Biomechanic pro's please....opinions of this horse

SpanishNeddy said:
OK interesting, the lady riding in the second video works at the yard and is the one that schools horses on schooling livery. She bought on my other PRE from a nervous wreck to in full competition, she did an amazing job with my other boy. She rode this one just because I wanted to see him being ridden by someone else! I thought he went well too. Interestingly this lady is a very strong rider, as of course she schools many horses per day (its her job obviously) so if you think he looks a lot better in the second video......would that indicate it's a green-ness / schooling issue?
Click to expand...

I went into a bit more detail in my post late last night but yes, it would help him. He is far less likely to struggle balancing himself when he doesn't have to worry about the rider on board. When you have a young horse that is not in consistent work so quite weak in muscle and strength, he will be unbalanced anyway. Add to that a rider that is not in "full work" i.e. riding regularly and able to remain in perfect balance even when the horse is not and you have a horse and rider shasing eachother for balance, neither being completely independent. Add to that quite a few different riders and a young horse can easily become unable to find a confidence in what he is doing.

I think I said it before but I will say it again. I think he would benefit from just you and maybe one other rider, who can ride like the girl in that last video. What I have said is not a slight on any of the riders. None of them ride badly at all and I like the way they all ride, but the rider in the last video just looks far more independent secure in HER seat which is what I believe made the difference to his lightness and ability to get the front end off the ground a bit more.

I still agree that it is worth doing all the checks, but I think this is more something that is a result of a genuine horse just trying to cope without really knowing how to.

As I said a few posts/pages ago, hacking will help him, but so will consistent, light work as that rider in the last video did. I would stay off the lunge for a while, or if you have to, don't use side reins or any training aids like a pessoa. He needs to be allowed to find his own way for a while to build his confidence in what he is doing with his feet. For that, he needs to balance himself and any training aid will give him something to aid that balance and you'll be in a vicious circle. Think, "head up - shoulders up". That can be your phase one. By the time he has found his own balance and is working light and swinging confidently through his back, the wonkiness will be all but gone and you can then start phase two of bringing in more self carriage. Self balance and self carriage being two very different things.

In my experience, Iberian breeds benefit HUGELY from being given their heads as youngsters but, more than most breeds can be "broken" very easily by having their heads on the vertical be the main focus of attention when they are young. The only rider I saw actively holding your horses head in was in the very first video, but she has done work that you now need to undo. I hope that makes sense.

And to clarify, one of the other riders gave him his head, but his movement wasn't as good as with the rider in the last video. Just giving him enough rein to go around as he wishes is not enough. He still needs to be ridden and guided by a balanced and independent rider. He still needs a connection between his back and front and a skilled rider, as in the last video can do that without interfering with him.

It would be great to see you ride him but you know him better than anyone, so you will know what he goes like with you. Just perhaps think hard about who else is allowed to ride him, knowing that they will not want too much, but also, know how to guide him correctly. Hope that all makes sense :)
 
JingleSmells said:
I've just watched the videos more closely. Firstly I think that this boy would be a very interesting ride, I do like him. He looks smart but calm which is a combination I love but it can be very difficult when they are green.

To me, the video below in which he is ridden by the girl that schooled horses at the OPs old yard is very interesting. She doesn't allow him to just poke his nose out and gangle about BUT she rides very quietly and does not pull his head in. He looks altogether lighter up front and more fluid in his movement. He is not consistent in his self carriage at all, but there is consistency in his trying to balance himself and not rely on riders hands for that.

OP...did he trip much with this rider? I'll go out on a limb and say I bet he didn't trip much with her, if at all. With the other riders, I can see why he might have the opportunity to use them to balance on, which I believe he learned before you got him going by the first video you posted.

He really does appeal to me and you may all remember another horse that became quite famous on here that had developed a complete inability to be consistent in a good contact because he had learned to evade by going BTV. OP...you have got this horse when he is still young. I would rather be safe than sorry so I would continue to explore this with the vet, but if my gut is right, he is just a smart horse trying to figure it all out.

My advice, find a rider that can do what the girl in the video below does and let her, or you be the only person/people to ride him until he has, quite literally found his feet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7weebEQ1ljA
Click to expand...

Great post thank you very much, appreciated.

