BIG youngster

Can I ask those who say they would never feed a stud balancer explain to me why this is as I do not understand.

It is widely accepted that OCD can occur from a diet that is too rich in carbohydrates i.e diets that use energy from starch as the prime energy source. Starch is found in cereals so this is relating to a traditional stud mix where the starch content is very high.

A balancer is a feed for horses who do not require a high calorie diet to maintain their weight but still need to ensure they are receiving a balanced diet.

Energy in feeds can be sourced by either fibre, oil or starch (starch is from cereals)

A balancer does not use starch/cereals as the primary energy source and has optimum levels of vitamins and minerals, including good quality protein needed to insure steady growth of young stock. This is why it is obsured to say that they cause OCD as they clearly do not.
 
I have a very tall three year old - bought him when he was 18 months. He's currently standing around 17.2. I was advised by the stud I bought him from to feed him sure grow which I have done - phoned d&h and they've recommended to keep him on it. He has the recommended amount for his size has adlib forage - haylage or 24/7 turnout and doesn't have any growth issues at all. I've purposely kept him lean. Another three year old on the yard - much smaller - approx 15hh was diagnosed with some joint issues as a foal as it was growing too fast, so it's not just the big horses but all young stock that need careful management. I hate to see really well covered youngsters.
 
Trot_On_Dressage said:
Can I ask those who say they would never feed a stud balancer explain to me why this is as I do not understand.

It is widely accepted that OCD can occur from a diet that is too rich in carbohydrates i.e diets that use energy from starch as the prime energy source. Starch is found in cereals so this is relating to a traditional stud mix where the starch content is very high.

A balancer is a feed for horses who do not require a high calorie diet to maintain their weight but still need to ensure they are receiving a balanced diet.

Energy in feeds can be sourced by either fibre, oil or starch (starch is from cereals)

A balancer does not use starch/cereals as the primary energy source and has optimum levels of vitamins and minerals, including good quality protein needed to insure steady growth of young stock. This is why it is obsured to say that they cause OCD as they clearly do not.
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Could it be because owners like to see a large colourful meal in the bucket and put human values into feeding. My filly's bowl she has just wolfed down does not look appetising at all, tiny grey pellets, tiny quantity, does the human brain look at that and think 'that can't possibly be enough for that big growing baby' ? Whereas you look at a 'mix' be it stud, competition, leisure etc and it has peas, maize, dried carrot, sweet smelling mint and molasses and it 'appeals' to us ?
 
Trot_On_Dressage said:
Can I ask those who say they would never feed a stud balancer explain to me why this is as I do not understand.

It is widely accepted that OCD can occur from a diet that is too rich in carbohydrates i.e diets that use energy from starch as the prime energy source. Starch is found in cereals so this is relating to a traditional stud mix where the starch content is very high.

A balancer is a feed for horses who do not require a high calorie diet to maintain their weight but still need to ensure they are receiving a balanced diet.

Energy in feeds can be sourced by either fibre, oil or starch (starch is from cereals)

A balancer does not use starch/cereals as the primary energy source and has optimum levels of vitamins and minerals, including good quality protein needed to insure steady growth of young stock. This is why it is obsured to say that they cause OCD as they clearly do not.
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Completely and utterly agree, my Iberian broodies and youngsters, who are notoriously good doers all do very well on a balancer, low in starch and high in the nutrients needed for steady growth - it is cereals that cause growth problems. Protein is not the enemy, starch is.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Could it be because owners like to see a large colourful meal in the bucket and put human values into feeding. My filly's bowl she has just wolfed down does not look appetising at all, tiny grey pellets, tiny quantity, does the human brain look at that and think 'that can't possibly be enough for that big growing baby' ? Whereas you look at a 'mix' be it stud, competition, leisure etc and it has peas, maize, dried carrot, sweet smelling mint and molasses and it 'appeals' to us ?
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Nail on head methinks AA :)
 
AdorableAlice said:
Could it be because owners like to see a large colourful meal in the bucket and put human values into feeding. My filly's bowl she has just wolfed down does not look appetising at all, tiny grey pellets, tiny quantity, does the human brain look at that and think 'that can't possibly be enough for that big growing baby' ? Whereas you look at a 'mix' be it stud, competition, leisure etc and it has peas, maize, dried carrot, sweet smelling mint and molasses and it 'appeals' to us ?
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And I rejected three different specific youngstock brands specifically because it had those types of "ingredients" in it.

I'm not sure why molasses is still seen as a viable food additive these days :rolleyes:
 
This is a really interesting and informative thread.

