Bit of a moan about judging at events

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Thistle

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OK, before I get lynched, I am extremely grateful to the hundreds of volunteers who give up their time to judge so we and our loved ones can compete.

However the last twice out at BE we have had problems.

2 weeks ago a judge gave Bee 2 stops at a fence she stopped at once, resulting in a cummulative elimination, luckily it was the last but one fence and she completed,and we spoke to the fence judge who said that she had since spoken to the technical Advisor (lots of people did the same thing, it was a corner with a long route, glance off the corner , reroute to the long route but in doing so you have to cross your tracks, no other approach to the fence, a bit like the corner in Huntsmans close at Badminton), and was told by the TA that it was to be given as 1 stop, but the score sheets had gone in and were not altered. Had to speak to scorers (who I know are busy people and don't want disturbing) to get score altered.

Yesterday in SJ, jumped into double on a very bad stride, had 1st part down and pony couldn't get stride to jump out and stopped. Eventually judge rang bell, young helpers wandered over and put pole back, took so long Bee had to walk 2 circles, rang bell when Bee still in walk and she jumped through nicely. She was given 14 time faults, this pony always gets a move on SJ and never gets time faults even on very tight courses. Having watched others who had stops, even those who used all the arena and went in a much slower rhythm, only got a few faults, some got none. I guess the clock didn't stop whilst the pole was put back.

Unable to complain as we didn't have any evidence as not videoed or anything, we put it down to experience. Was costly though as she then went clear XC.

I feel a bit peed off though as I paid £75 each time for entry (including start fee) as as such would expect the judges and helpers to be properly trained.

From now on I will be recording everything, but don't want to become one of those awful people who moan about everything, which is why we left it yesterday.
 
That happened to me a while back said i got eliminated xc when i got clear, but as i didnt too well we didnt bother with it, but thats still not fair really?
 
Happened to me the other week, my horse pecked on landing so i had to circle him in between 2 jumps quite close together, but labled seperately, they counted that as a run out. i didnt complain because i did have a stop at the next so didnt see the point, although it makes his record look worse but o well.
 
Think I might know where you were!

What disappointed me was the dressage judging. We noticed that at one ring the judge clearly knew the professional riders personally and even rolled down a window and greeted them before and after thier test.

Now admittedly they rode decent tests but you cant tell me that the judge was totally unbiased... they are only human afterall. One of the riders rode an errors of course but the judge didnt sound the horn and laughed about it with the rider when they were still standing at G at the end of the test.

(I have to add that we werent competing so this is not sour grapes).
 
I know you have mentioned that you appreciate judges give up their time voluntarily. We do a lot at BE events, BD and some local stuff, in between 2 very full time jobs, 2 horses, dog, cat, friends and family. A lot of people that volunteer at these events aren't even riders - they have a interest and despite that interest often don't have the knowledge and understanding of actions by horses and riders. It will take more riders to come forward and give their time if you expect things to improve. People like us fortunately have a knoweledge and understanding of horses, eventing and dressgae however neither I or my partner would have the time to go on any training events and would simply not bother volunteeting if that was the expectation.

Now, I may get lynched for saying this (and it's not aimed at you at all) BUT if we all prepared our horses properly and were competing at the levels we are comfortable at and were doing neat dressage tests, doing well SJ without stops and run outs (knocking poles is pretty black and white) and the same cross country then there wouldn't be any of this problem and we wouldn't need to be blaming judges. So...maybe people need to look at the levels they are competing at before they apportion blame to third parties. If it was all simple an clear then the judges would simply just tick that "clear" box.
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I think every person who has ever competed has had that kind of thing happen to them.
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Unfortunately it doesn't matter what mod cons there are, you can not escape human error.
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Sounds like you have had a bad run of it. Perhaps you will be in for some good luck from now on.
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Then there would be know one in the classes with your idea cus no one will be ready and everyone would be in the GB team winning gold
 
Not quite no - think about what I said. If people were competing at the levels where they can do well then there might be less incidents of this happening. For example instead of having a stop at 3' because you're pushing yourself or your horse beyond their comfort zone, compete at 2'9 and reap the success and jump clear - that's what I'm saying. We're not all out to win gold at the Olympics, but we are out to have a good day and if stops, eliminations and confusions over those are spoiling these days then lower your sights and compete at a more comfortable level. This is why I quit trying to event and switched to dressage - horse was more than capable to event and still is with my partner, but since switching to BD we've been winning and placed every time out - I'm happier and not beating myself up about it. I'm competing at something I'm better at instead of pushing myself because I think I want to do it. I'm not saying Thistle was competing beyond his/her limits but often people do and then blame others for being incompetent.
 


