Bit annoyed at this course building!

Ambers Echo

Ambers Echo

Still wittering on
Joined
13 October 2017
Messages
11,959
Visit site
At the recent NSEA SJ competion the 85cm class had a triple as the last combination. There was a water tray under the middle element. Does anyone think that is a bit of an unfair question?

SO many horses stopped there including Max. He had jumped such a lovely, confident round to that point and jumped into the first element on a perfect stride nicely forward. Then he saw the water tray and absolutely slammed on the brakes. Daughter was hurt when she was thrown into the fence. Lots of others fell there too.

A water tray at the first element of a combination or at the 2nd element of a related distance would be fine - gives the pony time to ask a question and the rider time to answer! But this just took Max totally by surprise and there was absoolutely nothing daughter could do to rescue the situation.

My daughter has been out of action since then so Max was ridden by the YO's daughter (a semi-pro show jumper) who said his confidence has been knocked and he is now approaching every jump suspiciously.

Maybe I am just under-estimating what a pony at 80/85 should be confident with. But I have never seen it before so was curious as to what others think.

And also how to help Max other than the obvious take a step or three back and rebuild slowly. Eventually he will need to jump whatever he is presented to regardles of whether it looks odd so how do you teach horses to be bold over unfamiliar fences or things that they see late (ditches etc)?
 
ETA and also do you actually WANT a horse to jump just anything they are presented to, or do you want them to retain a degree of self preservation? Amber refused the other day having locked on. Very uncharacteristic so I was shocked till I saw the YO's dog lying on the ground behind the fence! I am very glad she chose to stop rather than just doing what she was told. I don;t want horses to stop thinking for themselves completely...
 
I do think that is a ridiculous question at that height, but also that the course is there to be walked, and if many people had withdrawn then it *may* have been changed. Even if not that time, then for the future.

Could you write to the venue and express your concerns, especially regarding the number of falls and injury? Nothing beats asking to look at the risk assessment, or a copy of their accident record ;-)


I can think of two BE90s that I withdrew from as they had combinations involving steps that were way outside what the BE90 guidelines recommended, and my horse was not prepped. It was a disappointment as one of the events was a 4 hr drive away (so an 8 hr round trip). I even had 'friends' tell me I was stupid for going home, but then my horse was confident that I would not put him to something he was not able to do.


As for the future, I would not over think it. Have fun without water trays. Do trotting poles and little grids, have a laugh and just allow the horse to enjoy his fun time, keeping each session short and in the cool.
 
Can comment on whether that should be the case but interested in the response as I never thought about where you could have extras (trays or fillers) until recently.

I have a very spooky horse so working on fillers. Recently I took him to a competition where they had a filler as the second part of the double. He jumped in and slammed on brakes. Came round again and got him over. I decided to enter the next height up as we'd jumped it now. However the course builders then moved the filler to the first part of the double as they said fillers should never be on the second part and they were correcting a mistake.

I wasn't aware there were rules where fillers could go but it was a distaster for me as mr spooky came round the corner and said "OMG it's moved" and we had another stop.

There other thing I would say about what you described is coming from a cross country standpoint upright to ditch to upright is a common set up and this is like they are trying to replicate with showjumps.

ETA I don't mind questions at lower heights as with a spooky horse, it's nice to practice on something you can step over from a standstill so I quite like venues that have small scary things otherwise you have plain poles at lower heights and find yourself having to ask the horse to go up a height AND see fillers at the same time but then I have a particular problem to solve.
 
Last edited:
That's a good point Criso - I think they probably were replicating an upright/ditch/upright. At a recent XC clinic we did a ditch to upright but the instructor asked me not to put Amber over the upright/ditch/upright as she wasn't ready for that. And she's bold but we want to keep her that way! I doubt you'd see upright - ditch - upright at BE80T with only 1 or 2 strides between each?

So Red-1, I agree we should have withdrawn. But it was a team competition so it's hard to let the team down by saying no once you have seen the course. I think I underestimated how alarming an unexpected filler/ditch/water can be to a youngish pony. Lesson learnt!
 
Ambers Echo said:
T I doubt you'd see upright - ditch - upright at BE80T with only 1 or 2 strides between each?
Click to expand...

