Beyond belief....

[Luci07]

Racism and intolerance cut both ways . . . and failure to forget that, and failure to take that into account in dealing with those who are racist and/or intolerant negates the initial principle.

Just read that back and hope it makes sense .

P

It does. It is a point I try to make frequently in that we have a society and rules and cannot afford to regress to lower behaviour against those who choose to break our rules.

I have enjoyed reading this topic. There is great deal of food for thought but we should also bear in mind, that there is vast and bloody history of persecution and differences. Sometimes the differences were named as religious, sometimes not but this is nothing new. The debate should be firmly aimed at questioning as to whether this threat is real and different to what has gone on before. We murdered jews in the 11th century (York), we created the concentration camps for the Boer war, back in the times of early medieval england, English was only spoken by the lower classes. We had Fascists openly gaining power before the 2nd world war..just trying to show that our history has always been turbulent. Do we think this is any different?

 

[EAST KENT]

While we are looking at the history of this, let's not forget how the British Empire operated. Any one know that India was governed by a private company, organised by the British Government? When the Victorians went to colonise places, they showed scant regard for the social and religeous norms of those places. Perhaps this is a case of you reap what you sow?

Exactly,we lived separately and just carried on being English as far as we possibly could,now we criticise others for doing exactly the same!

 

[HashRouge]

Let's not forget that extremism can be found everywhere - it isn't exclusive to Islam. The EDL, for instance, is just as bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PyWJiSQoOQ

 

[DabDab]

Our ancestors in this country fought really hard for women's rights, freedom of speech, democracy.... and it is really hard to watch anyone from any walk of life being so disrespectful of that. The EDL can be as bad as these nutters in this respect.

 

[1stclassalan]

It does. It is a point I try to make frequently in that we have a society and rules and cannot afford to regress to lower behaviour against those who choose to break our rules.

I have enjoyed reading this topic. There is great deal of food for thought but we should also bear in mind, that there is vast and bloody history of persecution and differences. Sometimes the differences were named as religious, sometimes not but this is nothing new. The debate should be firmly aimed at questioning as to whether this threat is real and different to what has gone on before. We murdered jews in the 11th century (York), we created the concentration camps for the Boer war, back in the times of early medieval england, English was only spoken by the lower classes. We had Fascists openly gaining power before the 2nd world war..just trying to show that our history has always been turbulent. Do we think this is any different?

Very true and PolarSky has some good points too. I think the thing I'm mainly advocating is - I don't want an extremist to turn me into an extremist! Even if that's what they seem to want - in fact that will make me even more dead against it.

Hopefully, the new communications - the Net and social media will help spread the word that people are mostly all the same rather than exaggerating their differences - unfortunately that message is mixed in with an explosion of pornography and extremist rantings of all descriptions. We live in interesting times.

 

[Vindaloo]

I don't know if this really did come from the Australian Prime minister but if it did, I applaud her.

Quote: ‘IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT… Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.’

‘This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.’

‘We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!’

‘Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.’

‘We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.’

‘This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, ‘THE RIGHT TO LEAVE’.’

‘If you aren’t happy here then LEAVE. We didn’t force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.’

Pity our own PM doesn't appear to be able to do the same.

V.

 

[fburton]

Well, it is one point of view.

The RANDOM capitalization of WORDS in the QUOTE rang alarm bells with me (it is a thought to be sign that someone is becoming mentally unhinged). So I thought I would track it down, and found this:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/likeitorleaveit.asp

Apparently the quote was barstewardized from something Barry Loudermilk, Republican member of the Georgia State Senate, had published in his local Georgia rag, adapted to make it look like it was about Australia and falsely attributed to PMs Julia Gillard (also to Kevin Rudd and John Howard). Loudermilk is also anti-abortion and against gun control, as you'd expect.

See also:
http://www.hoax-slayer.com/howard-muslim-speech.shtml

Basically it is a fiction.

 

[LittleMonster]

I havent read the whole thread because the whole thing gets me to the bone...
Extremists need to be dealt with. Like people have said its not the religion its the people that take it the few steps to far! And did anyone hear the bloke that attacked the solider in Woolwhich had actually been in court for something before in a different country?
OR that they were both known to police but nothing was done to persue and sort them out (now i personally think there is more to their mental state then is mentioned).

the first video made my blood boil! Do they realise the BRITISH police protect them in BRITIAN!?! And the bloke at the end basically saying they don't follow rules of people in a different religon? I would like to ask him, if he feels like that why doesn't he go and live in a ''islamic land'' run by a muslim?
Maybe he will be happier?

Don't like it? Shut up and get on with it or leave... Simple?!

 

[Aarrghimpossiblepony]

Very true and PolarSky has some good points too. I think the thing I'm mainly advocating is - I don't want an extremist to turn me into an extremist! Even if that's what they seem to want - in fact that will make me even more dead against it.

Hopefully, the new communications - the Net and social media will help spread the word that people are mostly all the same rather than exaggerating their differences - unfortunately that message is mixed in with an explosion of pornography and extremist rantings of all descriptions. We live in interesting times.

