Biomechanics/bareback position - help/advice pls...

kerilli

kerilli

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For various reasons I'm schooling Katy bareback at the moment, and a friend who is v v experienced, has known my riding style for decades, & has a great eye for such things, has commented that my position is MUCH better bareback. Instead of tipping forward (my lifelong problem, arrrgggghhhh), without a saddle I naturally stay totally upright in the torso, without having to keep trying to remind myself 'shoulders back', 'dazzle don't dip' etc etc. Considering I haven't ridden bareback for years, and I'm balancing on a polypad & prolite (cos Katy has a spine like a stegosaurus), without a surcingle, I guess that's good news. Ish.
So...
Why would this be? The tipping forward problem is there in dressage saddles (I have 3 diff ones), jump (a couple) and GP, so it's not a particular saddle that does it to me.
Any help/advice much appreciated.
I can post a vid if anyone really wants to see it, or even 2 vids to show the difference... it's weird, because my leg position looks pretty much the same, my pelvis looks as if it is at the same angle etc, but my torso does totally different things if I don't have a saddle.
btw, trying Solution Saddles next Saturday, v excited about that...
(oh, to give you all a laugh - I had such fun schooling Katy like this at stupid o'clock this morning before the rain came, that I decided to do the same with silly spooky Ellie, somehow forgetting that there's a reason I don't ride her bareback, let alone balanced on an anky pad + prolite... sure enough, 10 minutes in, in walk, she did her trademark Extreme Evasive Manoevre - super-spook and major sidewaysness at an imaginary herd of dragons behind a blade of grass... and my head and shoulders stayed perfectly central above her as the saddlepads and my bum slid inexorably off her... she's not the sort to cope with a desperate klingon so I let go of everything immediately and flopped off. She did have the grace to look extremely surprised to see me on the floor, since she's done 1000x worse before and I've managed to stay on every time. So, first fall finally over with since doing my knee, and it didn't hurt at all. yay!)
Hot choc with Baileys in it and Cadbury's Twirls (cos it's that sort of night) to anyone who's got this far.
btw, I was wearing a Berghaus down-filled gilet and jacket when I fell off, and obviously the air encapsulated in them protected me hugely from the impact... they definitely saved me from serious injury since I didn't even feel myself hit the ground, from nearly 17h up... I wonder if they'll sponsor me... *whistles* ;) ;)
 
I've no idea, only to say that my Barefoot treeless saddle does make me sit a lot straighter than any other saddle I've had. That said, I only ride one horse, so have limited experience of different horses/saddles.

You might find the solutions saddles do the same thing for you? I did look at them, then the price, then got a saddle more suited to my budget (as a one horse owner they're imo pricey but a saddle you can use on four horses is economical if you have four horses ;) )
 
Well, that's what I'm hoping... in fact I booked the Solution Saddles trial ages ago, then was waiting till the girls were fit enough to jump before the actual trial/fitting day, but the position thing definitely adds to their appeal...
very interesting that your Barefoot saddle makes you sit straight too, hmmmm. ta.
 
I find I sit up straighter bareback too - My biggest fault is tipping forwards.

To me it feels like a 'safety' thing, I know that bareback its much easier to wobble off!!
 
Cloball said:
I ride much better bareback I find even my hands :confused: if you find out why please let me know:)
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Yes, I realised immediately that I was keeping my hands soft but locking my inside elbow whenever the horse was daft (which made her worse, of course), something I hadn't noticed when using a saddle, isn't it weird?! Obv the effort to maintain perfect balance without a saddle really concentrates the mind. Hmmm, lots of food for thought.
 
Just to say that if you want a little more security before you have a saddle sorted I have a Total Contact saddle you are welcome to borrow. I'm aware it's rather a Marmite thing, but I have used it happily on several very different horses and as you have stirrups attached it would be interesting to find out whether your tipping is associated with stirrups or not, although I note that your leg position appears not to have changed. TC saddle, if you haven't met it, is basically a leather pad, used with a gel pad or anything else to keep you and the horse comfortable over the spine, with stirrup attachment points.
 
The other thing you might try is a very flat seated racing plate type of saddle - since they do fit anything, being practically nothing! I really find the flatter the saddle, the more you sit up - I've got a flat seat jump and dressage Butet and they are much better for me than the deep seated versions. Incidentally, do you sit up more without your stirrups?
 
that's a really kind offer, thanks D O'D. tbh I think i'll stick to riding Katy bareback (as she's not spooky at all) and stick saddle on Ellie, as I can do without flopping off any time she does her evasive manoevres! Only a week to go, and if I we all like the Solution saddles I'll have one or two on trial for a couple of weeks to be sure... anyway, bareback is so good for my position, and tacking up's nice and quick too!
thanks though, i'll look up the TC.
Must admit I am slightly wary of anything with stirrup bars which is treeless (pressure points in webbing etc, the moment you have downward pressure on stirrup bars and no tree to lift it off spine I do worry), but having sat in Solution saddle at Burghley and watched the pressure pad reacting in real time, I know there's no pressure points from the stirrups...
 
kit, I had a totally flat-seated WOW for a while and tipped forward in that, I rode in a lovely flat Butet and tipped (possibly a bit less than usual, not sure) and I don't think stirrups or not makes any difference at all... hmmm. more videoing requd i think. ta.
 
I noticed that I sit a lot straighter in my Solution Saddle than I did in my treed saddle.

Out if interest do you ride any different without stirrups in a saddle?

Would be interested to see what you think in them. I love mine :)
 
Riding bareback is so good for your position and balance. You sit with the horse and there is nothing to brace against to enable you to tip forward hence the best thing for small children being a felt pad which is the next best thing to being bareback. Sadly with health and safety bareback riding is far less common for the young nowadays. Some of the very good learnt to ride without (Andrew Nicholson wasn't allowed a saddle for hacking in case he fell off and got dragged)!!
Interestingly, Butet have designed a new saddle without flaps and are having very good results with it for teaching a natural position and secure lower leg.
 
