I would suggest that the stable company concerned need to modify their design so that horses can not let themselves out. I would also suggest that they should produce a modification kit for all their current instalations so that existing users of their stables will not face a similar tragedy.
charlie76
Well-Known Member
It was an accident. Horrid for you of course but accidents happen. We have post and rail round our fields. We have always had a taught strand of barbed wire on the top rail to stop chewing ans stop them leaning over. One person complained about a ripped rug so we took it off. Anotger horse then leant over it, snapped the rail and some how managed to get the broken rail in the rug strap, it panicked, galloped off and impaled itself in the stomach ripping a huge whole and all her insides came out, it was awful but it was an accident. Post and rail are supposed to be the safest! Unless you could prove the door was not shut properly I don't think you can blame anyone.
I also don't think 14hrs left is neglect. If they have ad lib hay and water they will be fine. Also, how do you know he didn't get out half an hour before anyone arrived in the morning. No one can watch the 24/7
I also don't think 14hrs left is neglect. If they have ad lib hay and water they will be fine. Also, how do you know he didn't get out half an hour before anyone arrived in the morning. No one can watch the 24/7
lannerch
Well-Known Member
I am sure the yard did have a duty of care however I also expect in this case the court found them not to have breached it hence they were found not accountable
Mike007
Well-Known Member
Good grief,who presented this case and in what court. I would have pointed out to the judge that since "no fault" liability exists against owner or keeper, there was not mearly a normal duty of care , but an exceptionaly high level of supervision and care would be required. Door bolts that have been shown to be defective, When and by whom were they maintained? I find it hard to believe that any good barrister could have lost such a case in the high court.
Dolcé
Well-Known Member
This, first thing that came to mind as I read it!
Mithras
Well-Known Member
Another strange first instance decision reported on HHO. Some first instance, lower court decisions can be odd, and not always contain the most advanced legal reasoning ie they can be dependent on the judge's own personal opinions and knowledge (or lack thereof) than legal reasoning. Not always, but it does happen.
In the brief circumstances narrated, in the absence of any novus actus interveniens or undisclosed defences, I would have expected a breach of duty of care on the part of the YO, or liability under Occupiers Liability. I wonder if the first instance judge confused the issue of negligence with the statutory concept of strict liability under the Animals Act, and whether a higher court judgement is needed to clarify the difference when someone is making a claim as opposed to being claimed against.
In the brief circumstances narrated, in the absence of any novus actus interveniens or undisclosed defences, I would have expected a breach of duty of care on the part of the YO, or liability under Occupiers Liability. I wonder if the first instance judge confused the issue of negligence with the statutory concept of strict liability under the Animals Act, and whether a higher court judgement is needed to clarify the difference when someone is making a claim as opposed to being claimed against.
orionstar
Well-Known Member
My horse once let itself out of it's stable when on livery in the middle of the night, went on a wander ate some food he shouldnt have, dunked it's nose in a bucket of tractor oil and covered all the other liveries in it etc. I left at 5.30pm that night and wouldnt see him again until 8am (14.5 hrs later). He could have quite easily trotted down the lane through the street and been run over by a car on the main road, so after that I put a snap hook on his door bolt, but I couldnt blame the YO for it as he wasnt to know that the horse could escape from the stable (and neither did I).
Mince Pie
Well-Known Member
I'm surprised they do at all, unless Monarch have a different range of door 'catches'
My yard has Monarch stables and I've always said that if anything gets out whomever owns it should sell it to the circus! I only use my kickbolts out of habit overnight and I doubt I need them.
Wagtail
Horse servant
I have a sliding door, concerned now, don't want to find my boy ambling about in the rapeseed in the morning
I tie a flash strap around to secure the doors of those that are prone to opening them.
tinap
Well-Known Member
So sorry to hear about your horse
Mine also escaped from monarch stables while at pc camp. He managed to open his stable door, then left through the barn doors which were open, jumped a gate & went to find some of the others that had gone on the xc course.
I always make sure the door is tied up with something extra now.
Mine also escaped from monarch stables while at pc camp. He managed to open his stable door, then left through the barn doors which were open, jumped a gate & went to find some of the others that had gone on the xc course.