He is a very lovely boy to ride, he is VERY calm and chilled. Which is why I bought him. Some of you may know I have another PRE who was very problematic when I first bought him, panic bolting issues. The girl you are refering to (who you think rides this boy well) rode my problematic PRE and schooled him for 18 months getting him out and about at county level. She did a very good job with my other boy. She is known for riding very calm and classically and gets many problematic horses sorted. She does not even think tense! which was great for my other boy.
She however, has not ridden this boy at all apart from once (which the video shows a few mins of). I have been riding him myself as I bought this boy as he was perfect on me gaining my confidence back after I lost it with my other previously problematic one. So, I didnt want the easy option of just getting someone else to school him, as that's what happened to my last one as I was too frightened to ride him!!!! but this boy as green as he is bless him, has gained me my confidence back and who would think it with a 5 year old green stallion!! he is VERY cheeky on the ground but to ride, as you can see, he just wants to please. He has never bolted / bucked / reared or spooked since ive had him. Very good boy albeit green.

I agree, she does ride him the best. I knew I would have to move him however to a new yard, so there was no point her schooling him. I wanted him to have grass turnout, hacking and better surfaces in the schools. Which my new yard I moved to last weekend does. I am a big fan of her riding though, as I say she did a wonderful job with my other boy who, although still has his quirks, is pretty much 'normal' now! prior to her bringing him on I had GP riders by the way and people telling me to put him down.......! that's how problematic my other PRE used to be before she bought him on. He is now novice/ele level.

Regarding your question about whether he tripped with her, it was only one occasion she rode him and I remember I do not think he did. She has a very strong core, as you can prob see so I guess her seat is much better at lifting him up front.

A month after he arrived he actually tripped in canter with me and fell over! throwing me to land on my head. Since I am only concerntrating on walk and trot but as said before it has been onconsistant due to having to find new yard (which has taken along time due to the fact he is a stallion and my requirements for him to have turnout etc).

Yes I do know the other horse you refer to. I would not have put most of those riders on either of my two, just to make that clear LOL.
 
JingleSmells said:
I went into a bit more detail in my post late last night but yes, it would help him. He is far less likely to struggle balancing himself when he doesn't have to worry about the rider on board. When you have a young horse that is not in consistent work so quite weak in muscle and strength, he will be unbalanced anyway. Add to that a rider that is not in "full work" i.e. riding regularly and able to remain in perfect balance even when the horse is not and you have a horse and rider shasing eachother for balance, neither being completely independent. Add to that quite a few different riders and a young horse can easily become unable to find a confidence in what he is doing.

I think I said it before but I will say it again. I think he would benefit from just you and maybe one other rider, who can ride like the girl in that last video. What I have said is not a slight on any of the riders. None of them ride badly at all and I like the way they all ride, but the rider in the last video just looks far more independent secure in HER seat which is what I believe made the difference to his lightness and ability to get the front end off the ground a bit more.

I still agree that it is worth doing all the checks, but I think this is more something that is a result of a genuine horse just trying to cope without really knowing how to.

As I said a few posts/pages ago, hacking will help him, but so will consistent, light work as that rider in the last video did. I would stay off the lunge for a while, or if you have to, don't use side reins or any training aids like a pessoa. He needs to be allowed to find his own way for a while to build his confidence in what he is doing with his feet. For that, he needs to balance himself and any training aid will give him something to aid that balance and you'll be in a vicious circle. Think, "head up - shoulders up". That can be your phase one. By the time he has found his own balance and is working light and swinging confidently through his back, the wonkiness will be all but gone and you can then start phase two of bringing in more self carriage. Self balance and self carriage being two very different things.

In my experience, Iberian breeds benefit HUGELY from being given their heads as youngsters but, more than most breeds can be "broken" very easily by having their heads on the vertical be the main focus of attention when they are young. The only rider I saw actively holding your horses head in was in the very first video, but she has done work that you now need to undo. I hope that makes sense.

And to clarify, one of the other riders gave him his head, but his movement wasn't as good as with the rider in the last video. Just giving him enough rein to go around as he wishes is not enough. He still needs to be ridden and guided by a balanced and independent rider. He still needs a connection between his back and front and a skilled rider, as in the last video can do that without interfering with him.

It would be great to see you ride him but you know him better than anyone, so you will know what he goes like with you. Just perhaps think hard about who else is allowed to ride him, knowing that they will not want too much, but also, know how to guide him correctly. Hope that all makes sense :)
Click to expand...

All makes total sense to me - thanks.

Those people in the vids do not ride him by the way.
The first video was the agent on him a few days after I had seen him in Spain, as I asked her to do me a video (as day after I met him he was being shod so I wanted to see the difference as feet were long). Interesting what you comment on her riding, as I know she rides a lot in draw reins at home! which I think is obvious. I'm making no further comments apart from that, she is better than me BUT I am not a draw rein fan at all and with this horse it would be a nightmare with him being on the forehand anyway!!

