Big mare's vertabre out of place also thinner bit recommendations?

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cobface

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If you have seen my previous posts you will know that i have been struggling to get my mare to take up contact and work herself properly - instead she lunges forwards and snatches the reins and just tries to evade contact.........well i may have had a break through. I have had her teeth checked 3 weeks ago and she had 2 wolf teeth removed......today was her saddle. The saddle i had was fine, but a little on the hard side so it has been taken away to be re-stuffed etc.....he checked her back and said shes very tense through her back (where the back end of the saddle sits) a very good experienced instructor was also there and they both checked her back out and found that she has 3 vertabre out of place......we could actually see them - uneven and protruding. The instructer asked me a few questions ie does she do this, that etc......and says she has all the symptoms to do with back pain. He said if i had been a bigger rider ( am 9st) then he doubted she would have put up with my weight on her back being tender.......poor mare
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i have the back man coming next week so fingers crossed! also had her bit checked and saddle fitter says she has a very small mouth and recommended i get something a bit thinner.......
So any experience with vertabre out of place and ideas on a thinner bit?? (currently in loose ring lozenge)
turkish delight for getting this far
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Believe your vet, not the "back man"! How can you know a vertebra is out of place? It's burried well deep in your horse - what you see on the surface are the dorsal spines. A VET can tell you if there are problems wiht them (fractures etc)

Try Myler bits - they are nice and thin and don;t have the nutcracker action of snaffles. Some horses really like them and go well in them, especially horses with small mouths
 
Sorry it may not have been vertebre - am meaning the spine, it feels out of place, ie there not alined properly...........if that makes sense!
 
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Believe your vet, not the "back man"! How can you know a vertebra is out of place?

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He is not a random *back man* he comes highly recommended form our area and nearby surrounding areas by alot of people. He is fully qualified in what he does, he deals with skeletal problems and spinal manipulation.........
I believe in getting him out over the vet as its his field
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its like i prefer the dentist to do my horses teeth over the vet as its their field
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It may not be verterbre - i may have gotton that one wrong but verterbre where mentioned by the saddle man.....but yes, they are the dorsal spines that are out of place .:)
 
Sorry cobface - don't mean to come across as negative - but have seen a whole string of "back men" at yards in this area and most are ...well less said soonest mended.

I guess if youre happy with the person and they show good results it's the right thing to do.

Very sceptical about it all. these vertebrae are so deep in the horse's body it is hard to see how surface manipulation can affect them.
 
My mare's spine sticks out a bit, because she is old. You can certainly run your finger down them like the keys on a piano. I'm not sure about the "being out of place" bit, but from personal experience I can tell you it can happen to the human spine. I was practicing jumping off in canter MANY years ago for gymkhanas and hurt my back. A family friend who was a retired physio told me I had a displaced bone and I could clearly feel it sitting to one side of the line of the rest of my spine. Some exercises later and it all popped back into place. Bloomin' well drove me mad with pain at the time though.
 
If your horse appears to have things sticking out of her spine then get the vet, not a physio.

I am always amazed that owners think a "back man" can really manipulate the bones of a half tonne animal
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IME, physio and osteo etc just treat the symptoms, not the cause of a problem. You need a vet for that. My horse is case in point... he has spavins which were treated last year. He seized up a lot over Xmas with being stuck in thanks to snow and ice for 3 weeks. Came back into work very stiff when schooling, bucking and bunny hopping, generally a bit unhappy. It was a choice of either call physio, who would have come, charged me £50 for a massage but not really dealt with the underlying cause. Instead I phoned the vet, had a good chat with him and he said he felt the problem was stiffness in his hocks due to being stuck in. I followed vet's advice, which was to give bute for a few days to ease the stiffness, and I now have a horse who is going better than ever (he has been off the bute for a month, so it isn't a case of masking it)...and a much healthier bank balance.
 
If your horse has true back pain and there is any suspicion that there is something wrong with your horses back then yout 'experienced back man' will tell you to have a vet check first before referral back to him. If he doesn't he is a cowboy.
I strongly reccomend that first port of call is your vet who will be able to advise if xrays are a required test before referring on for physio/chiro.

I agree with the myler comments - but if the horse has a bad back a bit change won't help a great deal!
 
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If your horse has true back pain and there is any suspicion that there is something wrong with your horses back then yout 'experienced back man' will tell you to have a vet check first before referral back to him. If he doesn't he is a cowboy.
I strongly reccomend that first port of call is your vet who will be able to advise if xrays are a required test before referring on for physio/chiro.