I always make sure the door is tied up with something extra now.
cornbrodolly
Well-Known Member
perhaps this shpould give us all pause for thought before heading off to court for a cash windfall. Money can never bring a horse back , but why anyone would pursue the livery yard owners is beyond me. The horse got out - like many other horses and animals . Just a tragic ending - but a court case- ridiculous!
luckyoldme
Well-Known Member
novus actus interveniens, of course why didn t i think of that.!
Equilibrium Ireland
Well-Known Member
I don't take people to court because I blame myself for most anything that happens so I don't see the point. Hence my experience. Had my mare been hurt I would have fully blamed myself for leaving her there. Having heard other horror stories surrounding the same guy after she was home, glad I did. Worst part about it, I asked so many people about said person before I sent my mare there and all glowing reports.
Terri
Terri
scarymare
Well-Known Member
Very sorry for your loss OP dreadful.
I'm staggared your solicitor went to court. I think I had a much more cut and dried case than yours but was advised that the costs of taking either the vet (who missed the jugular vein with an injection) and schooling livery yard (who kept horse in neck rug and didn't notice for 10 days that whole neck necrotic) were unlikely to be met by any settlement. My horse did recover and had he died I would have probably wanted 'my day in court' as well but I think that's when legal advice should be realistic. Treatment costs were ironically picked up by the drug company who were the least to blame.
Must admit though it's really scared me about livery. I put my gelding to livery to get an indoor school this winter and did late checks myself every day.
I'm staggared your solicitor went to court. I think I had a much more cut and dried case than yours but was advised that the costs of taking either the vet (who missed the jugular vein with an injection) and schooling livery yard (who kept horse in neck rug and didn't notice for 10 days that whole neck necrotic) were unlikely to be met by any settlement. My horse did recover and had he died I would have probably wanted 'my day in court' as well but I think that's when legal advice should be realistic. Treatment costs were ironically picked up by the drug company who were the least to blame.
Must admit though it's really scared me about livery. I put my gelding to livery to get an indoor school this winter and did late checks myself every day.
BBH
Well-Known Member
I find the whole story very improbable to be honest. Not only does the poor horse release himself from his stable, the barn doors are left open to help him on his way and on his travels where not a soul hears him he manages to find possibly the only open ' latch' on which to impale himself.
It was a showjumping yard. Are you quite sure he won't reappear on the continent having being sold for a nice tidy sum.
Can you tell I don't have a very high opinion of prof SJers.
It was a showjumping yard. Are you quite sure he won't reappear on the continent having being sold for a nice tidy sum.
Can you tell I don't have a very high opinion of prof SJers.
Marydoll
Well-Known Member
I disagree, and claiming for your horse losing its life is hardly a cash windfall, its a bloody tragedy.
They proprieters had a duty of care, the horse got out, then not being contained wandered off and was gravely injured,But not to found due to poor supervision having been left for 14 hours without a check, Thats utterly disgreaceful in my opinion
xxMozlarxx
Well-Known Member
My god...the yard didn't take the rug off for 10 days? Where were you?
Solicitors advice does surprise me, even in small claims you can apply for costs.
Equilibrium Ireland
Well-Known Member
BBH,
Totally agree. I have the same opinion now. Not only from my experience but for seeing what passes as quality care.
Thing about it is my life was spent in racing in which everyone loves to rake over the coals for being inhumane. My quality of care standards are higher than most people in this country because if the way I have watched horses treated over the years. Barns that all had night watchmen and day watchmen when the other employees went home. So yeah to me leaving horses unseen for 14 hours is like, whoa! And believe me that does not mean I think other people are useless, just not what I'm used to.
I did however work part time for an International jumper rider in the States who did his horses beautifully. He was a super horseman and the horses were treated top notch. And yes a night man as well. The gap between those guy and the average guy is huge. And they needn't complain about having money to be able to properly care for horses. I get by spending very little but they have the best of everything. If you wouldn't get down and sleep in a bed for your horse, don't ask them too! Always remember that from one racehorse trainer! And keeping an eye on horses at odd times costs nothing. If you run a livery yard, that should be a given.
Terri
Totally agree. I have the same opinion now. Not only from my experience but for seeing what passes as quality care.
Thing about it is my life was spent in racing in which everyone loves to rake over the coals for being inhumane. My quality of care standards are higher than most people in this country because if the way I have watched horses treated over the years. Barns that all had night watchmen and day watchmen when the other employees went home. So yeah to me leaving horses unseen for 14 hours is like, whoa! And believe me that does not mean I think other people are useless, just not what I'm used to.
