Bit for an impossibly strong pony out hunting

RobinHood

RobinHood

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My sister's had her pony for nearly 6 years now, they've evented up to BE novice, competed in the burghley event pony and been in all the pony club teams so she knows him inside out. The only thing she still struggles with is holding him out hunting as all his manners and schooling go out the window and all he wants to do is gallop into the next county.

I've hunted him myself and couldn't straighten my arms for a week! He stands perfectly, and is no trouble when walking or trotting, and he's manageable at a slow canter, but once everything speeds up he just sets his neck, and he's off. He ends up shredding the sides of his mouth which then swell up both sides the size of a grape which makes us feel really guilty.

Bits we've tried (all with a grackle noseband):

Waterford 3 ring - this is what he goes xc in and he respects it so much you could trot round if you want to. However on the hunting field it might as well be a happy moputh straught bar, he just completely ignores it.

American gag (fixed and not fixed) - too strong whilst walking and trotting (could barely touch it) but again completely ignored requests to stop once cantering!

Tom thumb gag - hopeless, no brakes whatsoever

Pelham with 2 reins - ran striaght through it

Myler combination - my sister described that experience as 'horrific'

Hackamoore (german and english) - might as well have been a headcollar

Hackamoore and bit - again completely ignored it

Double bridle - yet again just ignored it!

kineton noseband band (with all of the above bits - made the situation worse as it limited the amount you could pull!

drop noseband - he just stretched it

We've tried being at the very front and being at the very back, but he still thinks it's a race and never gives up pulling. She says she's tried letting him have the reins and her not pulling at all, but he kept shifting up the gears until he was going flat out. She's tried giving and taking alternately left and right, but he just accelerates each time you give. She's tried fixing one hand on his withers and giving and taking with the other rein. She's tried pulling his head round to one side and she's tried bridging her reins.

You're probably wondering why we don't just give up. The pony is 20 now and he's pretty much retired from eventing, so we feel he's earned a few seasons hunting as he loves it so much. Our plan is to try taking him as often as we can manage to see if he settles better, but first we need to find some better brakes as he's an embarrassment at the moment. Other than the refusal to stop once cantering, he stands when asked, doesn't kick, opens and shuts gates, jumps everything in his path and has given the fieldmaster a lead on many occasions so we really want to get this sorted.

Any suggestions??

 
Try a controller noseband? A bit stronger than a normal one... quite often they will pull the more you give them to pull against.... I would try a controller and something like a happy mouth american gag...
 
Out of interest why are you trying to stop? Surely so long as you don't go ahead of the huntsman and you have control in front of a fence (which you probably do as most fences get bottle necked so you have a few minutes wait before you jump) why not just let his mouth go? To be honest horses are herd animals and most horses would fight if you were trying to stop them galloping with the group... from what you say (and the amount of bits that have failed to work) I wonder if you are trying to control him too much when out hunting and all the pulling is deadening his mouth?
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In line with the above I would recommend trying a pee wee bit, or finding one you have steering with and that he responds to generally and then stop testing your brakes whilst the rest of the hunt are galloping and stop when they do
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the best brakes i have ever found so far, as i've said on here quite a lot, are the cosquocero pelham. i've got a 5" one that i won't be using for a year and a half if you want to borrow. my silly-strong mare (who i'd tried about 20 diff bits in) was a delight to ride xc in it.
 
The best brakes on the hunting field I used to find was the bum of a big hunter that you know doesn't kick. Sorry this probably doesn't help much.
 
[ QUOTE ]
The best brakes on the hunting field I used to find was the bum of a big hunter that you know doesn't kick. Sorry this probably doesn't help much.

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And those of us on big hunters really thank you for using our horses backsides as a stopping post
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Best way to start a horse wanting to kick, IMHO, is people like you using them as brakes.

In answer to your question OP, which Myler combi did you try? Some of them are pretty harsh so maybe worth trying another. Might also be worth trying to do some research about that strange bitting combination one of the SJers or eventers used last year (I'm sure I saw it on the Hickstead coverage on TV...2 bits/combinations used together). Sorry that last bit isn't much help is it...I will rack my brains and try to remember who it was but they had something very very strong in.

Will the horse stop when everything else stops? If so, can she just leave him to it? My big strong boy fights all day long to be at the front but as long as I leave him to it (whilst gritting my teeth and praying!!
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), he does stop when everything else stops and knows his job.
 
It is my pony. I wish to stop as I do go past the field master - a whole field past! And he is at his worst in front of a fence! He just sees it and goes, overtaking the queue, cutting people up and barging people out the way and it is soooooo embarrassing and i get very dirty looks from people
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Thank you for other bit suggestions!
 
[ QUOTE ]
The best brakes on the hunting field I used to find was the bum of a big hunter that you know doesn't kick. Sorry this probably doesn't help much.

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you risk treading on the horse's heels, can be a nasty injury. also, every horse has a snapping point (ditto riders!) so if you don't mind your horse's front leg being broken by a kick, or having your kneecap smashed (oneof which i saw, the other i was told of) it's a great way to stop.
 
