Big Horses...

[RichardRider]

I have a question for you breeders and competitors regarding the average size of dressage, show-jumper, and 3 day eventer horses in national and international competitions. A friend of mine here in France(he's English,) keeps telling me that the average size for most competitive breeds in England, is 1m55(sorry, am American, living here in France for 30 years so am not sure of "hands" as a measurement.) He says the French are breeding their horses too big...He's always saying things are better in England, etc, but, 1m55 sounds to me incredibly small...

I told him I'd put up the question here for an impartial(and English) response...lol.

Thanks...rr

 

[ihatework]

Sounds rubbish to me!!

155cm must be (of the top of my head) 15/15.1hh - there are very few decent competition horses at top level of that size.

I'd agree that horses seem to be being bred bigger and bigger though, most would fall into the 168-172 catagory I'd hazzard a totally uninformed guess.

Personally I like them around the 166-168 mark.

 

[no_no_nanette]

That sounds like a bit of a wild figure ..... 1m55 is 15.2hh. Average means of course that there would be a lot competing in the three disciplines in the UK who were well below that height as well as above it. Frankly I'd be surprised. Unless he's including ponies in his calculation! I would have thought that the average would be closer to 16.1 to 16.2hh

 

[RichardRider]

Thanks...Hope to get a few objective(not anti-French,) replies. I have one "Selle Francais" which is 1m78 and another 1m65, and ride another mare that's 1m72. Whenever there's the slightest problem with the two bigger ones my mate says it's due to "improper French Breeding Techniques..."

I don't see any horses under 1m60-65 competing in the more important events (and I live 1km from the national stud here.)

Will "cut and paste" some of the replies and email them to him later...

...rr

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Sounds rubbish to me!!

155cm must be (of the top of my head) 15/15.1hh - there are very few decent competition horses at top level of that size.

I'd agree that horses seem to be being bred bigger and bigger though, most would fall into the 168-172 catagory I'd hazzard a totally uninformed guess.

Personally I like them around the 166-168 mark.

Off the top of my head I can think of 2 pocket sized legends, Stroller and Teddy O'Connor.
Personally, I like small horses, they're tough little cookies and can spin on a sixpence. Size doesn't matter with jumping ability.

 

[ihatework]

Off the top of my head I can think of 2 pocket sized legends, Stroller and Teddy O'Connor.
Personally, I like small horses, they're tough little cookies and can spin on a sixpence. Size doesn't matter with jumping ability.

Of course there are little legends!!! But you are kind of missing the point ....
I have a soft spot for the little ones too

 

[gadetra]

The only top top international sjer i can think of at that height is Itot du Chateau (sp?). At that level it is the exception rather than the rule.
Horses are getting bigger, if you look at the ID for example, some are massive now in comparison to what they used to be and i think it follows through in most breeds.
I suppose it's the equavalent of me saying all Selle Francais are ginger giants!

 

[Sprout]

Always exceptions to the rule, but generally over here we see competition horses around the 16-16.2hh mark rr.

 

[RichardRider]

Always exceptions to the rule, but generally over here we see competition horses around the 16-16.2hh mark rr.

Checked and that would be 1m60-1m65. 16.3 being 1m70. Wow, that seems small. Sprout are you speaking(as I originally asked,) for the average national or internation competitive show jumper, dressage, and/or eventer horses? Not what the general competing public would like...

Thanks everyone. Seems to be 50-50 at this point. Really thought the top horses were getting bigger(not that size is the only factor to great jumpers.) I'm thinking of Japaloup...rr

 

[Casey76]

I agree that the horses I see in competition in France (and these are Club classes, not even Amateur or Pro) are all above 165cm. I'm not sure why your friend thinks it is incorrect breeding though, it's not as if the Selle Francaise has an upper limit specified in the breed standard.

 

[HBM1]

To get the average, I would look up the top 50 horses for dressage, eventing and showjumping worldwide (so 150 in total) and then average it out. That should give a pretty accurate answer, but off the top of my head I would say 16.2hh at least. (Sorry I am old and can't work in metres).

 

[Rollin]

I am in France and not a competition rider. I own and breed Shagya Arabs breed standard min 15.2hh and Cleveland Bays breed standard 16.00-16.2hh.

French riders love my Shagyas and in my experience the small light weight French riders love their TB's, Arabs and Anglo Arabs, they don't quite know what to make of a Cleveland Bay - till they have ridden one full gallop!!

I took a friend who is a BHS instructor, to visit the Cadre Noir at Saumur. After the visit I asked what she thought of the Selle Francais. She was bemused "They are all different". This is true. In one major centre the same breed can look like a TB or a Norman Cob (much like a heavy CB). Same breedm same stud book. One of the reasons I like 'closed' stud books.

I don't know what this tells us?

 

[RichardRider]

I am in France and not a competition rider. I own and breed Shagya Arabs breed standard min 15.2hh and Cleveland Bays breed standard 16.00-16.2hh.