I did however work part time for an International jumper rider in the States who did his horses beautifully. He was a super horseman and the horses were treated top notch. And yes a night man as well. The gap between those guy and the average guy is huge. And they needn't complain about having money to be able to properly care for horses. I get by spending very little but they have the best of everything. If you wouldn't get down and sleep in a bed for your horse, don't ask them too! Always remember that from one racehorse trainer! And keeping an eye on horses at odd times costs nothing. If you run a livery yard, that should be a given.
Terri
Wagtail
Horse servant
Personally, I would never leave my horse on a livery yard where the owners do not live on site. I check all horses when I hay them up at 10 pm and am back out again at 7 am in the morning. If people are paying for full livery, then I think this is the least I can do. Also, I am a very light sleeper and if I hear any strange banging or noises in the night then I get up and go and investigate. Only the other morning I found the cob out of his monach stable and in the walkway of the stableblock, having pulled down every horses rugs from all the racks. Luckily, neither he nor the rugs were damaged, but he now has a flash strap tied around his door as extra security.
It is not just Monach stables that horses escape from. My mare has a normal stable door and can open the bolt to her stable in seconds. On the rare occasion when I have forgotten the kick bolt, she is out and staight into the feedroom. Not good for a laminitic! So she now has a snap hook on her door.
It is not just Monach stables that horses escape from. My mare has a normal stable door and can open the bolt to her stable in seconds. On the rare occasion when I have forgotten the kick bolt, she is out and staight into the feedroom. Not good for a laminitic! So she now has a snap hook on her door.
Wagtail
Horse servant
My god...the yard didn't take the rug off for 10 days? Where were you?
Solicitors advice does surprise me, even in small claims you can apply for costs.
One of my clients was recovering from a knee operation and had her mare on full livery at a show jumping yard. It was winter and she would visit the horse several times a week to give her some fuss and some carrots. Once her knee was better, she removed the mare's rugs, to find her totally emaciated underneath! She had been starved by the yard, and due to having rugs on, my client did not notice! Years later, and at my yard, we discovered the mare now suffers from recurrent gastric ulcers, caused by the time that she was starved. How any yard can do this and not feel any remorse, is beyond me.
BBH
Well-Known Member
There are so many areas of negligence or due care here.
Firstly no preventative action was taken to secure the stable latch.
The barn doors left open so no confinement if horses do escape.
No regular checks - and yes IMO 14 hrs is too long.
' Hazzards' ie open latches and yard is not made safe.
Worst of all irrespective of legal requirements is the same old story of no responsibility taken, no empathy shown. The only thing a SJer will take is your money.
I would be devastated if a horse at my yard died and would do everything I could to help the owners get through it.
Firstly no preventative action was taken to secure the stable latch.
The barn doors left open so no confinement if horses do escape.
No regular checks - and yes IMO 14 hrs is too long.
' Hazzards' ie open latches and yard is not made safe.
Worst of all irrespective of legal requirements is the same old story of no responsibility taken, no empathy shown. The only thing a SJer will take is your money.
I would be devastated if a horse at my yard died and would do everything I could to help the owners get through it.
Hedwards
Well-Known Member
OP - very sorry to read about your horse, however, I do believe this was a sequence of very unfortunate events, and pure accident, horses do get out of their stables, both my old retired mare and my loan boy have managed to get out of theirs in the past 6 months (preventative measures now taken). I was a little suprised that a full livery yard would leave horses for 14+ hours... If a horse is on DIY and the owner leaves at 5pm and doesnt get back down to their horse until 8am thats their choice - on full livery I'd expect at least one late night check at say 9-10ish and a start of at least 7am... however, that had that been done, is doesnt mean the accident wouldnt have happened
Baggybreeches
Well-Known Member
It's not really expensive or complicated, I have a similar system at home (OH likes gadgety things!) I think the whole lot including the processor for the cameras cost less than £800.
Obviously my OH installed it himself but I would think it is a reasonable cost and should be a saving on insurance premiums etc in the long term.
To the OP, I am very sorry this has happened but that's horses, they will do their damnedest to injure themselves regardless of how safe you make their environment.