The second rider, was my friend. She just came to see him and have a quick 10 mins ride on him. She has not ridden for a couple of years. I told her to give him more rein, which she did.

The third rider I have talked about already. Yes she has a GREAT seat indeed.

The new yard I have just moved to are going to school him twice per week for me. To help with his schooling. He only moved there last saturday. Yesterday was their first day in which they were going to ride him. They gave him a lunge first then did not get on as that is when they phoned me about his forelimbs.

I have done teeth - this was done quite a few months ago, by a well known recommended equine dentist. He said he had a fantastic equine mouth! (hmmm there you go haha). He had some teeth coming through (cant remember what ones) but they shouldn't effect him too much he said. About a month after, he did get very gobby and I could see a tooth coming through, so I put it down to that. He has been fine since.

Saddle - as above he has a hollistic Barry Swain Semiflex fitted by Kay Humphries. Amazing saddles, totally changed my other PRE.

Interesting re: lunging gadgets. I have always been a fan of lunging in head collar only, for the reason you have stated. My other PRE goes best in just a head collar, gadgets just interfere. However, I did lunge this boy lose but he REALLY struggles. When I add side reins or lunge in a pessoa it seems to really help him and he is not all over the place like he is lose. When lose he can not even make one - two circles in canter! he falls out etc. When in side reins / pessoa he is fine. I do not have them tight at all by the way. I do agree though, better without and that's how i usually do it.....but with this boy it seemed a waste of time if you see what i mean. Do you think still do not use them?

With regards to giving him his head, this is how that rider you like dealt with my other boy. It took her a long time to take up the rein but now you can of course. I will post a video of her on my other PRE.

I can see what you mean about all of the riders yes :-)

I am the only one who rides him and has ridden him for months now. But of course the new yard will be schooling him twice per week.
 
This is the rider you like on my other PRE. This PRE I was advised a few years ago to put to sleep! he had severe blind panic bolting issues and was very problematic indeed. Messed up in Spain. The same rider schooled him 5 days a week for 18 months and the horse now competes at county level ! winning and has many champ titles to his name now. She did fab job with him.

Yes he can be tense still, but you have to remember the above so even competing at Hartpury is a massive achievement for him, I'm so proud of him.

A few videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB3hzQkjKG8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjWNNW193P0
 
I have liked all the riders apart from the first video. I hope you tell your friend who hasn't ridden for two years what I thought in my post about that video as it's amazing to ride like that after 2 year out of the saddle :)

As for the lunging, yes, I would stick with it without any gadgets. Actually, as I think I mentioned before, I wouldn't bother lunging for a while and just hack and school lightly, mainly straight lines, using diagonals etc. rather than too many circles. When you do lunge though, as well need to sometimes and when you do start it regularly again (of course you don't have to follow my advice, just saying it as if you do) I would not introduce canter on the lunge until he was able to cope properly with walk and trot. He's a big boy as you say, so even using the whole width of the school, given his workload this year, it is a big ask of him to be balanced in canter on a circle like that. Of course he is better in side reins or a pessoa...he can use them as a balancing tool. They excuse him from having to try and find his own balance. Unfortunately, as with the ridden work, it is a vicious cycle. The more he relies on something or someone else for balance, the less likely he is to actually pick himself up and start working properly.

Now, just because I say I think he is leaning on the gadgets/hands to balance himself doesn't mean he has to do it in a literal sense. Put a person on a narrow bridge 200ft over a canyon and ask them to walk it I guarantee they will walk it twice as fast if there is a handrail...even though they may just have their hand hovering over it, not actually using it. The fact is, it is there if it is needed and the confidence that gives is what makes the difference. It is physically no different to walking down the street, the person is perfectly capable of doing it with or without the handrail, but the handrails presence gives the psychological advantage of confidence.

Now...put that in terms of your horse and when he is running around the field, he is fine. He can probably canter super tight circles without losing balance and move as freely as the wind, but not when ridden. When ridden there is an element of doubt. Just as the doubt for the person on the bridge is the 200ft drop below them, the doubt for your boy is the rider on his back or the combination of listening to you, staying on a constant circle, with a rope holding him there. The hands or gadgets that keep him in place, whether he always uses them or they just act as a psychological crutch, will prevent him from ever figuring it out for himself.

He will get it. Obviously this is just my opinion and I give it whether you wish to use it or not I don't mind either way. He is your boy, not mine and they are your decisions to make. I just prefer to explain my reasoning behind my thinking, not just give opinions.