You might not in BE but you when it comes to unaffiliated (sj and xc/ode) all bets are off. I was talking to someone recently about how our pony club (back in the 80s) would go to badminton and then build mini versions of the questions. Talking to someone at the yard whose daughter in in Pony Club this is still the case. She was talking the other day about a Pony Club ODE where the jumps were things you would not be asked to do at BE90.
 
Ambers Echo said:
So Red-1, I agree we should have withdrawn. But it was a team competition so it's hard to let the team down by saying no once you have seen the course. I think I underestimated how alarming an unexpected filler/ditch/water can be to a youngish pony. Lesson learnt!
Click to expand...

I'm not a jumper but as I set up my schools NSEA I couldn't imagine many of the people I took withdrawing! When you are in a team/representing a school it adds extra pressure. Plus it is a kids competition and no matter how good a rider they are the likelyhood is they do not have the competition experience to say no. Parents do not always have the competition experience to help advise either.

The last jumping competition I did had a water tray in but not part of a combination. I was only doing the 70-80cm round as a bit of fun but I know a lot of people had complained it was unfair. My friends who had bullied me in to entering didn't want to tell me it was unfair until after in case it put me off!
 
madamebonnie said:
I set up my schools NSEA I couldn't imagine many of the people I took withdrawing! When you are in a team/representing a school it adds extra pressure. Plus it is a kids competition and no matter how good a rider they are the likelyhood is they do not have the competition experience to say no. Parents do not always have the competition experience to help advise either!
Click to expand...

I am team manager for our NSEA team - I set it up as there wasn't one at our school. We are pretty near Manchester. The event was held at Beaver Hall in Staffordshire if you know it. I agee it is very hard to withdraw when you are a team member and representing the school and trying to qualify for Championship Finals.
 
Ambers Echo said:
I am team manager for our NSEA team - I set it up as there wasn't one at our school. We are pretty near Manchester. The event was held at Beaver Hall in Staffordshire if you know it. I agee it is very hard to withdraw when you are a team member and representing the school and trying to qualify for Championship Finals.
Click to expand...

I have been to Beaver Hall once...Originally from the other side of the Pennines so only really just getting to know the local area. Its tough competition at the NSEA things because there are so few chances. Maybe there are more these days...I don't want to think it's been 10 years since I set the team up!
 
Fillers should be at the first part of a combination.

That said, I’ve just had a course built by an FEI course designer and he’s put a hanging filler under number 9 and then the water trays under 10 which related but on a dogleg - I must ask him about it when I see him next but I’m guessing it’s because they’re not closely related
 
Last edited:
Part of the problem is that water trays are only mandatory at newcomers and above. They should be the norm around much smaller and unaff tracks, then horses and riders would be much more used to them
 
I would not have objected to a water tray at the start of the combination or on a related distance. but I think putting it in the middle of a triple is a pretty unfair question at 80/85cm comp for kids!
 
I definitely wouldn't have been impressed at a water tray in the middle of a treble.....

Is your poor daughter able to get back on soon?

Fiona
 
Fiona said:
I definitely wouldn't have been impressed at a water tray in the middle of a treble.....

Is your poor daughter able to get back on soon?

Fiona
Click to expand...

Yes she is much better. It was only soft tissue damage. The damage to her confidence may last longer though:(
 
Quadro said:
Part of the problem is that water trays are only mandatory at newcomers and above. They should be the norm around much smaller and unaff tracks, then horses and riders would be much more used to them
Click to expand...

This is the first proper season with the Throughtwat so interesting to see how UA courses vary.

One local riding club puts the water tray in for the 85cm as a standalone fence but not the 75cm. Others clearly don't have a water tray. Some don't have any combinations and advertise this to attract novices. Others that are qualifiers have to have at a certain amount of doubles and spreads.

You never see trebles which were at every little show when I was a kid, I quite like them.

Many venues don't really have qualified or experienced course builders, my bugbear is getting the distance wrong for a one stride double.
 
I certainly had plenty of water trays at unaffiliated, always under single fences.
I'm not sure I ever jumped a treble.
come the end of our competing I gave up going to a lot of the local shows as the course building was appalling and on occasion borderline dangerous with half stride doubles, so I started to only jump at centres where I knew they would build appropriately.