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Will the horse stop when everything else stops?

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Nope, he just careers straight past! I was riding him once in cirencester park down the 4 mile avenue and I got so fed up with him pulling that I just gave him the reins and waited for him to stop of his own accord. Well he just got faster and faster until we reached top speed and eventually I had to give in and attempt to stop because we'd come to the end of the avenue
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The myler combi is a low port with a long shank and he just ran staright through it. His flat bit is a myler comfort snaffle which he loves as he actually has a very sensitive mouth, he just switches into another mode on the hunting field
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Will the horse stop when everything else stops?

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Nope, he just careers straight past! I was riding him once in cirencester park down the 4 mile avenue and I got so fed up with him pulling that I just gave him the reins and waited for him to stop of his own accord. Well he just got faster and faster until we reached top speed and eventually I had to give in and attempt to stop because we'd come to the end of the avenue
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Eeek!
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Not sure what else to suggest!! Hackamore maybe? Totally different action (obviously
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) and it might fox him for a while...

I have a high port slotted cheek kimblewick you'd be welcome to try if you wanted to. My boy hates it but it was excellent for my old pony who was superstrong out hunting.
 
Not a bit recomendation but have you thought of a supplement? I'm not normally one for calming supplements but in that this pony sounds lovely the rest of the time it's clearly not a schooling issue.

My farrier recently recommended a new Irish supplement called "Relax Me" for my friend's nutter pony and it seems very effective. I couldn't quite beleive that we went out for a hack and his little black nose didn't shoot past me when we cantered up the hill. You wouldn't need to feed it all the time, you can just give a loading dose for a few days before you go.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The best brakes on the hunting field I used to find was the bum of a big hunter that you know doesn't kick. Sorry this probably doesn't help much.

[/ QUOTE ]

you risk treading on the horse's heels, can be a nasty injury. also, every horse has a snapping point (ditto riders!) so if you don't mind your horse's front leg being broken by a kick, or having your kneecap smashed (oneof which i saw, the other i was told of) it's a great way to stop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why my big hunter wears a red ribbon... he's on loan and the owners tell me that because he's such a big lad, people tried to use him to stop and now he kicks. I can't imagine that having your horse's leg broken by a big lad like mine would be much fun. And I'd love to see you try to claim on my insurance for your vets fees
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my mums horse was exactly the same out hunting - would fall down ditches rather than stop, the only bit that worked and i know its not the stronest was a Dr Bristol as he couldnt lean down on it like he does on a mullen mouth and then lots of vasiline in the corners of his mouth
 
Spade bit, ratchet strap noseband and really strong arms, barbed wire bit, run him into walls, jab him really hard in the mouth, only joking, but some of the people that advised me wernt!

It occured to me that if getting firmer and firmer wont work then try somthing else - I tried Ken Faulkner and Australian natural horsemanship, it worked for me - I still ride out with a bit, or not depending on what we are doing.

If you have tried getting heavier, stronger, and more aggressive with bits, maybe consider getting softer,
try a bit of one rein riding (cant brace against one rein)

lift one of your hands (lift dont pull) It sounds obvious and we all know that when you pull - the horse pulls, braces and balances on us - so it gets worse and the horse gets heavier.

Take a look at "natural horsemanship" Pat pirelli, Ken faulkner etc.
Get the horse to flex and youll get him to steer and stop

pm if you want any contacts

ps I can assure you that the sideways looks you will get out hunting with a rope halter are nothing compared with the happiness of being able to go out hunting without pulling your horses bottom jaw off.....Oh and the sideways looks you will get while extracting your horses head from the back end of a 18hh hunter!

or try a bit of Henry Blake
find a big enough field
set off, if he trots without asking then kick him on to a canter
if he canters without an ask - gallop
for every gear he goes up without an ask go up another
if he goes down a gear without an ask go up again and do another half mile
hell get it in the end or drop dead! - be consistant

Good luck
 
re: AngusH's last idea, of sending them on more to tire them out, only do this if the horse is very fit, and even then do it judiciously. i know of someone who broke a horse down to the point of shooting it when he did this.
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re the natural horsemanship - i can hack him at round the farm in a headcollar, i can ride in the school bareback and bridleless, at home he stops with the lift of the hands (not pulling just lifting). He stops from seat aids, canter-walks with a sigh.
I canter him round his field completely loose, ride him up to the field leading all the others from him. Hes only bad when in company and going faster than a jog
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Basically, hes very finely tuned to me as ive had him long enough but when he decides hes 3, it all goes completely out the window with a gust of wind
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Oh, and ive taken him to gallops and let him go, he went flat out for about 5 laps before i got scared he would injure himself and took another lap to pull him up!
I'm hoping the more I take him the better he'll be. Thats the theory anyway!
Its lucky he jumps and behaves out competing...
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There is a lot of truth in the observation made by AngusnH, about the position of the hands. Many years ago, we lived next door to an old time dealer of high class hunters. He told me that if he ever bought a horse that was 'impossibly strong' even for a man, he would get a lady, riding side saddle to hunt it, as invariably, her hand position had a profound effect on the horse, he said he had never known it fail!
 
had similar problems with my pony at first, tried all sorts and have found a cheltenham gag is the one thing that she really respects and she is now a dream! it's the poll pressure more than her mouth that she responds to as she too would set her neck and just lean on pelhams etc. hardly need a contact until as soon as i feel her start to take a hold in canter, a short tweek on one rein brings her straight back. only use a flash with mine, but a friend with point to pointers swears by a cheltenham gag and grackle combination, which you use at the mo. good luck!
 