I have a big older horse who was shown very succesfully, he was a fussy feeder and everything was tried with him. All the build me up, make me shine, make go me go faster, slow release fast release, make me look wonderful without bucking the judge off or peeing off out of the NEC arena, make me fart etc etc. You name it he had it over the years he competed.

He inevitably would like the first 3rd of the bag and then say 'no thanks gone off it' I had the best conditioned cows in the district who did plenty of fast releasing burping.

Eventually I went back to basics and he thrived, looked magnificent and did alot of winning on........£3.70 a bag corn store own brand nuts with a stud balancer and ad lib haylage. Top Spec sponsored the hunters at Hoys and I bet he was the only one there living on pony nuts and a cup of Top Spec !
 
I would always use a balancer or supplement with a fibre diet over hard feed of cube/mix any day. In the past when i was using mix/cubes other than horses that have initially come to me in poor condition I never had to feed anything like the rda, The fact that two horses with the same height, wieght and workload can survive on totally different feed amounts because of breeding and varying metabolic rates should never be overlooked. After years of chopping and changing I've found a feed that works well, does what it says on the tin, and the beauty of it is that it suits. Both of mine :D but still, they are on far less than the rda even in winter. I agree with whoever it was that said things are just too complex. I think the problems arrive mainly when people follow the advice on the packaging but don't look at the wider picture of the situation either through naivity or inexperience. It's a good thing we have. Nutritionalists, and of course many will try and sell you a product that they endorse, but with such a wide Variety of feeds produced by each company it is highly unlikely that they will not be able to reccomending something suitable from the manufacturers range.
 
That is exactly right QueenBee. Horses are individuals after all and what works for one doesn't work for another.

It is amazing at how many people feed their horses products that their friends use or fed previous horse even though the requirements are completley different. In some cases this may result in the horse suffering from either an overload of energy, overload of calories, weight loss or in some cases causing laminitis/colic or tying up. I have spoken with many owners who have fed a known laminitic a conditioning mix because there horse needed more calories but they didn't know enough about types of energy to make a sufficient choice which unfortunately resulted in horse getting laminitis again. The owner then blames feed company when it actually is their fault as they fed the wrong product for that particular horse. They should have chose fibre and oil instead of cereal starch.

This is why there is a broad range of feeds available on the market. Some horses are good doers and only require a balancer, some require a full ration of low cal high fibre feed and others require higher calories whether that's from fibre and oil or cereal starch, it all depends on the horse, ailments, sensitivity, workload etc.

Feed companies although are there to sell their feed are also there to help you choose the best feed from their range and their recommendations are based on scientific research and facts, not myths and propaganda. Vets also work along side them.
 
Well I shall be brave and tell people what I feed.. Please dont shoot me as it seems to work for my youngsters and the vet agrees that they are in perfect condition...

my 2 youngsters are on d&h mare and youngstock on the rda. The grazing I have is terrible. Hence why I feed them mare and youngstock over suregrow. with a few handfuls of alpha a oil to stop them bolting.

They have adlib good quality haylage and linseed oil for omega 3.

They way I look upon feed companies have a duty to prescribe the feed our horses need. If the company was found to be prescribing the wrong feeds, they wouldnt still be trading - not 100% but surely it comes under false advertising as you can't say a feed is for one horse when it isnt. Bit like our food we buy from supermarkets they cant make up the ingredients.

Young horses need specific micronutrients that the feeds designed for youngstock prescribe. I think issues will occur when an owner has a seemingly over weight youngster and then feeds it the rda for its weight when it really doesnt need that much.

I think that you are right you can over a feed a youngster but I also think there is a case for under feeding too. All my youngsters you can still ribs - my smaller filly is covered however you can still see the ribs when she moves. My oter youngster came to me and you could see every rib and his withers were like a knife edge.. he has now filled out you can still see ribs and his withers, back and hips are better covered, though he isnt fat.

I guess my plan for the summer is to have them on the grass during the day and shut them away at night and take their feed down to a very simple mix of of a youngstock supp, alpha a oil and the linseed oil.

Feeding is 100% to do with calculating it to the horse but also looking at its surroundings - can it forage for its own nutrients or is the grazing poor? Is the horse fed on haylage or hay?

I have one mare prone to tying up, I stick to keeping her on a vitamin supplement and a handful of alpha a, she does really well. If she is in hard work she goes onto rice bran and when she's had a bit of time off I put electrolytes in her feed until she gets a little fitter and her muscles are used to be back in work.
 