If the course builder can't build a one stride double, or work out which rail is supposed to have the collapsible cup (or how to put them together again when they've broken) I didn't have much confidence in them!
 
criso said:
You might not in BE but you when it comes to unaffiliated (sj and xc/ode) all bets are off. I was talking to someone recently about how our pony club (back in the 80s) would go to badminton and then build mini versions of the questions. Talking to someone at the yard whose daughter in in Pony Club this is still the case. She was talking the other day about a Pony Club ODE where the jumps were things you would not be asked to do at BE90.
Click to expand...

Gosh yes. I used to take my horse to local Pony Club ODEs with a Riding Club class and most of us would be riding young/novice horses and sometimes the courses were horrendous. Combinations with pony strides, jumping a huge upright into shady woodland, and one course in particular where one fence would be small, followed by something huge - and I wasn't the only person who thought the same as a local "professional" event rider and I complained.

OP, I think the same as you that it was a bit much for the level, but maybe have a good training session with a water tray at home?
 
Ambers Echo said:
I doubt you'd see upright - ditch - upright at BE80T with only 1 or 2 strides between each?
Click to expand...

At Keysoe BE last weekend the 80T class had a full coffin. About two horse strides between what was an upright rail/branch, ditch then identical upright rail/branch. I thought it was fantastic as it’s teaching how to safely tackle a very common cross country combination before you move up. The 90 which I rode had a log to a ditch then a sharp right turn to a ‘skinny’ brush, more technical than the BE80. Then again I do feel strongly that the ‘T’ should mean courses are smaller versions of the other classes and feature all the same elements (skinny, coffin, water, corner etc).

As for a water tray in the second part of a treble, that does sound rather unfair. Most leagues have guidelines on what is and isn’t allowed, does NSEA not? That said if you do pony club I’m surprised the NSEA course wasn’t simple in comparison, therefore I think you must have a good perspective. All PC events round here always have wild and wacky SJing and the XC is over anything they can find :p
 
Last edited:
According to the NESA rules, any show jumping competiton should be run under BS rules, so one assumes that includes course design?
 
teapot said:
According to the NESA rules, any show jumping competiton should be run under BS rules, so one assumes that includes course design?
Click to expand...

Yes that is what I thought. But I can't find anything on what type of jumps can be included at what levels the way BE does.
 
Ambers Echo said:
ETA and also do you actually WANT a horse to jump just anything they are presented to, or do you want them to retain a degree of self preservation? Amber refused the other day having locked on. Very uncharacteristic so I was shocked till I saw the YO's dog lying on the ground behind the fence! I am very glad she chose to stop rather than just doing what she was told. I don;t want horses to stop thinking for themselves completely...
Click to expand...

At the end of the day your daughter didnt have to jump the course, so although yes I do think it is pretty mean to have this in an 80cm course (I actually cant think of any situation where Ive seen this in any course Ive done bigger than this). In response to your query above - personally I do expect my horses to jump whatever I face them at, which they do through trust. But thats trust that I would never over face them or ask them to jump anything dangerous. In this case, it sounds like your daughters horse probably just took surprise or didnt understand the question which is a different thing altogether, I dont think self preservation has anything to do with it. I guess you just have to be aware that you never have to jump a course that you think isn't right. I have queried badly built or dodgy courses with the judge or organiser and usually they have amended it prior to anyone starting!
 
Rowreach said:
That was a few years ago now :) But if you want a brave horse, get one that's done the Irish hunter trial circuit, you would not believe what they jump :D
Click to expand...


Yes it said 90's in one of the comments but saddleoversofa's comments about their local pc using whatever they can find made me think of it.
 
IMO, yes it is a very mean thing to put in an NSEA 80cm course. But I've seen plenty of rail-ditch-rail combinations, and step up-rail-step down in XC at that level (unaff and pony club), which perhaps it was meant to be mimicking? Water trays are also something I'd expect a horse or pony competing at that height to jump confidently, once they're used to them I've not known many who have had any issues with them, and many find them much less spooky than fillers in my experience. And others are right when they say that you see all sorts of wacky stuff at PC, especially XC, and that is recently too!
 
I compete in an arena event that runs along side a NSEA competition and it always includes a fence, water tray, fence combination in the 80. The organiser is a bs course builder. I actually find them ok to jump
 
Rowreach said:
That was a few years ago now :) But if you want a brave horse, get one that's done the Irish hunter trial circuit, you would not believe what they jump :D
Click to expand...

Ha ha!! I used to work in Ireland backing and bringing on youngsters, the Hunter Trials, and occasional drag hunt I took 4yr olds on were insane!!!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top