BIB
I think these sentences show how far things have gone wrong in this country.

It's not extremist to be angry that millions of people have emigrated to the UK and seek to turn the country into what they came from.
The same can be said about every progressive European country.

Whilst at the same time ensuring that no changes are allowed back in the "home country".

It maybe alarmist, but slowly and surely Europeans are losing their homelands.
Where do they go to feel at home in the same way an immigrant here can return to Pakistan, Somalia, Iraq, ect.?

Islam won't change because it can't. The resistance to any form of reformation is inbuilt. In fact over the last twenty years there has been a massive revival of fundamentalism and a rejection of a more progressive outlook. The so called "Arab spring" has resulted in hardline religious control taking over in every country.
Look at what is currently happening in Turkey.

And it's feeding into this country and Europe. It's not about groups of people moving here and over a period of time assimilating/integrating because they feel cut off from the "old country", open to the country they now reside in. With modern travel, that is no longer going to happen.
In fact, the opposite is true.
People return to the "old country" to find marriage partners because those around them from their own communities are too "westernised".

So what hope is there?

 

[fburton]

It's not extremist to be angry that millions of people have emigrated to the UK and seek to turn the country into what they came from.

How many million Muslims have immigrated into the UK, and how many of those seek to turn the country into what they came from?

If the figures are not as you suppose, your anger may be misplaced.

 

[Caol Ila]

Too many bloody immigrants....! Oh, wait...

 

[YorksG]

In the 1910's my grandfather and his family came to England from Eire (then simply Ireland) His mother insisted that the family attend the Methodist chapel, as she did not want anyone to think they may be catholic, my Gradfather contiued this with his own children. In the 1960's there were signs up in boarding houses saying No Irish, No Blacks No dogs. The only thing that changes is the place the people we don't want, come from.

 

[hackneylass2]

Vindaloo, I think that what you quoted should be every country's stance.

As for the 'no Irish, no blacks, no dogs' signs in the 60s, which was disgusting, we still have the same sort of discrimination...what about all the 'No DSS' statements on property rental sites? No difference imo.

 

[1stclassalan]

Although I appreciate there is a vast difference in the speed of change between these days and history - If you threw out all the immigrants from Great Britain - the place would be empty!!

I doubt if anyone actually lived here during the last Ice Age as most folk alive in the area were nomadic and followed the herds of wild animals. When the ice melted the sea rose 150 metres - now that is what I call Global Warming!!! ( BTW humans didn't do it - so somethin else did. )

From then on, folk who wanted to come here had to have considerable tenacity, the skill to build a boat - or be running away from someone who couldn't! This island has been the final frontier right up until people learned to build even bigger boats - but it also had the effect of concentrating the best brains and the get-up-and-goers.

If a guy has walked all the way here from .... say, Afghanistan - even he arrives with nothing - I'm inclined to look on him rather more kindly than some habitual DHSS claimant who's sat on their backside for years - even if he was born here.

 

[hackneylass2]

Being a male I doubt you pay much attention to the many Muslim women who are being oppressed and are living in fear...here in the UK. Those for whom Sharia 'courts' completely disregard UK law and submit them to severe and unfair standards of both behaviour and standing.

Also, not all DHSS claimants are lazy workshy asses; ...redundancy in this economic climate can strike anyone anytime, and if you cant pay your mortgage., don't expect the banks to sympathise much! Financial discrimination is just as bad as racial discrimination.

As has been said before here, 'If in Rome...' as a woman, I would not expect to have a life at all if I lived in Saudi, therefore I would not choose to live there. If I did, I would expect to conform and obey the laws of the country.

 

[Aarrghimpossiblepony]

Although I appreciate there is a vast difference in the speed of change between these days and history - If you threw out all the immigrants from Great Britain - the place would be empty!!

I doubt if anyone actually lived here during the last Ice Age as most folk alive in the area were nomadic and followed the herds of wild animals. When the ice melted the sea rose 150 metres - now that is what I call Global Warming!!! ( BTW humans didn't do it - so somethin else did. )

From then on, folk who wanted to come here had to have considerable tenacity, the skill to build a boat - or be running away from someone who couldn't! This island has been the final frontier right up until people learned to build even bigger boats - but it also had the effect of concentrating the best brains and the get-up-and-goers.

If a guy has walked all the way here from .... say, Afghanistan - even he arrives with nothing - I'm inclined to look on him rather more kindly than some habitual DHSS claimant who's sat on their backside for years - even if he was born here.

The British Isles have been continuously inhabited for the last approx, 14,500 years. Settlers first came towards the end of the last Ice Age when there was still a land bridge connecting to mainland Europe.

Recent DNA studies have shown that 80% of most Britons' DNA comes from these first settlers.

So why would it be empty?

Subsequent historical waves of immigration have been relatively minor in affecting the population.

When the land bridge disappeared because of rising sea levels, it preserved an isolated population. As you will probably find in many islands where geographical conditions changed after people had first settled. And I daresay there are some where the isolated populations didn't survive.

