Bit for small mouth on "strong" pony

Gropony

Gropony

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Looking for recommendations for a bit for my pony who has a small mouth and can get "strong".

He is currently in a snaffle with fixed rings and quite large canons. I have also tried a snaffle with lozenge, normal snaffle with full cheeks, same in resin and a fully flexible rubber with loose rings like the Metalab.

My issue is that alone in the arena or with others at walk and trot I have no problem, he responds to the slightest touch. But outside or the minute it starts getting exciting I have zero brakes. He sets his neck, opens his mouth and goes. He was fine with the rubber one (no mouth opening etc) but I had no control.

Up to now I have been in the "should be solved through training" camp but honestly it can be dangerous. I have been working lots on the ground and lunge and can see that 1) it is hard for him to carry himself well, he prefers the head in the air way of going and 2) he dislikes even the slightest contact. I haven't lunged in the straight rubber bit, this was my next step. So I imagine it is a viscous circle - he goes, I close my fingers, he pulls because he hates the contact etc. But I cannot be in an arena with five others with him going full pelt round the outside.

So what would you do? Try a different bit for a short time to have the control and change to a milder one once he is better balanced and more confident? Or something different?

He is off work at the moment so I have time to think about this.
 
I'm working with a young rider on a VERY sharp Sec A at the minute, who runs off every time she spooks (no control, mouth wide open) We're just trying a grackle at the moment, rather than bit swap and its going much better. For a wide open mouth runner, swapping a bit isn't going to make much difference IME, so assuming all vet & saddle checks have been done, a noseband change can really help as a tool in the re-training.
 
Mullen mouth pelham with two reins? If you are able to ride with double reins and understand the different actions.
You can always put two reins on your usual bit and practise like that for a while to get used to the extra in your hand.
 
We had this with my daughters last horse. He schooled beautifully, really soft and responsive, walk trot canter and jumping in a school was fine I could ride him across any open space in walk and trot perfectly calmly, the second he was cantering in an open space, head in the air, neck set and gone.
We used a grackle and that helped, he also had a universal type bit, similar to below but with copper rings as he liked to fiddle with them which in turn softened his mouth and just made stuff easier!

 
I can only speak from my own experience - I have a tricky/strong/sensitive horse. Tried a million bits, generally goes nicely in a Bomber Happy Tongue, however has zero brakes when it suits. Grackle helps, as does a combination noseband or a Kineton. Stronger bits made him worse as he leans to evade, he hated a curb and any poll pressure, but the grackle & combination noseband give me some control back as he can't open his mouth and cross his jaw.

I still school him in a cavesson & snaffle as he opens his mouth and 'chomps' on the bit a lot out of anxiety and to be honest if it makes him feel better about life I'm fine with that, I don't want to strap him up and 'silence' him completely. But for jumping and fast work he goes in the Combination or Kineton so I have some control.

Funnily enough he actually seems happier in the stronger noseband than he does without it, I think he prefers that it spreads the pressure onto his nose and off his mouth. I keep trying to get brave enough to try a hackamore with him!
 
Might be worth getting a bit fitter out who can bring a range to try so they can find something comfortable for his mouth conformation that also gives you some brakes when you need them.

My Welsh D did quite well in a Neu Schulz Wilkie for exciting stuff as he used to get very strong & would try to pull my arms out in his usual loose ring (again absolutely fine and polite and responsive to weight aids if he was on his own or not doing exciting stuff… not so fine out hunting!) but something like a Pelham or gag (think you can get pony versions if a small mouth) with 2 reins could also be a good option as then you only use the stronger action when you need it.
 
Thank you all. It is so frustrating and I don't want to make it worse.

I did buy a kimblewick just before he was off work, but it is jointed. I think he will hate it so I might exchange it for a straight one with a port. I couldn't easily ride with two reins these days. I will look at the other ones as well.

Also a good point about the noseband.

My teacher also pointed out that it doesn't matter what I put in his mouth if I don't anticipate when he is going to go, because he knows full well he is stronger than me. So work to do there as well.
 
I would agree that either kimblewick or a kineton are worth a try.
The other option would be to pop a sliphead on the bridle and try him with an English hackamore in addition to the current snaffle- that way you have the action of the curb rein but it doesn't matter if he opens his mouth. You also only need use that rein when he's tanking off, it can be left loose otherwise.
 
I used to use a Wilkie on a strong Exmoor. I did move onto a Matrix bitless and used the hackamore setting on that. I found he was much easier to stop with nose pressure than mouth, as he used to tuck his head right in to evade contact when he took off. There was definitely a training issue (lack of) in my case, though!
 
I will give a kimblewick a try when he is back in work. Because it will coincide with spring grass consumption going up and I fear it might be a challenge.
 
I bit (and if necessary noseband) up in open spaces to get the training in, then in most cases we can drop back down again. You can’t train a horse in the environment it needs help in, if you have no control!