French riders love my Shagyas and in my experience the small light weight French riders love their TB's, Arabs and Anglo Arabs, they don't quite know what to make of a Cleveland Bay - till they have ridden one full gallop!!

I took a friend who is a BHS instructor, to visit the Cadre Noir at Saumur. After the visit I asked what she thought of the Selle Francais. She was bemused "They are all different". This is true. In one major centre the same breed can look like a TB or a Norman Cob (much like a heavy CB). Same breedm same stud book. One of the reasons I like 'closed' stud books.

I don't know what this tells us?

I live a stone's throw from the "Haras de Pin" in Normandy, the famous national stud...Been here 16 years and before that 60 kms from Paris for another 15 ,and I've never seen a "Selle" that looked like a Norman Cub! I do ride an Anglo-Arab from time to time in addition to my Selle Francais(es)and he's fantastic! I'm no breeder though. My friend just really loves running down the French in just about every way, from shoeing techniques, breeding, and even told me(I learned to ride in France,) that I didn't know how to put on a bridle and why the heck did I ever use a saddle pad....He's a real character, my English Buddy...rr

 

[Amelia&Maisey]

Size does not matter, its the talent !My farrier jumped around junior Olympic tracks on his 12hh pony, including 9 bars ... on average I would say around 16.2 though !

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Of course there are little legends!!! But you are kind of missing the point ....
I have a soft spot for the little ones too

Yes, I know, was just playing devils advocate. Although the question is -are big competition horses bred because of fashion or ability ?

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

My friend just really loves running down the French in just about every way, from shoeing techniques, breeding, and even told me(I learned to ride in France,) that I didn't know how to put on a bridle and why the heck did I ever use a saddle pad....He's a real character, my English Buddy...rr

Character? I'd call him more than that (but am old & cranky today)

I'd ask HIM to prove his 'facts' RR

 

[Jesstickle]

I would say that your average showjumper is probably around the 16.3 mark these days. Eventers maybe slightly smaller but average would be well over 16hh across all the disciplines I am fairly confident and I would even go as far as to say the average may well be over 16.2 by now tbh.

15.2 is very small for an international horse, small enough that when you see one commentators mention how small it is anyway!

 

[RichardRider]

Found a conversion table and 16.3 would be 1m70...I swear, when I'm up at the "Pin," watching competition(I don't compete.) The horse all look as big as my horses...rr

 

[sport horse]

I would ask your friend how a 15.2 can cope with modern show jumps of 1.50 to 1.60 (Nations Cups and championships) when the courses and distances are so technical. Yes there are the rare small ones, Itot and Stroller to name two, but the vast majority of top class show jumpers are 16.2 to 17.1 hands ie 1.68 to 1.72Maybe he is talking of Riding Club horses rather than top end sport?

 

[RichardRider]

Character? I'd call him more than that (but am old & cranky today)

I'd ask HIM to prove his 'facts' RR

He may be a bit 'over the top' regarding the French(as my wife who is French, is with the English been going on between you lots for hundreds of years, lol,...But he DOES know a great deal about horses, to be fair.
...rr

 

[Rollin]

I live a stone's throw from the "Haras de Pin" in Normandy, the famous national stud...Been here 16 years and before that 60 kms from Paris for another 15 ,and I've never seen a "Selle" that looked like a Norman Cub! I do ride an Anglo-Arab from time to time in addition to my Selle Francais(es)and he's fantastic! I'm no breeder though. My friend just really loves running down the French in just about every way, from shoeing techniques, breeding, and even told me(I learned to ride in France,) that I didn't know how to put on a bridle and why the heck did I ever use a saddle pad....He's a real character, my English Buddy...rr

I am not far from Haras de Pin either. Suggest you visit Cadre Noir and you will see what I mean. Actually there are five pure bred CB's in the back pedigree of one famous SF stallion and they were originally demi-sang, so not surprising that some are quite like CB's or ID.

I have to agree with your friend on some aspects of life in France. I am now on my fifth farrier and had actually considered paying for an English farrier to come over, as I have been so unhappy with the quality of workmanship.

Told by a specialist equine vet that my CB mare was not in foal but had a cyst!! Re-scan two days later showed twins - just in time.

I don't like the French idea that one saddle, which fits the rider, is OK for any horse. I have four pure bred CB mares and each one requires a slightly different saddle. An English friend was invited for a forest ride recently and when she got there was asked if she had bought her own saddle!! Never seen the horse before.

Another friend who worked at a local equestrian centre told me the stables were only mucked out twice a week.

Lots of aspects of French life I love and we currently have a very hard working and talented stable jockey so not all bad. I do meet lots of English people who never settle here and finally go home. These are the ones who run down all aspects of French life.

 

[RichardRider]

I am not far from Haras de Pin either.

I have an a fantastic farrier, should you wish to try him. When I say 'stone's throw,' with regard to the national stud, I do my morning run there and can work my horses out at it's outdoor schools...Where are you located?

...rr