"hell get it in the end or drop dead!"
You said track - would he give up on a hill or burst?

Sounds like you have covered all the bases, do you think the excitiment might be boiling him up on the gallops, we have just had a steep learning curve with a warmblood showing no signs of ulcers - scoping showed a lot of ulcers, he was pretty good at everything but somtimes on a long beach with a good gallop he would set up, switch off, and run - no steeriing no brakes, no fun.
maybe try a couple of doses of gastroguard the day before you go out, and on the day. stick with the softly softly approach and consider feeding chaff before riding out (puts an absorbant layer of food on top of stomach acid (vet?) having seen what I saw down the scope Im not surprised mine set to - it must have hurt like hell and heaping mouth pain on top couldnt have helped. Do you have the sort of vet you can ask?

Maybe get someone to video you at speed - do you change?
You sound like a pretty quality rider but are you giving cues to cause the bolting?
I have been known to throw my weight (and there is a fair bit of it) right forward - he then starts to fall into a mad gallop

good luck
 
Presumably teeth etc ok.

Is there a stuble field you can borrow? I ask because I used to ride an ex-race horse, she was absolutely gorgeous, but after 1 canter on a hack she used to go ballistic, so I took her around a stubble field and let her have her head (it was safe to do so). When she got tired and confused that I wasnt trying to stop her, she slowed down, but I asked her to keep going, she slowed again and this time I let her slow until she stopped.

I did this with her a few times on different occasions and it seemed to make her think twice about running off and she listened to me.

I would also rethink his hard feed ration and think about feeding a calming supplement.
 
He had his teeth done by an EDT 2 weeks ago
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Ive been thinking about trying a lever/controller noseband but they are horrendously expensive if its useless! I found one for £16 though which seems a bit dubious ...
http://www.divoza.co.uk/product773.aspx

Kerilli has very kindly lent a coscojero/consoquero (or whatever!) pelham so will be dragging my mother out on her pony to test the brakes!
 
Well firstly if you are having to haul you are damaging the mouth, so it would be better to try something else than carry on. I doubt at this age retraining is really an option

So if it were me, I'd try going down the route of the exotic and using brakes from the polo world.

A barry gag can be very effective as its very strong brakes and acts on the tongue, so can save the bars and corners of the mouth. However being a gag this raises the head, so you need to decide how your horse is running - head up or down or straight.
 
Barry gag is the next option after the coscojero pelham! I think the polo bits seem most worth a go. Also maybe a rope drop noseband? He goes well in his drop on the flat but does stretch it if I start jumping in it.
So many options, need to sort something out before hunting!
 
I concentrate on sorting the bit out and then play with the nosebands

To give you a weird example from polo, I had one polo pony that would run through everything (I'd ride off and keep going, rather embarrassing when playing for Ciren). I finally got the brakes sorted with a scamperdale pelham, as she only responded to heavy curb pressure. Shutting her mouth had no effect at all.
 
At risk of sounding incredibly defeatist, if the pony is horrific to hunt then why continue to try? Has noone else got one that she can hunt on if she is desperate to go?
My big horse is a fantasticly brave creature and would be fantastic to hunt if he would stop.. he does exactly the same as yours and wont even stop when the hunt does, not only embarrassing but having that little control is also dangerous.
My resolution was to stop trying, why distress him and myself and endager us and others in the process?
I'm sorry if you find this a little blunt but sometimes you just have to cut your losses and stick with what the horse does well. the more you mess with bits the more discomfort and damage you can cause, not every horse is designed to do everything you want it to do, just as not all humans are capable of doing everything asked of them.
I know it is difficult to guage tone on text but I am not ranting, just putting a different view on it.
Please think of your safety, hunting is a dangerous game on the safest of horses....
 
Had success with a Hanoverian pelham - rollers on the bar sections, jointed high port - couldn't lean cos the bit bends, poll pressure off the shanks.... worth a try if you can track one down.....
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Just a thought - I have a horse who hates flash and cavesson nosebands - he can't bear the pressure on his teeth through the skin. He opens his mouth and runs (and he's 17.2!) He goes in a grackle - have you tried not shutting his mouth so tightly - using a cavesson or flash? Would help not to shred it, but I appreciate it could give him more freedom!!
 
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