I agree with the myler comments - but if the horse has a bad back a bit change won't help a great deal!

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Echo the above. My physio won't treat any horse until she has spoken to the vet, and the oste won't treat without an actual vet referral...
 
Yes - back pain and behavioral changes when ridden are all secondary to spavin - that's why you need your vet to review. Back pain seems to be so often secondary to something else.
 
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Yes - back pain and behavioral changes when ridden are all secondary to spavin - that's why you need your vet to review. Back pain seems to be so often secondary to something else.

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My horse was treated for over a year for a sore back - it was his feet all along.
 
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My horse was treated for over a year for a sore back - it was his feet all along.

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How did you find out it was his feet?
My mare is tender across her back where the back of the saddle site (loin area i think??? - sorry not too hot on anatomy!) she fidgeted alot when the saddle man ran his hand along her spine.........said she was very tense through that area.
 
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My horse was treated for over a year for a sore back - it was his feet all along.

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How did you find out it was his feet?
My mare is tender across her back where the back of the saddle site (loin area i think??? - sorry not too hot on anatomy!) she fidgeted alot when the saddle man ran his hand along her spine.........said she was very tense through that area.

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My horse actually went very lame last year, and had a full lameness work up done. Once the issues with his feet were identified and addressed the issues concerning his back vanished.
 
Yes SS - that was my experience - I got the vet to look at a sore back (in the loins, behind saddle) and it turned out to be bilateral spavin he also rode with his head right up in the air to relieve it.

Unless thesaddle is really badly fitted, or the horse has rolled on a stone or fractured a spine/kissing.....I'm inclined to always view it as secondary result rather than an primary ailment
 
Same here. Horse was stiff but ended up getting the vet out for a foot problem in front (turned out to be new shoe nailed on a bit high or shoe too hot, something like that), but whilst vet was there he said he thought horse was v stiff behind and that he had spavins. Came back a week later with x-ray machine and bingo, spavin in both hocks. Which explains why, though the physio previously helped relieve the symptoms of his sore back and general grumpiness, it never went away 100%. Massive difference since having his hocks medicated though.
 
[ QUOTE ]
If your horse appears to have things sticking out of her spine then get the vet, not a physio.

I am always amazed that owners think a "back man" can really manipulate the bones of a half tonne animal
crazy.gif


IME, physio and osteo etc just treat the symptoms, not the cause of a problem. You need a vet for that. My horse is case in point... he has spavins which were treated last year. He seized up a lot over Xmas with being stuck in thanks to snow and ice for 3 weeks. Came back into work very stiff when schooling, bucking and bunny hopping, generally a bit unhappy. It was a choice of either call physio, who would have come, charged me £50 for a massage but not really dealt with the underlying cause. Instead I phoned the vet, had a good chat with him and he said he felt the problem was stiffness in his hocks due to being stuck in. I followed vet's advice, which was to give bute for a few days to ease the stiffness, and I now have a horse who is going better than ever (he has been off the bute for a month, so it isn't a case of masking it)...and a much healthier bank balance.

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What she said.
If some tw@t has told you that your horses vertebrae are out of place, run for the hills. Do you know the kind of force that would need to be exerted in order for those vertebrae to move?

Lordy............
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She has never been lame since i have owned her........(July) my main concern with her is why she always resists when i try to ask for a nice contact......every day hacking and schooling shes fine with, she will go round normally without resistance, its when i try work her in an outline she gets stressy and starts the head thing.
First point of call was teeth, just had her saddle checked and it seems fine, just getting it re-stuffed. Next week its her back, if shes still no better the vet will be the next step..........
Surely it must be her back though if shes uncomfortable with pressure applied to a certain area?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If your horse appears to have things sticking out of her spine then get the vet, not a physio.

I am always amazed that owners think a "back man" can really manipulate the bones of a half tonne animal
crazy.gif


IME, physio and osteo etc just treat the symptoms, not the cause of a problem. You need a vet for that. My horse is case in point... he has spavins which were treated last year. He seized up a lot over Xmas with being stuck in thanks to snow and ice for 3 weeks. Came back into work very stiff when schooling, bucking and bunny hopping, generally a bit unhappy. It was a choice of either call physio, who would have come, charged me £50 for a massage but not really dealt with the underlying cause. Instead I phoned the vet, had a good chat with him and he said he felt the problem was stiffness in his hocks due to being stuck in. I followed vet's advice, which was to give bute for a few days to ease the stiffness, and I now have a horse who is going better than ever (he has been off the bute for a month, so it isn't a case of masking it)...and a much healthier bank balance.