GinaGeo said:
I noticed that I sit a lot straighter in my Solution Saddle than I did in my treed saddle.

Out if interest do you ride any different without stirrups in a saddle?

Would be interested to see what you think in them. I love mine :)
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Ah, good to know.

No, I don't think so, will get videoer out again and find out!

I'll definitely do a report about them, really looking forwards to the trial. Ta.
 
I also ride much better bareback, as I do without stirrups also. I did wonder if it was to do with my stirrup length but played around with that and it made no change - also I'm the same whichever saddle im in :) Interesting though!
 
oldvic said:
Riding bareback is so good for your position and balance. You sit with the horse and there is nothing to brace against to enable you to tip forward hence the best thing for small children being a felt pad which is the next best thing to being bareback. Sadly with health and safety bareback riding is far less common for the young nowadays. Some of the very good learnt to ride without (Andrew Nicholson wasn't allowed a saddle for hacking in case he fell off and got dragged)!!
Interestingly, Butet have designed a new saddle without flaps and are having very good results with it for teaching a natural position and secure lower leg.
Click to expand...

Yes, it's the 'not bracing' bit, even though I didn't realise I was.
Right, no more saddles for the next 30 years and I might ride as well as AN... ;) ;)
I saw the flapless Butet photos on their fb page, very very interesting. Would love to try one to see if it helps, since trying to remember to correct such a major fault ALL the time is a nightmare, and if I concentrate on the way the horse is going, I start tipping again.
Hmm, more food for though, thankyou.
 
I always find riding bareback that my position is better, maybe its the wobble off factor but i think its to do with you being able to absorb the horses movement better.
Also after riding the racehorses, my position improved massively, why?
Cos I don't know half the time I was just trying to survive/stay on and not get runaway with!!!(had some real nice ones to ride:D)
I can do whole dressage test without thinking look up, thumbs on top!!
The is trainer in west of ireland who trains his horses bareback...wouldnt fancy that!!
 
I have a theory.....

With a saddle, you get knee rolls. When you are bareback, you don't. Is there a chance you are engaging 'thighs like catapults' (a becky chapman favourite) to keep you back off the horse (and the wither!). This elongates the psoas, which tipping forward is often caused by tight psoas - and i know this because this was a big problem for me!

The other thing is without a tree, your hips are opened much wider than normal, along with the extra concentration, no stirrup bar potentially pulling the leg forward...

Could be lots of things really, couldn't it! Never easy is it, this riding malarky :D
Would love to hear how the solutions saddes fitting goes. I was very impressed when i attended a talk from them last year.

Trina x
 
kerilli said:
Oooh, yes, please Jess, that would be brilliant, definitely do. ta.
Click to expand...

Sure no probs. Funny you should post this today as i rode bareback today for the first time in years, (owner forgot to bring saddle back!!) only hacking but god did i ache and i felt i was sitting quite differently, i think the back of my thighs had a lot more contact with the horse than when wearing a saddle.
 
trina, i had to google 'psoas', never heard of them. all interesting, very very interesting.

Jess, the odd thing is that I expected to ache afterwards but I haven't at all, so it seems I'm not using different muscles etc, but the effects are so different.
back of thighs... hmmm. good point.
 
Psoas muscles are the key to me riding badly and me riding, well, a bit better! lol

http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/html/muscles.html

http://freelanceinstructorsdiary.blogspot.com/2009/06/psoas-muscle-key-to-good-position-and.html

And, (sorry going off topic), when we ride it is the horses psoas muscles that are directly underneath our own psoas muscle.
horse_anatomy.jpg

psoas.jpg


Isn't that fascinating?

Trina x
 
Kerrili, I know how you feel! I am about to start going bareback after we had solution saddles out last week, to teach the YO how to fit a treeless saddle plus let her borrow one so she can decide how they felt and whether they were right for her neddy. Anyway Sailor was a test subject being a rather round coblet and omg it was like riding a different horse! He was so so calm and chilled, his first thought when someone was to first sit on him was run. A friend got on him last weekend and bronced for the first time ever trying to get her off, which is completely unlike him. After yesterday my mind is defo made up that my saddle is useless for him and unfortunatly not sure I'll get a saddle like a solution for any less then a solution. Has anyone got any ideas on what i do whilst saving the £600 deposit? Or anyother treeless saddles that you would recommend for me to try?
 
trina, that is really fascinating... thankyou so much. now i need to work out if mine work or not... ;) ;)

Chellebean, that's very interesting.
tbh with treeless i really do think you get what you pay for... there have been lots of threads in NL on treeless though, might be worth asking in there?
can't wait for the trial now!
 
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It seems people with far more knowledge than me about muscles have already replied to this thread, but I would say bareback (on a TB :eek:) you absolutely have to engage your core, almost certainly subconsciously, whereas with a saddle you don't have to, so your body is probably finding ways to cheat.

Re Solution saddles, I had one a long time ago, I am sure there has been a lot of R&D since, suffice to say horse initially went brilliantly in it but then tailed off slightly, physio reckoned it was the saddle. So speak to your physio/back person maybe once the horses have been in them a few weeks, see what they think too. The pic on fb somewhere of Deco at Osberton I am in one.
 
Chellebean - my Barefoot saddle was recommended and fitted by my chiropracter, who is also a trained saddle fitter. I've ridden in it for 3 years, and as yet hasn't caused any problems, and my horses back and shoulders have filled out really well. I trialled mine for a week from bettersaddles.com so you can always try, get a saddle fitter out to see it and send it back if you don't like :)
 
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