La Fiaba
Well-Known Member
OP I'm very sorry to hear what happened to your horse, what a terrible tragedy
I have to say I'm surpised at the ruling - does that mean if your horse had killed a person while it had escaped ad not himself, that YOU would have been held responsible and not the YO? Or would nobody have been responsible and it just be labled 'an accident'?
I have to say I'm surpised at the ruling - does that mean if your horse had killed a person while it had escaped ad not himself, that YOU would have been held responsible and not the YO? Or would nobody have been responsible and it just be labled 'an accident'?
1Anastasia
Well-Known Member
I'm truely very sorry for your loss and can very much understand why you are so upset about the whole situation but yes my mare can also undo Monarch type sliding stable doors only she doesn't rub to do it she just grabs the pull bar with her teeth, pulls and lets herself out so maybe your horse learned to do the same? She worked out how to do that on the first day of a 3 day camp at Plumpton College so no real challenge for a reasonably intelligent horse (I would put money on most native ponies learning that trick very quickly!). No harm done in her case and the door was just tied with a leadrope with a quick release knot after that. The barn doors were left open over night but it was mid summer and the horses would frankly have cooked had they been closed and most vets would advise again them being closed all year round due to the rapid spread of disease in such a poorly ventilated environment particularly in somewhere like a showjumping yard where horses are potentially traveliing all over the place and could bring back a virus.
My mare is on a very small full livery yard but the owners do not live on site (although the totally unhorsy owners of the house from whom the land is rented do) so 14 hours unchecked if you think about it is actually perfectly possible if the horse is finished off and checked at 5.30pm and then not seen again until 7.30am the following morning and there must be plenty of people like myself until I moved yards who work full time, have kids, husbands to cook for and dogs to walk who will be doing their horse at that sort of time or even earlier in the dark winter months and then not being back at the yard until said kids are up and dressed for school the following morning. Yes in this case it was a professional, full livery yard and you may have expected them to have been there longer and checked horses more often but what I'm trying to say is that it's not unusual in reality for horses to go that long unchecked. It is very sad that this accident happened but no I don't think the owners of the yard can be blamed for it. It was purely a freak accident and in law as I understand it, regardless of how a horse gets out or where it is, it is the owners responsibility if a horse gets loose and then causes damage either to itself or other peoples property so not surprising that the case didn't go in your favour. There has been at least one high profile case where thieves have cut fences and let horses out and the horse owner has then been prosecuted successfully for the damage to the car and injury to the passengers of the car that hit the loose horse even though the horse was also killed in the accident and the owners had made sure their fencing was adequate and the breach was purposedly caused by a third party. As others have said, I am surprised that your solicitor advised you to go to court as following the current legislation the yard owners would have more chance of success sueing you for any damage your horse did to their gate than you would have done sueing them. I'm not saying that it's right but that is the way it stands.
My mare is on a very small full livery yard but the owners do not live on site (although the totally unhorsy owners of the house from whom the land is rented do) so 14 hours unchecked if you think about it is actually perfectly possible if the horse is finished off and checked at 5.30pm and then not seen again until 7.30am the following morning and there must be plenty of people like myself until I moved yards who work full time, have kids, husbands to cook for and dogs to walk who will be doing their horse at that sort of time or even earlier in the dark winter months and then not being back at the yard until said kids are up and dressed for school the following morning. Yes in this case it was a professional, full livery yard and you may have expected them to have been there longer and checked horses more often but what I'm trying to say is that it's not unusual in reality for horses to go that long unchecked. It is very sad that this accident happened but no I don't think the owners of the yard can be blamed for it. It was purely a freak accident and in law as I understand it, regardless of how a horse gets out or where it is, it is the owners responsibility if a horse gets loose and then causes damage either to itself or other peoples property so not surprising that the case didn't go in your favour. There has been at least one high profile case where thieves have cut fences and let horses out and the horse owner has then been prosecuted successfully for the damage to the car and injury to the passengers of the car that hit the loose horse even though the horse was also killed in the accident and the owners had made sure their fencing was adequate and the breach was purposedly caused by a third party. As others have said, I am surprised that your solicitor advised you to go to court as following the current legislation the yard owners would have more chance of success sueing you for any damage your horse did to their gate than you would have done sueing them. I'm not saying that it's right but that is the way it stands.