Honestly, for lunging, I would not stand in the middle of the circle. I would lunge him loose, just a cavesson and I would walk a circle with him. So, rather than be 15ft away from him, I would be 8ft away from him to start. Just walking an inner circle with him walking an outer circle. This means your body can be his comfort for a while, but a comfort that has no influence on his head, neck or movement. After a few sessions, step back to being 10ft away, then 12ft and eventually he will be fine to move around you just stood in the middle. The confidence this builds will mean that all the work he does, he does having to balance himself. Working with the gadgets means he can never do this for himself. Working without the gadgets will be a longer journey, you're probably looking at 3 months at least of lunging like this 3-4 times a week at 15-20 minutes a time before you see the improvements clearly BUT, those improvements will have set him up with solid foundations of independent balance, one of the most important things a horse can have.

You've seen it with your other horse. You can have all sorts of issues and problems but time and good techniques can mean drastic changes :)
 
SpanishNeddy said:
This is the rider you like on my other PRE. This PRE I was advised a few years ago to put to sleep! he had severe blind panic bolting issues and was very problematic indeed. Messed up in Spain. The same rider schooled him 5 days a week for 18 months and the horse now competes at county level ! winning and has many champ titles to his name now. She did fab job with him.

Yes he can be tense still, but you have to remember the above so even competing at Hartpury is a massive achievement for him, I'm so proud of him.

A few videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB3hzQkjKG8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjWNNW193P0
Click to expand...

Firstly, that tail is amazing.

Secondly, what a good boy to behave so well when the horse in front had a bell end moment.

Thirdly, I have a feeling he is constantly saying, " MUM....I WANNA CANTER!!!!!!" lol.

He's lovely and well done to all involved :)
 
JingleSmells said:
I have liked all the riders apart from the first video. I hope you tell your friend who hasn't ridden for two years what I thought in my post about that video as it's amazing to ride like that after 2 year out of the saddle :)

As for the lunging, yes, I would stick with it without any gadgets. Actually, as I think I mentioned before, I wouldn't bother lunging for a while and just hack and school lightly, mainly straight lines, using diagonals etc. rather than too many circles. When you do lunge though, as well need to sometimes and when you do start it regularly again (of course you don't have to follow my advice, just saying it as if you do) I would not introduce canter on the lunge until he was able to cope properly with walk and trot. He's a big boy as you say, so even using the whole width of the school, given his workload this year, it is a big ask of him to be balanced in canter on a circle like that. Of course he is better in side reins or a pessoa...he can use them as a balancing tool. They excuse him from having to try and find his own balance. Unfortunately, as with the ridden work, it is a vicious cycle. The more he relies on something or someone else for balance, the less likely he is to actually pick himself up and start working properly.

Now, just because I say I think he is leaning on the gadgets/hands to balance himself doesn't mean he has to do it in a literal sense. Put a person on a narrow bridge 200ft over a canyon and ask them to walk it I guarantee they will walk it twice as fast if there is a handrail...even though they may just have their hand hovering over it, not actually using it. The fact is, it is there if it is needed and the confidence that gives is what makes the difference. It is physically no different to walking down the street, the person is perfectly capable of doing it with or without the handrail, but the handrails presence gives the psychological advantage of confidence.

Now...put that in terms of your horse and when he is running around the field, he is fine. He can probably canter super tight circles without losing balance and move as freely as the wind, but not when ridden. When ridden there is an element of doubt. Just as the doubt for the person on the bridge is the 200ft drop below them, the doubt for your boy is the rider on his back or the combination of listening to you, staying on a constant circle, with a rope holding him there. The hands or gadgets that keep him in place, whether he always uses them or they just act as a psychological crutch, will prevent him from ever figuring it out for himself.

He will get it. Obviously this is just my opinion and I give it whether you wish to use it or not I don't mind either way. He is your boy, not mine and they are your decisions to make. I just prefer to explain my reasoning behind my thinking, not just give opinions.

Honestly, for lunging, I would not stand in the middle of the circle. I would lunge him loose, just a cavesson and I would walk a circle with him. So, rather than be 15ft away from him, I would be 8ft away from him to start. Just walking an inner circle with him walking an outer circle. This means your body can be his comfort for a while, but a comfort that has no influence on his head, neck or movement. After a few sessions, step back to being 10ft away, then 12ft and eventually he will be fine to move around you just stood in the middle. The confidence this builds will mean that all the work he does, he does having to balance himself. Working with the gadgets means he can never do this for himself. Working without the gadgets will be a longer journey, you're probably looking at 3 months at least of lunging like this 3-4 times a week at 15-20 minutes a time before you see the improvements clearly BUT, those improvements will have set him up with solid foundations of independent balance, one of the most important things a horse can have.