[/ QUOTE ]

What she said.
If some tw@t has told you that your horses vertebrae are out of place, run for the hills. Do you know the kind of force that would need to be exerted in order for those vertebrae to move?

Lordy............
smirk.gif


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Sorry the back man hasnt been yet.........it may not have been verebre that they said......its the bones you can see along the spine, they said 3 dont look aligned properly.....that was the saddle man and an instructor who said that.......sorry if am sounding stupid but am not very good on horse skeletal structures and muscles
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You have me worried now about the feet
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She has never been lame since i have owned her........(July) my main concern with her is why she always resists when i try to ask for a nice contact......every day hacking and schooling shes fine with, she will go round normally without resistance, its when i try work her in an outline she gets stressy and starts the head thing.
First point of call was teeth, just had her saddle checked and it seems fine, just getting it re-stuffed. Next week its her back, if shes still no better the vet will be the next step..........
Surely it must be her back though if shes uncomfortable with pressure applied to a certain area?

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My horse was never lame either!!! Just a bit stiff. In fact when the vet came, he was bilaterally lame behind which is why he just looked stiff.

What people are saying is that a bad back is usually a symptom of something else. Yes her back is sore, but it could well be being caused by something else. When they are sore, eg legs, they hold themselves tight across their back. Mine was sore across his sacroilliac and lumbar region - there was a severe reaction when palpitated. This is very common in horses with spavins. When you deal with the actual problem rather than the symptom, the soreness eases.
 
No one said it was her feet. What was said was that one forum user had similar probs and her horse had foot issues. Others have had yet more similar problems and had leg issues.

If you are unsure then your first port of call should always be your vet, especially if you don't trust your own judgement. Neither your instructor or your saddler is a vet. Both the former, IME, have a tendency to make sweeping statements based on quite little knowledge of horse physiology - ie, "your horse's pelvis is out". This isn't possible.

No one on a forum can diagnose your horse over the internet. Call the vet!
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If your horse appears to have things sticking out of her spine then get the vet, not a physio.

I am always amazed that owners think a "back man" can really manipulate the bones of a half tonne animal
crazy.gif


IME, physio and osteo etc just treat the symptoms, not the cause of a problem. You need a vet for that. My horse is case in point... he has spavins which were treated last year. He seized up a lot over Xmas with being stuck in thanks to snow and ice for 3 weeks. Came back into work very stiff when schooling, bucking and bunny hopping, generally a bit unhappy. It was a choice of either call physio, who would have come, charged me £50 for a massage but not really dealt with the underlying cause. Instead I phoned the vet, had a good chat with him and he said he felt the problem was stiffness in his hocks due to being stuck in. I followed vet's advice, which was to give bute for a few days to ease the stiffness, and I now have a horse who is going better than ever (he has been off the bute for a month, so it isn't a case of masking it)...and a much healthier bank balance.

[/ QUOTE ]

What she said.
If some tw@t has told you that your horses vertebrae are out of place, run for the hills. Do you know the kind of force that would need to be exerted in order for those vertebrae to move?

Lordy............
smirk.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry the back man hasnt been yet.........it may not have been verebre that they said......its the bones you can see along the spine, they said 3 dont look aligned properly.....that was the saddle man and an instructor who said that.......sorry if am sounding stupid but am not very good on horse skeletal structures and muscles
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You have me worried now about the feet
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Hun, honestly, call your vet. Don't panic until you have your horse looked at.....it is possible for muscles to go into spasm, that in itself would cause alot of pain/discomfort........but I doubt very much that the vertebrae have moved.

Chin up, every single one of us is on a learning curve with our horses.
 
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Don't panic until you have your horse looked at.

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Easier said than done...
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I have been known to sit up all night, literally, worrying about what might be wrong with my horse, what might happen if X is wrong, what else might happen if it's Y... And despite knowing that my vet has many many other clients, I tend to sit and stare at my phone all day once I've left him a v/mail until he calls back
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To the OP, SD10 is right. You can (and I do!) worry yourself sick thinking about what it might be.
 
Thanks guys, will see what the back man says. If she is no better then i will be calling the vet to take a look.
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just out of interest - if i do call the vet to investigate will i be covered on my veterinary side of my horse insurance?
 
Cobface, honestly you NEED to get the vet FIRST. He can then recommend you have the 'back man' out (if he feels its necessary) and its much more likely that you may get cover for that on your insurance if you do it the CORRECT way round.

Calling the back man in yourself, first, is self medicating....this WONT be covered on your insurance.
 
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