 

[Alec Swan]

Being a male I doubt you pay much attention to the many Muslim women who are being oppressed and are living in fear...here in the UK........

Whether that remark was aimed at the poster before you, or men in general, I suspect that you may be wrong. I don't know of any men, on this forum or beyond, who don't feel for the oppressed, whoever they are.

There can be no place for those aspects of Sharia Law, which are at odds with our own Laws, none what so ever. We can only have one legal system prevail in the UK. If Sharia Law works for those who live in Afghanistan, that's fine by me. When in Rome.......

Alec.

 

[Alyth]

I do wish there were a like button!! Well said (again!) Alec!!

 

[1stclassalan]

The British Isles have been continuously inhabited for the last approx, 14,500 years. Settlers first came towards the end of the last Ice Age when there was still a land bridge connecting to mainland Europe.

Yes, and no! If you look at what I've said previously, I reckon that those folk who travelled here were nomadic during the Ice Ages ( and before ) - farming hadn't been invented so there was nothing to keep anybody rooted to one spot - they were hunter gatherers.

Recent DNA studies have shown that 80% of most Britons' DNA comes from these first settlers.

As there is no surviving Ice Age population I find that difficult to believe.

Subsequent historical waves of immigration have been relatively minor in affecting the population.

What, apart from the Anglo-Saxons, Danes and then the Normans changing everything you mean?

When the land bridge disappeared because of rising sea levels, it preserved an isolated population.

This famous land bridge had a flippig great river through the middle of it even when sea levels were at their lowest - the people had boats.

When the sea level rose - it did it fairly slowly so small boats were quite good enough for early peoples to keep the nomadic lifestyle - until the climate improved enough for farming.

 

[1stclassalan]

Being a male I doubt you pay much attention to the many Muslim women who are being oppressed and are living in fear...here in the UK. Those for whom Sharia 'courts' completely disregard UK law and submit them to severe and unfair standards of both behaviour and standing.

Well that's a bit of a far reaching blandishment for someone who posts upon fairness and equality! There are many non-Muslim women living in fear in the U.K. - I feel for all of them.

However; to the case in point - there are several hundred hijab wearing women featured in the video professing to like it. I rather feel that you have your opinions formed by the Daily Mail - particularly on Sharia Law. It is not the law that's at fault in reported extreme cases but the interpretation by evil people - and you can get them in all walks of life.

Also, not all DHSS claimants are lazy workshy asses; ...... Financial discrimination is just as bad as racial discrimination.

Feel better now? Go back and read what I wrote again please - I do not tar all DHSS claimants with the same brush ( unlike you and your comment about men) - I make the case of rhetorical claimant who has not worked in years - I suppose, I should have added "willfully" for nitpickers but I did rather think it was obvious what I meant and I have been critisized on here for patronising.

As has been said before here, 'If in Rome...' as a woman, I would not expect to have a life at all if I lived in Saudi, therefore I would not choose to live there. If I did, I would expect to conform and obey the laws of the country.

Commendable, I'm sure but it's not a like for like scenario. The Muslims in the video are complaining because they feel they are being treated differently - in our supposed free country - ( I rather think that they are right ) there is no reciprocal to compare in Saudi. Immigrants are completely absorbed or not allowed in and different foreigners are kept completely isolated in compounds.

 

[Aarrghimpossiblepony]

Yes, and no! If you look at what I've said previously, I reckon that those folk who travelled here were nomadic during the Ice Ages ( and before ) - farming hadn't been invented so there was nothing to keep anybody rooted to one spot - they were hunter gatherers.

As there is no surviving Ice Age population I find that difficult to believe.

What, apart from the Anglo-Saxons, Danes and then the Normans changing everything you mean?

This famous land bridge had a flippig great river through the middle of it even when sea levels were at their lowest - the people had boats.

When the sea level rose - it did it fairly slowly so small boats were quite good enough for early peoples to keep the nomadic lifestyle - until the climate improved enough for farming.

Hunter gatherers roam no further than they need to collect enough food. Britain has never had a continental climate that would have caused extremely large herds to travel hundreds of miles to obtain grazing/water.

There's plenty of reasons to stay rooted in an area, not least because the dangers have already been identified and the local food/shelter/tool supplies are known.

http://www.york.ac.uk/50/impact/star-carr-house/

There are dated remains dug up that can provide DNA using the latest techniques.

Whether a ruling, conquering elite changed everything, that has no bearing on the numbers. All the recent studies have been busily downgrading the amount of immigration (people) connected to any of the invasions you mention.

Climate has no bearing on the spread of farming, it's a technological advance that spread from it's source in the ME.

 

[Pale Rider]

Modern immigration to the UK is mostly for economic reasons, and why not. Everyone wants a better lifestyle.

When you do decide to move to another country, it is pure arrogance to think that you can bring your laws, culture and religion with you and try to impose it on the host country (unless you were a pioneer, lol).

Nowerdays I think the Australian attitude is about right, 'If you don't like it here, bog off.'