Now, I may get lynched for saying this (and it's not aimed at you at all) BUT if we all prepared our horses properly and were competing at the levels we are comfortable at and were doing neat dressage tests, doing well SJ without stops and run outs (knocking poles is pretty black and white) and the same cross country then there wouldn't be any of this problem and we wouldn't need to be blaming judges. So...maybe people need to look at the levels they are competing at before they apportion blame to third parties. If it was all simple an clear then the judges would simply just tick that "clear" box.
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So if we were all to go by that principle we would never ever bother leaving home, or ever progress beyond 2'6".

Horses can have off days, or sometimes just struggle a bit with a certain movement or discipline. As long as the combination is safe and happy why shouldn't they try to compete at a decent level.

My moan is that you go affiliated to jump better courses and to have a better more consistent standard of judging. At well over £100 to join BE and £75 a class to compete you should get a decent standard of judging.

Yes there is always human error, but with better training and preparation mistakes would happen less often. I know that with several hundred horses running not everyone will come home happy, we are very happy, mare did a nice little test and clear XC, she is normally a very talented SJ'er rarely making a mistake, yesterday was a bit of a one off, however to give her that many time faults when the bell had been rung is unfortunate and did ultimately affect her XC score too as she just hacked her round rather than going for the time on a very hot day.

Just seem to have had 2 bad runs consecutively.

BTW I do fence judge and also give up my time to help at PC. As a business we also sponsor a whole group of BE events, so I am well aware of the need to put something back into the sport!
 
Think yourself lucky! I've been on a competitive round in a open intermedite (ie going like s41t off a stick) only to be flagged down 8 strides out from a bounce into water!!
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I must admit i was a little rude to the judge as i saw the horse in front have the problem 2 fences after this complex they didn't need to stop me till the next fence which was a plain one!!
The SJ... that happens cos its faults per second,its the luck of the draw to which way you are pointing when the bell goes!
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Oh what rotten luck and very disheartening for your daughter. I thought JRN classes were supposed to encourage youngsters! Without that 'muddle' she would have finished quite a bit higher up the order - onwards and upwards
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No not at all - there are horses and riders out there that can progress beyond 2'6 and are capable of doing so. That is not what I was saying at all and none of it is aimed at your particular situation - I know full well that horses and riders can have off days, it's the nature of the game. In general there are a lot of people that affiliate to BE, BD and BSJA that aren't ready and push themselves beyond that limit and end up scaring themselves, the horse or just not having an enjoyable experience. It is then blamed on the course, the judging, the ground, etc. etc.

Part of the satisfaction in competing is the progress that you make as a partnership - why does it have to be rushed? Why not spend a little more time at a certain level before moving up? Out litte TB has done 3 seasons of PN now and is comfortable at that level. He has the scope and ability to go further but will only do so when we're confident that he'll cope with the SJ (his weak link) at Novice. All the work is being put in at home and hopefully by the end of the season he'll have done one. The same goes for his dressage. He's won or been placed every time affiliated novice and could go and do elementry, but I'm sure he wouldn't have the same success quite yet, so why put myself through what wouldn't be such and enjoyable day by not coming home with a rossie?

Sorry, I'm rambling and I'm also sorry if I've offended you by saying what I have but I know what I'm trying to say in my head.
 
You haven't offended me at all, we just look at it differently.

We are never disappointed to not get a rosette, to me if you expect a rosette every time out then you should progress and move up a level and challenge yourself and the horse.

As I said we were very happy with the pony's performance, just that there was no way she could have accreud that number of time faults, even with having to wait, unless the clock had not been stopped. The horse before her made a similar mistake but left the first part up, he rode a slower rhythm all together and didn't get any time. He was lucky I guess!
 