You've seen it with your other horse. You can have all sorts of issues and problems but time and good techniques can mean drastic changes :)
Click to expand...

All makes total sense to me!

Just one question, if having him closer to me when lunging.....is that not making him work harder? as further away is obviously less work.

I do know when he is closer he moves better, but I have always sent him further away because I thought the tighter the circle the harder the work? please correct me!!
 
JingleSmells said:
Firstly, that tail is amazing.

Secondly, what a good boy to behave so well when the horse in front had a bell end moment.

Thirdly, I have a feeling he is constantly saying, " MUM....I WANNA CANTER!!!!!!" lol.

He's lovely and well done to all involved :)
Click to expand...

Haha yes his tail is amazing, he has a fabulous mane too. Here it is:



I know amazing - a few years ago he could not even be ridden in the school at home with another horse let alone this.

His canter is his best pace, love it.

Very proud of him, as you can tell LOL.
 
SpanishNeddy said:
All makes total sense to me!

Just one question, if having him closer to me when lunging.....is that not making him work harder? as further away is obviously less work.

I do know when he is closer he moves better, but I have always sent him further away because I thought the tighter the circle the harder the work? please correct me!!
Click to expand...

No, he is on a big circle, you just move closer to him, so you are x amount of feet away from him and you walk the inner circle. Eg, he is on a 20m circle, you are on a 13m circle walking with him. :)
 
JingleSmells said:
No, he is on a big circle, you just move closer to him, so you are x amount of feet away from him and you walk the inner circle. Eg, he is on a 20m circle, you are on a 13m circle walking with him. :)
Click to expand...

Oh yes I see - I actually do that at the moment. I always lunge them moving around the school, so they use the whole school (if that makes sense). But yes will defo do this.

I have now got my vet coming to check him tomorrow at lunch time. Have told them to bring xray machine too. I would rather get him checked out to satisfy myself that all is ok (or not if the case may be!).
 
Do you have anybody near to you who has experience with Spanish horses and the way they move? To me he just looks like a horse being ridden too fast, unbalanced, and stiff, not lame. Of course it is always good to check out any issues with shoeing and if in doubt have a vet check him over, but I would say that riding him in an appropriate (slower and more forward) rhythm and a secure contact would sort out 90% of the tripping. Spanish horses, especially over sized ones like him, need helpful riding, not loose reins and running out of the tempo.
 
Cortez said:
Do you have anybody near to you who has experience with Spanish horses and the way they move? To me he just looks like a horse being ridden too fast, unbalanced, and stiff, not lame. Of course it is always good to check out any issues with shoeing and if in doubt have a vet check him over, but I would say that riding him in an appropriate (slower and more forward) rhythm and a secure contact would sort out 90% of the tripping. Spanish horses, especially over sized ones like him, need helpful riding, not loose reins and running out of the tempo.
Click to expand...

You've just summed up my many posts in one short, concise one, lol :)
 
Cortez said:
Do you have anybody near to you who has experience with Spanish horses and the way they move? To me he just looks like a horse being ridden too fast, unbalanced, and stiff, not lame. Of course it is always good to check out any issues with shoeing and if in doubt have a vet check him over, but I would say that riding him in an appropriate (slower and more forward) rhythm and a secure contact would sort out 90% of the tripping. Spanish horses, especially over sized ones like him, need helpful riding, not loose reins and running out of the tempo.
Click to expand...

Thanks Cortez. The yard I have just moved from is a PRE specialist yard (with about 50 PRE's and Luso's). My new yard I am at now (a dressage yard) picked up on his forelimbs as a concern, saying that a horse his size with such good hind action, should have better and bigger movement in front and to them it looks like he is struggling for some reason to use his shoulder. This was their analysis from him on the lunge. As said above previously, I have always had this exact concern since I got him but nobody has ever flagged it as an issue to me.......other than just saying it's probably because he is green / you / huge and an oaf!

It was very hard to make a judgement at my previous yards because he REALLY struggled on their school surfaces. His tripping has got better, since his feet are getting there (VERY long in the toe with no heel when I got him, farrier said last week they are now 70% there).

My old yard (iberian yard) did not say anything to me about him being an issue. However, sometimes he starts off all over the place and feels awful then after a good warm up he feels good and goes much better. Although this is my opinion and I'm riding him (so I don't have a video this is just going on my 'feel'). I do think a lot of it is what you have said, as he does go much better with better riders. I had a friend ride him once, she is competing at PSG and Inter 1 at the moment and he looked great with her (no video of that sorry). She just said he needs to go forward forward forward! and not to worry about his head.