I have a big 2yr old. 15.2/3ish already and he's only meant to be 16.1 ish eventually.:eek:

He was underweight when he arrived so was on adlib good quality hay and a very small amount of sugarbeet and conditioning cube with a general allround balancer (at same level as the rest get) He's now joined his friends on average/poor quality grazing and still gets his small bucket feed daily (works out about a round full scoop in total) He's put on the little weight I wanted and is now maintaining on that on what he's getting.

This is him the other day and I don't want any more weight on him until nearer winter.
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You can do FAR more damage overfeeding than underfeeding!
 
Kallibear said:
You can do FAR more damage overfeeding than underfeeding!
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How? Im not disagreeing with you at all but just want to know the science behind it - :o in my mind malnourished, i dont me a skin and bone horse but something that lacks well being is just as bad as an over nourished horse. Ok I can see with the growing too fast but a body is capable to work out what it does and doesnt need and can excrete the stuff its doesnt want.. whereas the body cant make nutrients - or it can, it can draw on reserve which comprimises other parts of the horse.. But thats just how I work it out in my little and tired brain at 1:45 am!! lol
 
Diluteherd your feed is fine :) if your feeding the rda the diet will be balanced etc.

The best way to see how your horse is doing on its feed is to condition score it. Your horse looks fine in the pics and as you say your grazing is poor so he def needs the extra calories the stud mix provides otherwise he would be over weight.

Watch his weight when your grazing changes, it may be necessary to change his feed to a stud balancer (less calories but not less nutrition) so he doesn't get over weight and perhaps look at methods to restrict grass like strip grazing, muzzle etc .
 
Diluteherd. You'd be amazed at how hard it is to malnourish a horse other than starving it! It's far easier to over feed calories and nutritients and cause excessive growth than it is to malnourish them (as long as they're a reasonable body condition)

They've VERY efficient digesters who can make up their vits and minerals from average hay or grass. Deficiencies to a level that are detrimental to their health or growth are rare. Any horse holding a reasonable body weight is unlikely to have a mineral deficiency. Minor deficiencies are often first seen in their feet quality and coat, so if they're glossy, decent feet and a good condition, they're fine!

Feed companies are there to make MONEY. They will tell you what you want to here and will sell you as much they can manage. They are unlikely to be stupid enough to damage your horse but more than happy to sell you something your horse doesn't really need. The more expensive the better.

People make far too much song and dance about feeding babies. They need enough decent roughage (grass or hay) to maintain a healthy lean weight and a general balancer/supplement to make up any minor deficiencies (and often not even that). Sure Grow/Mare and foal mix etc is just a fairly expensive but easy way of feeding the balancer.
 
Kallibear said:
Diluteherd. You'd be amazed at how hard it is to malnourish a horse other than starving it! It's far easier to over feed calories and nutritients and cause excessive growth than it is to malnourish them (as long as they're a reasonable body condition)

They've VERY efficient digesters who can make up their vits and minerals from average hay or grass. Deficiencies to a level that are detrimental to their health or growth are rare. Any horse holding a reasonable body weight is unlikely to have a mineral deficiency. Minor deficiencies are often first seen in their feet quality and coat, so if they're glossy, decent feet and a good condition, they're fine!

Feed companies are there to make MONEY. They will tell you what you want to here and will sell you as much they can manage. They are unlikely to be stupid enough to damage your horse but more than happy to sell you something your horse doesn't really need. The more expensive the better.

People make far too much song and dance about feeding babies. They need enough decent roughage (grass or hay) to maintain a healthy lean weight and a general balancer/supplement to make up any minor deficiencies (and often not even that). Sure Grow/Mare and foal mix etc is just a fairly expensive but easy way of feeding the balancer.
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I agree....this is almost exactly what my vet said...and I trust his knowledge. He is not a nutritionist...but he has to deal with the results of overfeeding and as he knew my mare has OCD he took a lot of time to discuss my youngster.
 
I cannot speak for all feed companies as I have only worked for one ( a leading company) How ever would like to say that in my experience of working in the industry that isn't the case. Yes they are there to make money, how ever the care lines are not run on a commission type scenario, they do not have targets to hit or anything so the advice being given is non biased and not based on what is an expensive product. The advice given is what the nutritionist feels is better for the horse and is based on scientific evidence and research. Infact, over the years I did this I actually helped bring the cost down for people by offering a simple feed plan. As mentioned in previous post if their diet was already perfect then I would say so, whether they were feeding a rivals feed or not! I feel it is unfair to tar all feed companies in this manner. They invest a large amount of money in researching feeding and nutrition and unless you have worked in the industry or have first hand knowledge of what they do you will not understand how amazing these services are.
 
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