Maybe some should move up a level, but I think I'm at about my little TB's limit dressage wise - he will do well at elementary but will struggle a little with the more collected stuff. Eventing wise it's down to confidence of rider who is happy at that level and wishing to stay in one piece! LOL! Hence the fact I have a new horse who will hoepfully take me further and has a completely different movement and jump - just got to learn to ride him first!
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I have to say when we are paying this much for affiliation fees and entry fees the judges can damn well get it right - sorry this is a sore point for me - even though i've only ever had one run in with a judge BSJA (who is well known for being ridiculous)
Sorry for the rant but its a lot of money and we deserve to be judged properly for the amount that we pay
 
I hear you Thistle and understand your frustration.

I was at mattingley, a fence judge wouldnt let a rider continue until she had confirmation if what she had witnessed was a horse fall or not. In the meantime rider was walking around, judge couldnt get through to who she wanted. I and another watch the incident and knew it wasnt a horse fall, so judge in the end let rider continue.
I guess you have to learn somewhere, but i do think there should be more help ie video footage or a proper induction on what crossing your tracks, horse falls and alternative fences etc really means.

The sjing one is frustrating, i wanna know when they actually stop the clock if you have a stop and hit the fence. I had the same problem ie horse hit the first part of a double into a novice combi, pole was in the way and horse ran out of the 2nd part. Again i got truck loads of time, on a usually very speed horse.

Before I get lynched, I steward, fence judge, score collect and dressage write at a number of events every single year.
 
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I have to say when we are paying this much for affiliation fees and entry fees the judges can damn well get it right - sorry this is a sore point for me - even though i've only ever had one run in with a judge BSJA (who is well known for being ridiculous)
Sorry for the rant but its a lot of money and we deserve to be judged properly for the amount that we pay

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Yes Nods head.

Also from what I can see of Thistle daughter she is well up to the level and was doing this level at PC last year.

She mostly jumps clear SJ at BE Novice so do you now stop doing that after one bad run at one fence???? ad now do pre novice..... also with entries being so long you could have a bad run and not beable to move down for weeks afterwards

We have a 16 yrs 17hh horse that we only run at PreN he has ran Novice in the past doing double clears but is much happier at PreN so we stick to that but sometimes he has a fence or 2 down SJ or a run out at a corner, he has also won 2 PreN and had lots of high placing so if we have stop should we do Intro or are we pothunting at PreN cus he gets high placed????
 
I agree - we do pay a lot and deserve to have things done correctly. The only answer therefore is to pay people for their time which means either an increase in entry fees or less spent on preparing courses and venues which means it will give people something else to complain about. It is and individuals choice to pay so much for affiliation and the premium for competing in affiliated classes - if people don't like it then don't pay it, simple. A number of us compete and volunteer so can see it from both sides. If I have a bad day I'm not going to start blaming judges. As I said earlier a huge number of people we've come across that give their time up aren't riders or are happy hackers and do it to be part of something they possibly don't want to do, they therefor then don't have the knowledge or experience that some of us may have. If we're going to complain about it then we need to get a similar policy to eveniting in Ireland where members must complete 2 duty days each year, a bit like our RC's do. If you can't do it then find someone to do it for you. If we want more affiliated competition days then we are either going to have to accept a drop in standards and put up with it, or we do something about it and get out there and lead the way. If you know that things bug you take one day out of competing and go and do it to show them what you expect.
 
I totally agree thistle. If you stick at a level that you are guaranteed to jump a double clear every single time, then to me that is verging towards pothunting, what is wrong with moving up a level and challenging yourself and your horse.
In your situation your daughter is well established at JRN, and was just unlucky to have 2 consecutive runs with some "dodgy" judging.
Fingers crossed that she is trouble free her next run.
Fiona
 
I dont think we or BE can win!!

You cant please eveyone - But I do agree results and jump judging should be better trained.

I have many times had penalties when I shouldnt have and had a clear once when I had a stop!
 
Part of the problem yesterday was that the SJ was running very late. They cancelled the course walk to catch up., and were ringing the bell to start before the previous person had left the arena, virtually as they landed through the finish the bell went again.. You can only get to 2 sides of the SJ ring so difficult to judge lines and distances when unable to walk the course. Yes it was the same for everyone unless they had been there at crack of dawn when all the novice sections started, but that sort of thing is not why we pay the extra fees to affiliate.