At my previous yard he was in a small stable for his size and was in 24/7 (he did go in sand lunge pen once a day for an hour but only stood around). So could he just be stiff? he is only 5 though, surely he shouldnt be stiff at his age LOL! but I guess if he is that huge and not doing anything he would be.

Glad you said about loose reins as I was advised to drop contact but I went against that as he much prefers you to have a contact otherwise he is all over the place.
 
JingleSmells said:
Do let us know how it goes. Fingers crossed xx
Click to expand...

I will do thank you. Any suggestions on anything in particular to ask for? I've told vet to bring x ray machine. I think I want front feet x rayed. Obviously I will lunge him for the vet and he will likely pick up on the forelimbs then.

I decided to get the vet as I moved him to a dressage yard to crack on with him. I want to check if there are any issues before we commence crack on LOL! I hope it is training only and what you guys think.

Is it really possible for them to have such an active hind and rubbish front? just never would have thought that. Always been the other way round with others ive had.
 
Another thing I should point out.

I rode him for the first time on Monday at new yard. Well I lunged first, as first time in new arena! he was very silly and excited and distracted by EVERYTHING and this did = some tripping on the lunge.

I then rode him (only at walk as he was not relaxed and a lot for him to take in) and he was VERY forward going (usually very lazy and if you did boot him one he would stop!) and I had to take leg totally off. Obviously new arena (plus it is blimin HUGE and he has not even been in a 60x20 before). Anyway, he did not trip once the whole time. He was very stressed (he chomps on bit hard when stressed, he did this a lot when I first rode him after his arrival from spain) and not relaxed but I guess he was concerntrating more as new place etc and on edge, therefore no tripping.
 
SpanishNeddy said:
Thanks Cortez. The yard I have just moved from is a PRE specialist yard (with about 50 PRE's and Luso's). My new yard I am at now (a dressage yard) picked up on his forelimbs as a concern, saying that a horse his size with such good hind action, should have better and bigger movement in front and to them it looks like he is struggling for some reason to use his shoulder. This was their analysis from him on the lunge. As said above previously, I have always had this exact concern since I got him but nobody has ever flagged it as an issue to me.......other than just saying it's probably because he is green / you / huge and an oaf!

It was very hard to make a judgement at my previous yards because he REALLY struggled on their school surfaces. His tripping has got better, since his feet are getting there (VERY long in the toe with no heel when I got him, farrier said last week they are now 70% there).

My old yard (iberian yard) did not say anything to me about him being an issue. However, sometimes he starts off all over the place and feels awful then after a good warm up he feels good and goes much better. Although this is my opinion and I'm riding him (so I don't have a video this is just going on my 'feel'). I do think a lot of it is what you have said, as he does go much better with better riders. I had a friend ride him once, she is competing at PSG and Inter 1 at the moment and he looked great with her (no video of that sorry). She just said he needs to go forward forward forward! and not to worry about his head.

At my previous yard he was in a small stable for his size and was in 24/7 (he did go in sand lunge pen once a day for an hour but only stood around). So could he just be stiff? he is only 5 though, surely he shouldnt be stiff at his age LOL! but I guess if he is that huge and not doing anything he would be.

Glad you said about loose reins as I was advised to drop contact but I went against that as he much prefers you to have a contact otherwise he is all over the place.
Click to expand...

So, on a yard full of people familiar with Iberians, nobody thought there was a problem. On a yard familiar (correct me if I am wrong) with warmbloods and TB x types, people have mentioned his movement not being right? Iberians do not move the same as big flashy warmbloods. The biggest issue I have ever faced when teaching clients that go out and but an Iberian is that the horse is judged against what the rider knows of other horses, not what the rider knows of Iberians. They are inherently different. Iberians also easily give the appearance of being on the forehand if they are not well muscled and working in a higher frame as so much of their body mass is in front of the girth.

SpanishNeddy said:
I will do thank you. Any suggestions on anything in particular to ask for? I've told vet to bring x ray machine. I think I want front feet x rayed. Obviously I will lunge him for the vet and he will likely pick up on the forelimbs then.

I decided to get the vet as I moved him to a dressage yard to crack on with him. I want to check if there are any issues before we commence crack on LOL! I hope it is training only and what you guys think.

Is it really possible for them to have such an active hind and rubbish front? just never would have thought that. Always been the other way round with others ive had.
Click to expand...