Mostly I pop in a universal or Dutch gag on second ring, they feel thr difference and go, ‘Fine. You’ve got me.’ Then we move the rein up to the middle ring after a while and eventually swap back out to a snaffle for everyday riding. I would add a lever before a harsher mouthpiece but I know others do it the other way around.
 
Quick update. Whilst deciding which bit to try I decided to lunge using a straight, rubber, loose ring bit that I had that offered a bit of tongue relief. I never dared ride in it. The difference was interesting. No opening the mouth, he reached down into the contact. So I braved it and rode alone in the arena and he was great, very responsive. I have now ridden with others, as has my sharer, and so far he is calm and responsive.

I am under no illusions that if he did decide to go that I could stop him in this. And I haven't jumped him in it. But it gave me food for thought for the mouthpiece.
 
Gropony said:
Thank you all. It is so frustrating and I don't want to make it worse.

I did buy a kimblewick just before he was off work, but it is jointed. I think he will hate it so I might exchange it for a straight one with a port. I couldn't easily ride with two reins these days. I will look at the other ones as well.

Also a good point about the noseband.

My teacher also pointed out that it doesn't matter what I put in his mouth if I don't anticipate when he is going to go, because he knows full well he is stronger than me. So work to do there as well.
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If he doesn't like jointed maybe a nathe Dutch gag
 
That’s an interesting update. If he raises his head prior to taking off, how about a running martingale. Not to stop him raising it but to alter the actions of the bit. Even a standing might be worth trying depending how high he raises his head.
 
Lucky Snowball said:
That’s an interesting update. If he raises his head prior to taking off, how about a running martingale. Not to stop him raising it but to alter the actions of the bit. Even a standing might be worth trying depending how high he raises his head.
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When he really goes I can see his nostrils so I think it is almost horizontal.
 
Gropony said:
Quick update. Whilst deciding which bit to try I decided to lunge using a straight, rubber, loose ring bit that I had that offered a bit of tongue relief. I never dared ride in it. The difference was interesting. No opening the mouth, he reached down into the contact. So I braved it and rode alone in the arena and he was great, very responsive. I have now ridden with others, as has my sharer, and so far he is calm and responsive.

I am under no illusions that if he did decide to go that I could stop him in this. And I haven't jumped him in it. But it gave me food for thought for the mouthpiece.
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I'm a big believer in the horse choosing the mouthpiece he's comfortable with and you choosing the cheeks you need to give you control. My old boy Archie was the perfect lesson in that. He was just as you describe - great until he wasn't and when he wasn't I stood no chance. We couldn't replicate the exciting circumstances that made him very strong so it was a very difficult to train it out of him.

We ended up with different bits for different things. It took a lot of trial and error to get the right ones for the right situations. He hated anything jointed, even with a lozenge and went very nicely in a hanging cheek mullen mouth snaffle 95% of the time - for flat work and everyday hacking. For exciting stuff - jumping (before he had to give that up) and more exciting hacking like the beach and fun rides wee ended up with a waterford 3 ring gag with 2 reins. I usually tied the bottom rein up and only grabbed it if I needed it, I called it the emergency handbrake. We tried so many and these were the only two he was happy in - he really fought and argued with a lot of others that weren't as strong but he settled in the waterford almost straight away. That's what I mean about the horse choosing the mouthpiece. Logically the waterford didn't make sense if he liked the mullen mouth but he was comfortable and that's half the battle. Having said that, I still didn't have enough brakes in a waterford hanging cheek so upped it to the three ring. I chose the cheeks that gave me the control I needed and we ended up with something we were both happy with.

The other thing that made a huge difference to him was a Micklem bridle. My instructor has a theory that the anatomical claims it makes aren't why some horses go really well, what it does is hold the bit very still in the mouth and if horses like that, it can make a big difference. This certainly seemed to be the case with Archie and because he didn't spend the whole time arguing with the bit, when I used it, he listened.

A tom thumb can often be good on a pony with a small mouth but I'm not sure you'd get the tongue relief he seems to like with that. Worth a try though.
 
Thank you for this and it makes sense.

I looked at the Micklem bridle. I understand the concept but I struggle to see how the noseband wouldn't sit really low on his nose given that he has a short mouth. Interesting though.
 
Dex HATES anything with a joint or port in it so he is in a straight bar rubber pelham for hacking and the same again for schooling (but I got the YO's husband to cut the shanks off so it's now a hanging cheek, I couldn't find a rubber straight snaffle for love nor money!) - if they choose a mouthpiece I find it's best to stick with it, he will be full body tense with his ears up my nose in literally anything else.

It's easier with him as it's hacking vs schooling so very clear distinction in what bit is required - Dex does get strong sometimes in the school with others in there though and if he does and half halts etc aren't working I whip him round on a teeny tiny circle and he has to slow/sit himself up to get his balance and then we carry on from there, it gets him to engage brain just enough for me to break the moment. Might be worth trying.
 
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