At Brigstock 2 weeks ago the SJ steward had a right go at Bee for not going into the ring when told. The whole time she was shouting at her the steward was holding the rope across the entrance, it wasn't until she stopped to draw breath that Bee hesitantly said, 'if you open the rope I will go in!!!!!'
 
Don't even talk to me about running late! FORTY MINUTES I was waiting to go cross country at Little Downham. I stoked my little fat hunter up before I went to the start box and then fell at Fence 4. I didn't blame the cross country steward for that but I'm sure some people would have.

The bell should go the minute you've stopped and knocked the fence surely? I did wonder watching Bee how she got 14 time as she was going round in a good rhythm and not wasting any time by going really wide on the turns.
 
Having spent a day last week writing for the dressage at a HT, I am afraid to day this was all too common. Had a look at the list for the the judge to say "oooo have we got any names" (which we did)
Then lots of name dropping, and when 'the names' came over to ride their test-lots of coo-ing and very high marks.
They did ride good tests-and one was very good indeed which got top marks, but none were any better than the average test in the section, and I did feel there was a sense that 'so and so's' test mark was bumped up because they were who they were rather than just another competitor. Infact, one 'name' was a previous pupil of the judge, so marked very laxly despite non-descript test.
 
I'm pleased it wasn't just me being paranoid then!

The annoying thing about the lateness is that it was caused by the earlier competitors not being ready on time. As far as I am aware there were no holds on course. When we walked the course just after midday horses were few and far between. This wasn't helped by them having to keep swapping the order after they had told you that you would go in 2 or 3, to keep fitting in the pro's with multiple rides. We saw one with 7 horses tied to the lorry!
 
I was on time earlier in the day, honest!
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I know what you mean about them slotting multiple riders in, but they must have had times that were impossible to make, or the showjumping was making them late xc. Earlier in the day when I took Hector round there were 2 warming up when I was, then later about 22!
 
I do quite a lot of judging at horse and hunter trails and the sum total of my training has revoved around the use of radio, whistle and how to complete score cards. I usually get given a leaflet with penalty instructions and examples but have to read this when the competition is underway because no other time is given.

I am happy to volunteer, happy to drive considerable distances using my own fuel, happy to take my chance with the weather, happy to take a pack up lunch, even happy to try to pee quietly behind a bush because no loo breaks are given, and providing I consistently mark every horse that passes me, whether that be harsher one day than the next I think I am doing a pretty good service. If someone is unhappy about a mark I have given they are welcome to take that up with the organisers and lodge an objection.

If anyone wants to professionalise my service and give me a wage for doing so I will be happy to give up more of my time to attend training courses on how to jump judge, however there are usually so many of us out there on the course can BE members afford us?
 
As well as competing I fence judge at 4 events each year. At the events that I help out at the briefing is reasonably detailed but many of the judges are not riders and probably don't know the rules that well. We are encouraged to ask the help of the TD if in doubt, draw a daigram of what has happened etc. The other point to note is that we are told if in doubt give the penalty - the reason being that once a rider is told they are clear then it would be impossible to add faults, it's easier to take them away. If you really think that you shouldn't be given the faults then you can complain.
Some decisions are very difficult and we don't have the opportunity to look at video evidence. In theory if a rider decides to change route (to a long route) then that's ok if the horse changes it's mind that's not.
In the majority of cases the fence judges get it right but we are only human.
Also as said by others if we had to pay for professional fence judges the cost of competing would be prohibitive. Attending a briefing at 8am and finishing after 6pm with the only loo break a dash to the nearest trees I'm not sure how much I would charge !
 
I am a BSJA judge. The timing stops the second the bell is rung. The timing starts again the second the bell is rung for you to start your round. I see countless people half a mile away from the fence when the bell goes and then wonder why they get time faults! Always watch the course builder and be ready to go when the fence is up, ie cantering, facing the right direction and not the other side of the ring. That way you will avoid time penalties. If the clock had been going when they put the fence up you would have had a lot more than 14 time penalties.
hope that helps.
 
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