I would ask for the vet to assess generally and then go from there. To be perfectly honest SN, I do not think that this is a physical issue as I have said in previous posts. I think this is a horse that just needs the correct, consistent work. My concern in light of the post above is that if you have riders schooling him for you that are not familiar with the breed, it may not help him at all. Do you know who will be schooling him and what experience they have in working through issues of this type with horses of this type? My concern would be that 90% of riders hired to school someones horse will have an emphasis on looking good to impress the client and that is NOT what your boy needs. He needs someone who can find the balance between consistent contact and allowing the head enough to encourage the horse to self balance. That's not an easy thing to do.

SpanishNeddy said:
Another thing I should point out.

I rode him for the first time on Monday at new yard. Well I lunged first, as first time in new arena! he was very silly and excited and distracted by EVERYTHING and this did = some tripping on the lunge.

I then rode him (only at walk as he was not relaxed and a lot for him to take in) and he was VERY forward going (usually very lazy and if you did boot him one he would stop!) and I had to take leg totally off. Obviously new arena (plus it is blimin HUGE and he has not even been in a 60x20 before). Anyway, he did not trip once the whole time. He was very stressed (he chomps on bit hard when stressed, he did this a lot when I first rode him after his arrival from spain) and not relaxed but I guess he was concerntrating more as new place etc and on edge, therefore no tripping.
Click to expand...

So when he's excited and thinking forward, he doesn't trip? Nothing more needs to be said on that I don't think.
Well, I'll just say that when you can get him motivated to want to work with you (or any rider) and interested in his work, you may well find the same.
Glad you had a ride though, bet it felt great :)

It would be easier probably if there was something physical, because that will no doubt be easier to treat and recover from than undoing the training he had in Spain and retraining him to balance, lift and push forward.

Why do I find these type threads so flippin interesting?? ;)
 
I think you are doing the right thing getting the vet .
Even if they find nothing today they have that as the start point if something is brewing under the surface when it surfaces the vet has a start point to compare against .
I would trot up lunge and the soft and a hard surface .
And from what you have posted I would block out one foot even if was just to put my mind at rest .
 
OP - I think the fact that he's a big young horse who has spent so much time in confined spaces means that he will be pretty weak all round and poss stiff too (I know none of that was your fault:)). They can look strong but actually be very weak and uncoordinated. I am in the camp that says schooling/growing issue rather than physical prob but I have no experience of Iberian and am v. interested to hear what vet says. Please keep us posted...
 
Really interesting thread.

His action is similar to one of mine who turned out to have spavins. I've been told by several vets that prolonged stabling can really aggravate very mild arthritic changes that might otherwise have not been an issue.

I do think a lameness work up and maybe a visit from a good physio are on the cards. He looks as though his movement in front is being restricted but this could just be lack of balance as others have said.

I think you answered the question raised about him tripping yourself when you said he doesn't do it with the pro rider or when he's more focused.
 
JingleSmells said:
So, on a yard full of people familiar with Iberians, nobody thought there was a problem. On a yard familiar (correct me if I am wrong) with warmbloods and TB x types, people have mentioned his movement not being right? Iberians do not move the same as big flashy warmbloods. The biggest issue I have ever faced when teaching clients that go out and but an Iberian is that the horse is judged against what the rider knows of other horses, not what the rider knows of Iberians. They are inherently different. Iberians also easily give the appearance of being on the forehand if they are not well muscled and working in a higher frame as so much of their body mass is in front of the girth.



I would ask for the vet to assess generally and then go from there. To be perfectly honest SN, I do not think that this is a physical issue as I have said in previous posts. I think this is a horse that just needs the correct, consistent work. My concern in light of the post above is that if you have riders schooling him for you that are not familiar with the breed, it may not help him at all. Do you know who will be schooling him and what experience they have in working through issues of this type with horses of this type? My concern would be that 90% of riders hired to school someones horse will have an emphasis on looking good to impress the client and that is NOT what your boy needs. He needs someone who can find the balance between consistent contact and allowing the head enough to encourage the horse to self balance. That's not an easy thing to do.



So when he's excited and thinking forward, he doesn't trip? Nothing more needs to be said on that I don't think.
Well, I'll just say that when you can get him motivated to want to work with you (or any rider) and interested in his work, you may well find the same.
Glad you had a ride though, bet it felt great :)

It would be easier probably if there was something physical, because that will no doubt be easier to treat and recover from than undoing the training he had in Spain and retraining him to balance, lift and push forward.

Why do I find these type threads so flippin interesting?? ;)
Click to expand...

Thank you, you have been so helpful, appreciated.

Agree with regards to people not knowing the breed. They are more familiar as you say with WB etc. However they have had a few iberians there and trained them, so do have some experience of them. When my other boy had his issues a lady schooling him at the time (not for very long I might add, she kept falling off!) made me get the vet to check him, as she was unsure of his movement.......after SEVERAL conversations explaining the PRE movement (she was always going on about him not over tracking, well as you know this is what iberians REALLY struggle with even at GP level). Anyway I did get the vet and thankfully my vet confirmed it was his breed. However months later he was diagnosed with PSD in both hinds (that's another story LOL!).

So do not worry, I will be making sure the vet is aware of their movement differences and making sure it is not just that! (they have experience with iberians so should be fine).

With regards to the rider that is helping schooling him, she does have experience with them. I will make it clear what my expectations are. I have already told her she is NOT to use any gagets / flash noseband (only to use my tack) and defo no draw reins on anything.

Yes was lovely to get on him. I am proud of myself! months ago I was such a wuss - my confidence from my other PRE was totally lost. He is so sharp and forward thinking and couple with his issues and me falling off him a lot, just really knocked it out of me. But new boy has been such a darling, only 5 but he looks after me! (should be the other way round eh LOL).
 
Goldenstar said:
I think you are doing the right thing getting the vet .
Even if they find nothing today they have that as the start point if something is brewing under the surface when it surfaces the vet has a start point to compare against .
I would trot up lunge and the soft and a hard surface .
And from what you have posted I would block out one foot even if was just to put my mind at rest .
Click to expand...

Thanks! will do
 
Turks said:
OP - I think the fact that he's a big young horse who has spent so much time in confined spaces means that he will be pretty weak all round and poss stiff too (I know none of that was your fault:)). They can look strong but actually be very weak and uncoordinated. I am in the camp that says schooling/growing issue rather than physical prob but I have no experience of Iberian and am v. interested to hear what vet says. Please keep us posted...
Click to expand...

Agree - exactly what my OH says. I will do!
 
tabithakat64 said:
Really interesting thread.

His action is similar to one of mine who turned out to have spavins. I've been told by several vets that prolonged stabling can really aggravate very mild arthritic changes that might otherwise have not been an issue.

I do think a lameness work up and maybe a visit from a good physio are on the cards. He looks as though his movement in front is being restricted but this could just be lack of balance as others have said.

I think you answered the question raised about him tripping yourself when you said he doesn't do it with the pro rider or when he's more focused.
Click to expand...

Ahhhhhh what is spavins??? sounds bad.

I am really worried about DJD! I really should not go onto google!
 
How old is he OP? He really reminds me of my 5YO andalusian! Very fussy with contact and slightly off-balance! ...Iberians are extremely sensitive and hot headed, even if they aren't necessary sharp and off the leg, they're very sensitive in their movements and carriage, almost slightly erratic, hense needing a calm, quiet, balanced rider. Although he may look very on the fore-hand, I guarantee he is super light in the hand (they give the impression to being on the fore-hand, but they're not, they're just super powerful in front) Iberians also take a lot longer to "mature", a bit like the warmblood, around 7/8 you find they really blossom and grow into their own!

OP have you tried a Micklem bridle? I am yet to try one, but they are supposed to be great for our breed of horses.

Edited to say I agree with a poster above RE not a physical problem (I'm no vet though, so I can't guarantee), but I see a young, in-experienced horse that just needs correct, consistent training. As I said above, they are a very different breed of horse and you almost have to train them the opposite as you would a warmblood!
 
Last edited:
MS123 said:
How old is he OP? He really reminds me of my 5YO andalusian! Very fussy with contact and slightly off-balance! ...Iberians are extremely sensitive and hot headed, even if they aren't necessary sharp and off the leg, they're very sensitive in their movements and carriage, almost slightly erratic, hense needing a calm, quiet, balanced rider. Although he may look very on the fore-hand, I guarantee he is super light in the hand! Iberians also take a lot longer to "mature", a bit like the warmblood, around 7/8 you find they really blossom and grow into their own!

OP have you tried a Micklem bridle? I am yet to try one, but they are supposed to be great for our breed of horses.
Click to expand...

He is 5 years old. But not done anything bless him. Well thankfully, was hard finding something in Spain that didn't know piaffe at 5 LOL!

Yes he is very fussy in the mouth but very light in the hand you are right.

My other PRE was the same, now a few years later you can take a nice contact and he is fine. He is now 8 and at his best at the moment, doing so well. My other one is hot headed and sensitive though (not like this one, he is laid back and not spooky).

No I have not tried the Micklem, I have heard the same as well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top